Christian Trinity and Muslim's Tauwheed [monotheism] = Same God? A Clarification.

RoseGold said:
Intercede? That is the key word. So, in asking Mary to help... you cannot ask God directly? I'm just curious. No priest could ever offer me a decent enough answer. That's why Islam made so much sense to me. One God. The One to ask for help. So simple. So easy. So beautiful.
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I agree, it is the key word. Of course, one can go directly to God. And in my humble opinion going directly makes all the sense in the world. But I have to admit that what makes sense to me doesn't always to othes. What they do is not contrary the Christian teachings (at least I don't think so), so while it is unnecessary doesn't make it any more wrong than me asking my neighbor to interceed and offer prayers on my behalf either, or the Muslim who asks Muhammad to interceed for him/her at the time of the resurrection at the final judgment. Intercession simply is not the same as worship. If it is, then both Catholics and Muslims have something to be concerned about. Thank God I'm neither.


Whatsthepoint said:
Yes, but not pray as in ask her for help but pray as in ask her to intercede.
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To my understanding, these terms really mean pretty much the same thing. Intercession is just asking someone else to help you with your prayers or whatever it is your are praying for. In the case of Catholics who pray for Mary to intercede for them, they are asking for her to help them in petitioning for God's help. Mary's help is limited to offering up more prayers, while God actually effects the answer to those prayers. Some Catholics may think that it is Mary who answers their prayers, but they are wrong and are giving her credit for work that is done not by her, but by God. It is sort of like me thanking the receptionist at the auto store for seeing to it that my car got repaired. She just sent the order to the shop mechanics who did the real work, but I still thank her as she is the one that served as my conduit to them. Fortunately, as Rose asked above, we don't actually have to use middlemen to approach God.
 
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Whatsthepoint said:
No, it's not praying Mary for help, it's asking Mary to pray to or ask God to help.
I'd like you to find the slightest indication of Mary being god in the Bible, on indication, that's it.
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It clearly says that SHE is inclined to aid spontaneously. Not ask God to aid them.

let me readdress the main point of contention. You said that Christians don't see Mary as a god. Yet I have shown you that prayers such as these show similarities to worship. Is it not enough for you that even Christians think that some prayers are approaching or at god level devotion? Even if people do not MEAN to pray to her as a god, these things treat her like one. Allah has forbidden this and stated that you should address HIM for these things.

My point stands and I don't need to cite from the Bible.
 
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Grace Seeker said:
or the Muslim who asks Muhammad to interceed for him/her at the time of the resurrection at the final judgment.
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lol I had to laugh at this bit. The difference between us asking for intercession is that the prophet p.b.u.h will be there. We won't be praying. The prophet p.b.u.h is dead. as is Mary. We cannot contact either. In attempting to do so could be classed as worship.
 
AntiKarateKid said:
I'm not a scholar. Thats all I am saying. Scholar vs scholar with literary proofs = eye opener. One states something, the other attempts to disprove it. Falsehoods will show sooner or later when the convoluted and ridiculous defenses of falsehood are readily seen.
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And yet you seem to continually miss them even as they are presented right in front of your face.
 
AntiKarateKid said:
It clearly says that SHE is inclined to aid spontaneously. Not ask God to aid them.

let me readdress the main point of contention. You said that Christians don't see Mary as a god. Yet I have shown you that prayers such as these show similarities to worship. Is it not enough for you that even Christians think that some prayers are approaching or at god level devotion?

My point stands and I don't need to cite from the Bible.
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As I said, those are Catholic prayers, written by humans, only Catholic use them and they represent half the World's Christian population.
No Catholic nor any other Christians believe Mary is a god, Catholics will even admit their admiration of Mary doesn't come from the Bible but from their Tradition.
There are prayers to saints, to guardian angels, to the Holy Spirit etc, that may appear as worship, why doesn't the Quran address those?
Why does the Quran mention Mary, who nobody claims is a god and not the Holy Spirit who Christians actually believe is a god?
 
RoseGold said:
lol I had to laugh at this bit. The difference between us asking for intercession is that the prophet p.b.u.h will be there. We won't be praying. The prophet p.b.u.h is dead. as is Mary. We cannot contact either. In attempting to do so could be classed as worship.
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True that. He ( pbuh) will only be there to speak for us, not granting us powers or divine protection from him, that is from Allah.
 
Grace Seeker said:
Actually that is not the Christian's MAIN belief. Our main belief is that Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected to bring us life.

But let me ask you that question in return. I should be most interested in your answer. As I have expressed elsewhere (earlier in this thread), I tend to think that Muslims have a completely different understanding of what the term "begotten" means in the context in which it is used in the Bible than Christians do. So, please, what do you think it is that Christians mean when we refer to Jesus in the creeds of the church as "begotten, not made" or in those English translations of the Bible that speak of Jesus as God's "only begotten son"?

For if you mean something different by it than what Christians do, then you complaint is not with genuine Christianity, but with some fabricated religion created by Islam that has nothing to do with Christian beliefs afterall.
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Thankyou Grace Seeker,

A very well known member in faith has helped with the understanding and has clarified it for me. So to answer your question above, this is what I now understand thanks to the member in faith....

"The Christian belief is that Christ, the Son of God, is God incarnate in human flesh. The term "begotten" is an English translation of the Greek word monogenes which is more accurately described as "unique" or "only". In fact, the word begotten isn't even used in the newer translations for the reason stated above."

So thanks once again to the members clarification I now understand the christians view is that Jesus is not really the Son of god but is God himself who came in the flesh and walked the earth as part of his creation.
 
coddles76 said:
Thankyou Grace Seeker,

A very well known member in faith has helped with the understanding and has clarified it for me. So to answer your question above, this is what I now understand thanks to the member in faith....

"The Christian belief is that Christ, the Son of God, is God incarnate in human flesh. The term "begotten" is an English translation of the Greek word monogenes which is more accurately described as "unique" or "only". In fact, the word begotten isn't even used in the newer translations for the reason stated above."

So thanks once again to the members clarification I now understand the christians view is that Jesus is not really the Son of god but is God himself who came in the flesh and walked the earth as part of his creation.
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Coddles, thank-you for listening. I figure that Muslims consider that idea just as much shirk as the other, but at least we can be accused of shirk for the right reason. Whoever helped you with that understanding got it exactly right.

Are you interested in where the term "begotten" came from, and why it was chosen in some of the older translations? It won't change any of your basic beliefs, but it might help with some of the nuances of the Christian understanding of the Trinity.
 
Grace Seeker said:
Coddles, thank-you for listening. I figure that Muslims consider that idea just as much shirk as the other, but at least we can be accused of shirk for the right reason. Whoever helped you with that understanding got it exactly right.
QUOTE]

Thankyou Grace Seeker,
I always listen to the christians points of explanation and I also thank the member who gave me this explanation. It helps me to strengthen my faith in the true Way of life and Deen of Allah SWT. I have already thanked you before for that and I also thank this member aswell.
I also thankyou for confirming the explanation. I will now allow the people who read this thread draw there own conclusions of what they think of God walking amongst us and whether they think this is a degrading of his almighty attributes.

Are you interested in where the term "begotten" came from, and why it was chosen in some of the older translations? It won't change any of your basic beliefs, but it might help with some of the nuances of the Christian understanding of the Trinity.
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Feel free to explain it to me, once again I like to listen and strengthen my faith.
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Muslims say everyone else is going to hell,christians vice versa everyone slanders each others religion every religion has there points to show there religion is right and the others is wrong end of the day if God is the most mercifull why would god make mankind in order to send the minority to heaven and the majority to to hell by the way i'm muslim so dont think i'm here to anger muslims or slander the koran its just my opinion anf to tell the truth you have to admit it makes sense
 
Assalamu alaikum

Muslims respect and believe in all the prophets which Allah sent for the guidance of mankind. We especially hold Jesus (alaihi salam) is high esteem and regard him as a pious messenger of Allah. I think Muslims and Christians can become united in our belief in Jesus and in his message - his true message. Jesus was not divine, and in fact he emphasized that he was just a human being. According to the bible, once a rich person came to Jesus and addressed him as "Good Teacher", to which Jesus replied:

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone" (Mark 10:18)

Some Christian apologists claim this verse is not a clear and direct statement of Jesus claiming he is not divine. However, if you read the verse in context, you will find that the rich man talking to Jesus stops calling him "good teacher" and refers to him only as "teacher"

"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy." (Mark 10:20)

So if Jesus was affirming his divinity, why this particular companion of his stop referring to him as "Good teacher" and simply called him "teacher" when Jesus said only God is good?
 
Fazl Ahmad said:
Assalamu alaikum

Muslims respect and believe in all the prophets which Allah sent for the guidance of mankind. We especially hold Jesus (alaihi salam) is high esteem and regard him as a pious messenger of Allah. I think Muslims and Christians can become united in our belief in Jesus and in his message - his true message. Jesus was not divine, and in fact he emphasized that he was just a human being. According to the bible, once a rich person came to Jesus and addressed him as "Good Teacher", to which Jesus replied:

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone" (Mark 10:18)

Some Christian apologists claim this verse is not a clear and direct statement of Jesus claiming he is not divine. However, if you read the verse in context, you will find that the rich man talking to Jesus stops calling him "good teacher" and refers to him only as "teacher"

"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy." (Mark 10:20)

So if Jesus was affirming his divinity, why this particular companion of his stop referring to him as "Good teacher" and simply called him "teacher" when Jesus said only God is good?
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I can think of multiple reasons:
1) The man was being challenged to make a statemen of faith that he did believe in Jesus as God and the man was not willing to do so.
2) The man didn't get Jesus' point at all, and after being excessive in his initial salutation, reverted to a more mundane form for the remainder of the conversation. I see this as common practice between lots of people. I have a friend who I call my best friend, and I might introduce him that way to someone on an initial greeting, but I don't continue to repeat the adjective after that every time I refer to him as my friend.

There are also other reasons that Jesus might have questioned his use of the word "good" beyond trying to say that he should not have referred to Jesus as good. In fact I don't think that was Jesus' point at all.
 
openminded said:
if God is the most mercifull why would god make mankind in order to send the minority to heaven and the majority to to hell
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I won't speak for Islam, but according to Christian theology he didn't.

Christians believe God made mankind for the express purpose to enjoy fellowship with him forever. Mankind turned its collective back on God and walked away from that fellowship. This was an act of mankind's free will, not God's will. In Christ, God entered mankind's world in order to provide a way for every human being back to God. Only those that reject that way are left to continue on the path they have already started down when they turned their back on God and live without God, and thus end up in hell.

Note that in the Christian understanding God offers redemption to all men, it is only those who refuse this offer to end up in hell condemned not so much by God, but by their own rejection for of God and then of his offer of redemption from the path of destructiion they entered out of their own willful disobedience. to God's will.
 
RoseGold said:
Intercede? That is the key word. So, in asking Mary to help... you cannot ask God directly? I'm just curious. No priest could ever offer me a decent enough answer. That's why Islam made so much sense to me. One God. The One to ask for help. So simple. So easy. So beautiful.
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As a Protestant I complete agree with you.
I am in direct relationship with God - no middlemen needed. :statisfie
I can speak to and ask God directly anytime and anywhere.
As far as I understand, both Protestants and Catholics believe this.

As I said in my previous post:
glo said:
We have had discussions on this topic very recently in the 'Questions for Christians' thread, if you want to check there.
Christians believe that we can address God in prayer directly, but Catholics also ask saints to plead to God on their behalf.
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As Keltoi said in another post, it isn't really that different to me asking another believer to pray (make dua) for me. That's not a strange concept in Islam either, is it??

RoseGold said:
So we're back to the worship point. In thinking Mary can hear and answer our prayers that is giving her a God-like status
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I don't think I have ever heard anybody suggest that Mary an answers prayer ... only that she intercedes to God on the person's behalf.

Salaam
 
Mary is dead and her body has mingled with dust. Nevermind answering prayers, she does not even have the power to hear them.
 
Greetings and peace be with you all,

I am a Catholic and find it a great sense of joy working and praying with Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists and others. We encourage each other when we go out into the community as Street Pastors, trying to bring a little peace into our community.

I find it a sadness that we are not able to pray and work alongside non- Christians at the moment.

I have no further comments as to how I pray as a Catholic, I search for a relationship with God and my neighbours, whoever they may be.

Blessings and peace be with you all

Eric
 
Eric H said:
I find it a sadness that we are not able to pray and work alongside non- Christians at the moment.
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Muslims feel the same way. We all have one and the same God. Yet we can't find peace and understanding together. knowledge is the killer of ignorance, but at the moment relgions can't come together peacefully.
 
coddles76 said:
I now understand the christians view is that Jesus is not really the Son of god but is God himself who came in the flesh and walked the earth as part of his creation.
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...but why do Christians call Jesus (as) the Son of God? They often end their prayers "...In the name of your Son, Jesus". How can an entity be the "son of someone" and at the same time be that "someone"?
 

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