how authentic is a hadith really?

In the Quran it tells us to obey Allah swt and His messenger. Now hypothetically speaking, if we did disregard the hadith, how exactly would we obey the messenger? By following his sunnah? His sunnah is compiled by ahadith.

The Quranist argument is totally flawed. If, and that's a big if, we were told to believe in the Quran alone, then I believe Allah swt would have made this explicit in the Quran, but what's explicit is the FACT that both the Quran and Sunnah go hand in hand. Regardless of what anyone else says.

format_quote Originally Posted by syed1

the argument is that since it is being "reported" "said" "heard" that the prophet, "did" "said" "Acted" in such a way, who are we to claim that these things are actually factual...

Assalamu Alaykum brother.

hadeeth is not just a hearsay. There is a complete science related to it : "science(s) of hadeeth". Ulama', beginning with sahaba then their tabe'in (those who followed them) who are based on the recommendation of rasul Allah to not report something erroneous about him : the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not tell lies about me, for whoever tells lies about me will enter Hell.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 106. And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever narrates a hadeeth from me that he thinks is false is one of the liars.” Narrated by Muslim (1).

The Ulama' and mohadditheen (reporters) where devoted to report only the hadeeths they directly take from trustworthy scholars. The hadeeth collectors like Imam Bukhary (rahimahu Allah) do not report hadeeths just from hearsay, they used to travel to the farthest places of the world to meet a sound scholar who himself got the hadeeth from a trustworthy source.
After hadeeth collecting, Ulama' al hadeeth made a set of rules to check if a hadeeth is authentic and they categorized hadeeths to degrees of authenticity : sahih, hasan, dha'if. They put mechanisms to detect if a hadeeth is authentic based on the chain of reporters (if all the successive reporters are trustworthy) and based on the content of the hadeeth : how conform is it with general islamic rules and with other authentic sources (quran, other authentic hadeeths).

Saying that "hadeeth in general is not authentic or is only based on hearsay and is subject to errors" is not correct, and is really dangerous. This argument is used by hadeeth rejectors who are not learned about science of hadeeth ('Ulum al hadeeth) and this leads to a deviant aqeedas adopted by quranists, etc.

here is a brief introduction about hadeeth preservation and classification (4 pages PDF):
Preservation and classification of Hadeeth

format_quote Originally Posted by syed1

Does it say anywhere in the Quran that we must follow the "hadeeths"?

The Qur'an is the word of Allah - it contains the commands of Allah, and in numerous verses in the Qur'an, Allah tells us to obey the Prophet . Most of the commands of the Prophet which we must obey, as inspired to him by Allah, are in the hadeeth.

If you accept the Prophet as an explainer of the Qur'an and it's verses, if you accept him as a role-model, if you accept him as an object of obedience, and if you accept that matters should be referred back to not only Allah, but also to his prophet (as in the verse below) then you have no choice but to follow his sunnah which is recorded in the hadeeth. So it is incumbent on you to follow the hadeeth, and to obey the prophet's commands therein, and therefore to obey Allah.

Sahih International
O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (4:59)

The companions of the Prophet and later scholars have understood "refer it to Allah", to mean, "refer it to the book of Allah." And referring the matter to the Messenger of Allah, means to refer it directly to him in his lifetime, and to his sunnah (as recorded in the hadeeth) after his death. Note that the two, the book of Allah, and the sunnah of His Messenger , are placed together here, and the verse does not say "refer it to Allah and then to the Messenger", nor does it say, "refer it to Allah, and if you do not find the answer there, then refer it to the Messenger". The two (Qur'an and sunnah) come together, hand in hand.

There are many such verses where Allah commands obedience to Himself and His prophet , and many of those begin, "O you who believe". This means that the command is not just restricted to the Prophet's lifetime, or to his companions. Instead, the command is addressed to everyone who claims to be a believer - then, now, and always.

Interestingly, there is no verse in the Quran where Allah commands obedience to Himself without also ordering obedience to the Prophet . But there are verses where Allah tells us to obey the Prophet (pbuh), without mentioning obedience to Himself, and this is because obedience to the Prophet automatically means obedience to Allah, as the Prophet did not give commands of his own volition:

Sahih International
And establish prayer and give zakah and obey the Messenger - that you may receive mercy. (24:56)

And there are verses warning of the punishment for those that oppose the Messenger :

Sahih International
And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the believers - We will give him what he has taken and drive him into Hell, and evil it is as a destination. (4:115)

And see this verse:

Sahih International
He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian. (4:80)

In this verse, Allah states clearly that obedience to the Messenger is nothing less than obedience to Allah. It proves that any command from the Prophet (whether recorded in the Qur'an or in the hadeeth) actually originated with Allah. So what about those who disregard the hadeeth (records of sayings, commands, approvals and actions of the prophet) and thus disobey him on those matters? By inference, they are disobeying Allah, no matter how much they may think they are obeying Allah, and they are not following Allah's commands in the Qur'an.

Indeed, in the two saheehain (Bukhari and Muslim) the following hadeeth of the prophet is recorded: "Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah. Whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah."

In another hadeeth rasoolullah says, "I had better not find anyone of you reclining on his bed, and there comes to him one of my commandments or one of my prohibitions, and he says about it, "I do not know, what we find in the book of Allah (only) do we follow." (Al-Baihaqi, Abu Dawood, Ahmad, at-Tirmidhi, Ibn Maajah, al-Haakim, and others)

This is a clear warning to those who reject the hadeeth of the Prophet .

In the Sermon of the farewell pilgrimage, before the Prophet's death, he said:

"I have left among you two matters, that if you adhere to them, you will never be misguided: the book of Allah and the sunnah of his prophet." (Maalik, al-Haakim, al- Baihaqi)
He then asked for those hearing it to convey it to others.

The advice given is clear. We must follow BOTH of them, both the Qur'an and sunnah (as recorded in the hadeeth). Note that he gave this advice during the farewell pilgrimage, when he knew that his death was near, and it was a farewell advice to the thousands who thronged around him. If his sunnah was only to be followed during his lifetime, it would have been his duty to tell that to his followers. Otherwise he would not be fulfilling his mission of conveying the message properly. But instead he asked them to convey the message onto others, it was that important. At a time when his death was near, he reiterated that Muslims must cling to both the Book of Allah, and the sunnah of his Prophet , and with regards to the latter, the hadeeth are the only way of doing that correctly.

Also, some verses tell us that obedience to the Prophet does not mean just with what he came with of the Qur'an, and that obedience to him has sources external to the Qur'an, that must be followed as well:

Sahih International
And when it is said to them, "Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger," you see the hypocrites turning away from you in aversion. (4:61)

Come to what Allah has revealed, and to the Messenger. In other words, following only the Qur'an is not enough. Following only the prophets commands mentioned in the Qur'an is not enough. You must obey his commands that are not in the Qur'an too (which is the majority of them), those that are recorded in the hadeeth.

The passage continues:

And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah . And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful.

But no, by your Lord, they will not believe, until they make you [O Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept them with full submission. (4:64-65)

Indeed, verse 65 above tells us that accepting the Prophet's rulings and decisions is part of our very faith, part of our imaan. It is noticeable that Allah begins the verse by swearing by the Lord of the Prophet, and this is much more greater and serious than any of the other types of swearing that Allah has used in the Qur'an, such as the stars, the sky, the dawn, the morning light etc. And it is after this great swearing that Allah informs the believers that it is necessary for them to completely accept the authority of the Prophet . Without this, we do not believe, no matter how much we try to convince ourselves that we do.

Some more food for thought for you:

...And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. (2:143, part)
We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.(2:144)

These verses are in reference to the Muslims facing Jerusalem before the direction of the prayer was changed to Makkah. Allah explicitly states that it was He that appointed that original direction of prayer. However this inspiration and command to the Prophet to face Jerusalem never formed part of the Qur'an. Hence this shows that the Prophet received another type of revelation from Allah, that was binding on him and his followers.

Sahih International
And do not pray [the funeral prayer, O Muhammad], over any of them who has died - ever - or stand at his grave. Indeed, they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger and died while they were defiantly disobedient. (9:84)

This verse shows us that funeral prayers had already begun to be performed and that the Prophet used to offer prayers at the burial of the dead before this verse was revealed. Yet there is no verse in the Qur'an that orders the Prophet and the Muslims to pray specific funeral prayers over the dead. It must be conceded, that the command for the funeral prayer was given through the sunnah, and that command was binding on him and his followers.

These verses also show, that what the Prophet established as part of the religion, is approved by Allah. Nowhere in the Qur'an can one find any type of censure or rebuke or correction of the Prophet for establishing facts that are not in the Qur'an. If the Prophet , whose message and teachings are for everyone until the Day of Judgement, made any statement or established any practice that should not form part of the religion, one would expect that Allah would have clearly and unequivocally demonstrated that such practices do not form part of the religion, or that the Prophet does not have the right to establish any practice in the religion outside of the Qur'an. But one cannot find anything of that nature. Indeed, you can only find the opposite: approval or acceptance of what the Messenger of Allah established, in addition to the numerous verses, a few of which I quoted earlier, ordering Muslims to accept and follow whatever the Prophet instructs them to do. If these practices of the Prophet are ordered/approved/accepted by Allah, and Allah commands us to follow them, what right do we humans have to reject them?

format_quote Originally Posted by syed1

who are we to claim that these things are actually factual...

You, are a servant of Allah, and one who claims to follow the Prophet . Read the bold sentence directly preceding this quote. And I hope the rest of the post above and that to come, has made it clearer.

You are already following the ahadeeth, whether you realise it or not. How would we know how many raka3aat to pray for each prayer, what to say in the sitting position, all of these are from the ahadeeth, and without the ahadeeth (the method of recording the sunnah of the Prophet), we would all be astray, because we would have no record of what the Prophet ordered/did, and how he did it, and thus how we are supposed to do it. We cannot adhere to Islam without it. And Rasoolullah said in his farewell sermon that if we follow both Qur'an and Sunnah, we will never go astray, meaning that if we leave even one of them, we will go astray.

format_quote Originally Posted by syed1

My friend brings up the argument that the hadeeth should only be taken at face value and nothing more since it is not a direct saying or teaching of the prophet PBUH.

The authentic ahadeeth are direct teachings and sayings of the Prophet, and are NOT hearsay.

Read this book, and you will see how they are a fundamental part of our deen, and the rigorous process by which they were recorded, verified, and preserved for us to follow Islam correctly:

Usool al-Hadeeth: the Methodology of Hadith Evaluation, by Dr Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips


Part of post extracted and adapted from: The authority and importance of the sunnah, by Jamal Zarabozo.

format_quote Originally Posted by syed1

My friend brings up the argument that the hadeeth should only be taken at face value and nothing more since it is not a direct saying or teaching of the prophet PBUH.

Ask your friend, if Ahadeeth are not to be taken that seriously then ask him how to offer Salaah? How to make dua? How to do funeral prayer? How to observe fast? How to perform hajj? And other such minute details of worship.

Qur'an is the guide of humankind but it does not dictate step by step methods. They are explained only in the Ahadeeth.

Even I was at this point when I didn't have any reply for munkar-e-Ahadeeth (rejectors of Ahadeeth) but thanks to a local masjid's Imam, I got this answer. May Allah bless that Imam with Jannah. Ameen.

I can't remember the exact details of the story, my memory fails me again but when Umar ibn khattab was calipha, a man claimed that he heard the prophet (saw) say something, and Umar told him that, "If you don't find someone else who can confirm that the prophet (saw) said this to you then it will be rejected" which shows they were very strict in what they accepted as narrated from the prophet (saw).

^ This?:

On one occasion Abu Musa al-Ash‘aree (may Allah be pleased with him) went to visit ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) and called out greetings to him three times. When he did not hear any response, he left. ‘Umar then called him and asked him what prevented him from entering the house. Abu Musa replied that he heard the Prophet say, “When anyone of you asks permission to enter three times and it isn’t granted, he should go away.” ‘Umar then demanded that he prove that this statement was correct otherwise he would punish him. So Abu Musa brought a witness who confirmed it. ‘Umar then informed him that he did not doubt the authenticity of his report but was only concerned that people be very careful in what they transmit from the Prophet .

(Saheeh Al Bukhari, buyu‘ 9, Saheeh Muslim, adab 36.)

This was simply one instance of asking someone that said something to verify it, as they were so careful of not attributing to the Prophet anything he didn't say.

format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah

^ This?:

On one occasion Abu Musa al-Ash‘aree (may Allah be pleased with him) went to visit ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) and called out greetings to him three times. When he did not hear any response, he left. ‘Umar then called him and asked him what prevented him from entering the house. Abu Musa replied that he heard the Prophet say, “When anyone of you asks permission to enter three times and it isn’t granted, he should go away.” ‘Umar then demanded that he prove that this statement was correct otherwise he would punish him. So Abu Musa brought a witness who confirmed it. ‘Umar then informed him that he did not doubt the authenticity of his report but was only concerned that people be very careful in what they transmit from the Prophet .

(Saheeh Al Bukhari, buyu‘ 9, Saheeh Muslim, adab 36.)

This was simply one instance of asking someone that said something to verify it, as they were so careful of not attributing to the Prophet anything he didn't say.

That's the one I was on about, mashaAllah, jazakAllah khair,

format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008

Ask your friend, if Ahadeeth are not to be taken that seriously then ask him how to offer Salaah? How to make dua? How to do funeral prayer? How to observe fast? How to perform hajj? And other such minute details of worship.

Qur'an is the guide of humankind but it does not dictate step by step methods. They are explained only in the Ahadeeth.

This is true, and a very relevant point to make to people in doubt about the hadeeth. A point also for them to note, is that the hadeeth is not only the details or the "how to" of commands mentioned in the Qur'an. Sometimes people think that all the commands we need to follow are in the Qur'an and that the hadeeth only pad them out with the details and are thus are of secondary importance (even though the details themselves are important).

The sunnah of the Prophet , is also an independent source of law in itself, to be followed with equal gravity to the Qur'an, and as such, the ahadeeth also contain commands/prohibitions that are not in the Qur'an, but which must be followed e.g. the prohibition on men wearing gold and silk, as Allah says:

"O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Messenger..." (4:59, part)

I hope Br Syed1 will return to this thread and let us know if all the input here is helping even slightly to clarify his misconceptions about the hadeeth.

comes down to sincerity and meaning it in the heart, if you don't mean it - it won't have an effect on you and you haven't changed,
so really you haven't said it.
saying sorry with your mouth isn't always the same as saying it with your heart.

format_quote Originally Posted by syed1

Narrated Abu Huraira (Radi-Allahu 'anhu):
Allah's Apostle (Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam) said, "Whoever says, 'Subhan Allah wa bihamdihi,' one hundred times a day, will be forgiven all his sins even if they were as much as the foam of the sea."

Bukhari Vol. 8 : No. 414

^^ these are particularly the type of hadith I sometimes think about how valid they are or if they should be taken for its literal meaning...

I mean could it really be that easy, to say the aforementioned word a 100 times and be given of all sins? what if one does not pray or follow anything else, could simply invoking the name of God 100 time relieve you of your sins? ​

You might know that the hadeeth indicate that one of the dividing lines between kufr and Islam is the wilful abandonment of prayer, so no, if you wilfully abandoned you prayer, and then did what was stated in the hadeeth, it would not forgive you for that or absolve you of that.

There is also the hadeeth "Actions are judged by their intentions...". So if a person's intention is to sin, but thinks I'll recite this hundred times and be forgiven, do we think that God is stupid and doesn't know our intentions and we'll thus be forgiven?

You can't look at one hadeeth in isolation and draw your own wrong conclusions from it due to your own lack of knowledge, and then blame the hadeeth.

We all need to learn more and may Allah help us all, ameen.

format_quote Originally Posted by syed1

the argument is that since it is being "reported" "said" "heard" that the prophet, "did" "said" "Acted" in such a way, who are we to claim that these things are actually factual...

There is whole authentication science behind the hadith collections. There were hadith who had no sources, they were rejected. There are different classification with different authentication levels of hadiths; so it is not just he said and he heard.

Here is a good video on hadith collection:

format_quote Originally Posted by syed1

I'm sorry if I offended you or if you took that personally but that was never my intention.. nor am I blaming the hadith for anything.. I was simply just curious as to how valid these claims are because to me it just sounded to good to be true..

also I do understand that one must say these things with sincerity and purity of the heart, and your actions are judged by your intentions..

Any ways, i guess the lesson we can take out of this is that since we will never KNOW if saying these things will relieve you of your sins until your appointed time comes.. all you can really do is follow the teachings of the prophet and at best you'll benefit from it and at worst, well you haven't lost anything right?

Well others have already told you about the science of Hadeeth as to how the chain is evaluated and all. But have you ever gone through the Ahadeeth that talk about the signs of day of judgment? There are literally hundreds of prophecies which are coming true even today, yeah right now in 2011. Quotes from the 7th century, accumulated almost till the 10th or 11th century, citing relevant facts of the coming time including what's gonna happen after over 1000 years ( a complete millennium). Do you think all that can be hearsay?

I had an outstanding ebook about the signs of day of judgment, I'll post it here if I can find it. Read it and you will be flabbergasted to see the relevance. Homosexuality, the rule of Music over the entire world, leaders of the world against Islam, the popularity of female singers, mass consumption of alcohol, women clothed yet naked (obscene clothing), abundant adultery, disobedient offspring and what not.

Alhamdulillah, I found the ebook, I've attached it, go through it comprehensively. It will be worth every second you spend reading it.

And also I found this link http://etori.tripod.com/dajjalsystem/judgement.html