Although I stand by part of what I said earlier, cause I really think it was better that I knew about the ahadith that are weak or unauthentic and also that one cannot ignore all ahadith because of the weak ones, however I think I see now where you are coming from.
It goes down to how the author says it. If he says it in a manner where he's simply presenting all thats there (as was with what I read in the prophets stories) then its all cool. However just two days or something ago I was at a question and answer website (linked from somewhere from this forum) and in it someone had asked a question regarding a hadith. In the reply the scholar (im assuming its a scholar) mentions a hadith in a way that is kind of enforcing the point of view and then he says that 'but' scholars think its weak.
I see where your coming from, and I agree with you in regards with this.
Depends on how the scholar is using that hadith.
I apologize for not having seen it before.
Jazakallahu Khairun!
AllahuAlim!
May Allah guide us and forgive us. Aameen.
It should also be noted that traditionally, the scholars used to quote all the common narrations in their books and discuss them, commenting on their strength or weakness. They did not bring obscure sayings that no one had likely heard of.
As-salamu'alaikum,
okay then, let us take another example to show you how men have been using weak / false hadith against females / women: Female Genital Mutilation / Female Circumcision.
There is obviously no such thing to be found in the Qur'an.
An excerpt from a website on Muslim Women's rights says this:
"Those who advocate for Female Genital Mutilation from an Islamic perspective commonly quote the following hadith to argue that it is required as part of the Sunnah or Tradition of the Prophet:
"Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband."
"This is known to be a "weak" hadith in that it does not meet the strict criteria to be considered unquestionable (classified as mursal, i.e. missing a link in the chain of transmitters in that none was among the original Companions of the Prophet.) ... According to Sayyid Sabiq, renowned scholar and author of Fiqh-us-Sunnah, all hadiths concerning female circumcision are non-authentic.""
All taken from the one and only "authentic" sunnipath.com :
"While scholars have distinguished between a man's right to "demand" sex and a woman's right to "request" sex..."
"A woman may not have an explicit legal right to demand sex in the same fashion as a man..."
"In Islam, marriage is a form of contract, based on the premise that the woman will make herself sexually available to the man with his promise that he will support her and their children."
"the wife must obey her husband in his request for sexual intimacy unless she has a valid reason. She must obey him as long as she does not have to forego her own rights."
"It will be a grave sin, in normal circumstances, for the wife to refuse her husband, and even more, if this leads the husband into the unlawful"
"Yes, it is sinful for a man to consistently refuse his wife. Note the word "consistently."..."
"RE: "Can a husband force his wife to have sex?"
Answer: It is not a question of “the Islamic opinion” but, rather, the ruling of Allah and His Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace)..."
"In the same way We assigned to each prophet an enemy, evil humans and evil jinn. They suggest alluring words to one another in order to deceive - if it had been your Lord's will, [Prophet], they would not have done this: leave them to their inventions - so that the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter may incline towards their deceit, be pleased with it, and so perpetrate whatever they perpetrate. [Say], 'Shall I seek any judge other than God, when it is He who has sent down the Scripture, clearly explained, for you [people]?' " [Quran 6:112-114]
so you see, these people have been using such weak Hadith, which are surely lies, in their books and speeches to make their points.
Actually, the opinions you cited on female circumcision (which is NOT pharaonic circumcision, by the way) are not based on weak hadith. Please check the thread I linked.
you can't really deny it - it's very clear.
If you mean the fact that weak hadith exist, then of course I never have denied that. But none of the fatawa you cited were based on weak hadith. What exactly is your point?
Companion,
All taken from the one and only "authentic" sunnipath.com :
"While scholars have distinguished between a man's right to "demand" sex and a woman's right to "request" sex..."
"A woman may not have an explicit legal right to demand sex in the same fashion as a man..."
"In Islam, marriage is a form of contract, based on the premise that the woman will make herself sexually available to the man with his promise that he will support her and their children."
"the wife must obey her husband in his request for sexual intimacy unless she has a valid reason. She must obey him as long as she does not have to forego her own rights."
"It will be a grave sin, in normal circumstances, for the wife to refuse her husband, and even more, if this leads the husband into the unlawful"
"Yes, it is sinful for a man to consistently refuse his wife. Note the word "consistently."..."
"RE: "Can a husband force his wife to have sex?"
Answer: It is not a question of “the Islamic opinion” but, rather, the ruling of Allah and His Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace)..."
What does this have to do with anything?
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
But none of the fatawa you cited were based on weak hadith. What exactly is your point?
salam,
If the scholars are not making their point based on weak hadith, and there aren't any stronger hadith on the matter, AND nothing like that is in the Qur'an,
then on what exactly are they basing their opinions ?
these scholars really do speak out of desire, rather than evidence then?
 
 
Wa alaikum as salaam brother,
This discussion is on hadiths, no?
I believe in the Almighty, His revelations and His prophets. But I refuse to accept all these nonsensical preachings made by such scholars. I dont know about you brother, but to me [what I have posted] are extremely abhorrent and repulsive. I refuse to accept these teachings. I dont believe these things the scholars teach the Muslims are the original preachings of the Messenger of Allah.
"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah."[Quran 33:21]
Last edited by AceOfHearts; 03-11-2006 at 03:39 PM.
Because there is an emphasis on obedience to the husband in Islam...
salam,
Just like you have been wrongly made to believe that such doctrines are "in Islam", so too have many men who take advantage of the lies they find in some hadith.
so, under the guise of : "the Prophet said this!" , "but Ibn Abbas said that!", they manage to find justification for 'punishing their wives', often by beating them up, because they have felt that their wives have become 'disobedient wives',
..after all, it  IS  "in Islam"..
 
 
If the scholars are not making their point based on weak hadith, and there aren't any stronger hadith on the matter, AND nothing like that is in the Qur'an,
then on what exactly are they basing their opinions ?
There are authentic hadith from which they have derived their ruling.
Just like you have been wrongly made to believe that such doctrines are "in Islam", so too have many men who take advantage of the lies they find in some hadith.
Again you refuse to distinguish between authentic hadith and hadith that have been classified as weak. Why? What I have mentioned is part of Islam, because it is found in authentic hadith. You follow your personal desires and choose to reject any hadith you don't like. That is not the characteristic of a true Muslim. When something has been authentically reported from the Prophet Muhammad saws, our response should only be as the Qur'an mentions
24:51 The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, "We hear and we obey": it is such as these that will attain felicity.
they manage to find justification for 'punishing their wives', often by beating them up
Prove it. Show me where it says this in THE AUTHENTIC HADITH. Don't just spout nonsense here and expect me to take your word for it.
This discussion is on hadiths, no?
I believe in the Almighty, His revelations and His prophets. But I refuse to accept all these nonsensical preachings made by such scholars.
The problem is you are using your personal whims and desires to tell you what is right and what is wrong. The Qur'an forbids this and tells us to only follow what is from the Qur'an and the Sunnah:
33:36. It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allâh and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error.
Like I said before, hadith-rejectors (which you have clearly proven yourself to be now) do not study the sciences of hadith and then pass their judgement on a hadith after academic analysis. Instead, they are just average Muslims who come across hadith that they don't understand or don't like and they reject it based on their whims. This is, of course, unacceptable.
I dont know about you brother, but to me [what I have posted] are extremely abhorrent and repulsive.
What is 'extremely abhorrent' and 'repulsive' about the fact that the Prophet mentioned that the husbands have a right to relations and the wives have a right to good treatment?
I refuse to accept these teachings.
You will be asked about it on the day of judgement - Why you rejected the authentic hadith that have been agreed upon by every Muslim scholar for centuries all the way from the time of the companions themselves; why you had the arrogance to think that your personal inclinations were the ultimate criterion, and that they had greater weight than the consensus of all the Muslims scholars and the practice of all Muslims since the time of the companions.
I dont believe these things the scholars teach the Muslims are the original preachings of the Messenger of Allah
Why? If you want to reject authentic hadith you need to have a very strong reason that you think the entire Muslim Ummah hasn't noticed.
What has become clear for both of you, Ameen and Companion, is that you reject hadith that are unanimously agreed to be authentic and you do it for no good reason. There is not a single authentic hadith you have brought forward that contradicts the Qur'an or any of the Islamic values laid down therein. One who does this had adopted one's personal whims as one's guide in life as opposed to the sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad saws.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
Ameen, why don't you just post the exact hadith that you think are weak which you think they are not in accordance with teachings with the Qur'an. The problem is, you probably just haven't understood these hadith, and have misinterpreted them, or maybe you have seen someone else misinterpret them and abuse them, but because someone else has done wrong, you can't say all hadith are weak because of that. Just post the hadith you don't understand and i'm sure Bro Ansar can help you understand inshallah or clarify on any misconceptions
Make Dua for your Brothers and the Angels will make Dua for You!
Happy moments, Praise Allah
Difficult moments, Seek Allah
Quiet moments, Worship Allah
Painful moments, Trust Allah
Every moment, Thank Allah
If Allah brings you to it, He will bring you through it
Well you quoted a fatwa from IslamQA but you did not quote their longer fatwa which explains their view and mentions the hadith:
In Madeenah there was a woman who circumcised women and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (5271), classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.
There are other hadith found in virtually every compilation which mention that ghusl is obligatory when the two circumcised parts meet, and these hadith have been authenticated by numerous scholars. This indicates that this was an acceptable practice at the time of the Prophet saws.
Personally, I agree with the view of scholars who say that especially today it is better that this practice be avoided, but that doesn't mean that the positions of other scholars are based on weak hadith.
As a side point, In the book on Traditions that affect the health of women and children, which was published by the World Health Organization in 1979 it says:
With regard to the type of female circumcision which involves removal of the prepuce of the clitoris, which is similar to male circumcision, no harmful health effects have been noted.
There is no sin whatsoever for a Muslim refusing to accept a hadith (yes - even from the ones classified as 'sahih' by some),
because Allah has not given Hadith such authority in the Qur'an.
I would suggest that you follow br. Moss's advice and bring specific hadith that you have difficult accepting and we can discuss them inshaa'Allah. As for rejecting authentic hadith, yes it is a sin, because if you know the hadith is authentic then it is rejecting the statement of the Prophet saws.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
This is not following the Prophet, this is following evil and the works of Shaitan
To say that since the time of the companions, all the Muslim scholars have been folloing evil and the works of Shaytan - that's a pretty strong claim, isn't it?
it is far from following the Prophet - it's falsehood that aims to please
human-beings - to please men - to please 'husbands'.
Perhaps you missed the other hadith I quoted which talk about pleasing women. And I'm sure you must have read the hadith in Sahih Muslim which describes a man who fights with his wife as one who is driven by the most evil devil.
I'm just gob-smacked at the moment.
Well when you're gob has recovered from the smacking, please bring forward a hadith and we can discuss it.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
This is not following the Prophet, this is following evil and the works of Shaitan,
it is far from following the Prophet - it's falsehood that aims to please
human-beings - to please men - to please 'husbands'.
these people have abused the name of 'Sunnah' and have corrupted the surface of Islam.
I'm just gob-smacked at the moment.
Please, just bring one hadith that you think shows men are superior to women, and which has been classed as authentic, then we'll get to the bottom of the problem
Make Dua for your Brothers and the Angels will make Dua for You!
Happy moments, Praise Allah
Difficult moments, Seek Allah
Quiet moments, Worship Allah
Painful moments, Trust Allah
Every moment, Thank Allah
If Allah brings you to it, He will bring you through it
Earlier I posted this hadith on female-circumcision and referred you (admin) to an article which states that it is classified as 'weak':
"Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband."
"This is known to be a "weak" hadith in that it does not meet the strict criteria to be considered unquestionable ... According to Sayyid Sabiq, renowned scholar and author of Fiqh-us-Sunnah, all hadiths concerning female circumcision are non-authentic.""
"Um Atiyyat al-Ansariyyah said: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (pbuh) said to her: Do not cut too severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband."
"This is known to be a "weak" hadith in that it does not meet the strict criteria to be considered unquestionable ... According to Sayyid Sabiq, renowned scholar and author of Fiqh-us-Sunnah, all hadiths concerning female circumcision are non-authentic.""
The first problem here is that they don't give a reference to Shaykh Sayyid Sabiq's comment. The second problem is that they don't state if he declared this specific hadith to be unauthentic, they only state a very general verdict which obviously cannot refer to all the hadith since some of them are of undisputed authenticity:
A’ishah (radiyallaahu anha) reported that Allaah’s Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said:
“When the two location of circumcision (of man and woman) meet, ghusl [1] becomes obligatory”. [Recorded by Muslim, Ahmad and others].
Similarly, A’ishah (radiyallaahu anha) reported that Allaah’s Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said:
“Once he (the man) sits between her (the woman’s) four limbs and the (man’s); location of circumcision touches the (woman’s) location of circumcision, the ghusl becomes compulsory”. [Recorded by al-Bukharee, Muslim, and others].
And in a third narration, A’ishah (radiyallaahu anha) reported that Allaah’s Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said:
“When the (man’s) location of circumcision enters past the (woman’s) location of circumcision, ghusl becomes obligatory”. [Recorded by at-Tirmithi, Ibn Majah, and Ahmed. Verified to be authentic by al-Albaanee (al-Mishkat no. 442 & Irwaa ul-Ghalil no. 80)].
In the above narrations, the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) describes both the male and female sex organs as “khitaan”, which means, “location of circumcision”. This again indicates that female circumcision was a known and acceptable practise.
Based on the hadith above, the verdict of sunnah for female circumcision was derived.
a) Why are these scholars differing in deciding the authenticity of this hadith?
Suppose we give these people the benefit of the doubt and assume that Shaykh Sayyid Sabiq actually views this specific hadith to be unauthentic, and Shaykh Al-Albani views it to be authentic. This is still nothing new; there are a handful of hadith which scholars have disagreed on their authenticity, but this is nothing compared to the vast collection of indisputably authentic hadith. There is a legitimate difference of opinion on this issue.
b) Why have you decided to follow the latter scholar and NOT the "renowned scholar and author of Fiqh-us-Sunnah"?
I haven't. Remember I told you that this was not the opinion I go with. You wanted to know the evidence for these other opinions so I quoted them for you.
Now I want to ask you again, please bring forward the hadith you want to discuss on women, and inshaa'Allah we will discuss it.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
You make it sound as if I am here talking about just one or two hadith,
well sorry to bust your bubble, but that just is not the case -
MOST HADITH ON WOMEN ARE LIKE THAT ...
just look around you , on this forum! People are constantly posting nonsense regarding women's roles and attributes - derived from what? - from such hadith!
and even in this thread - just how many hadith have been mentioned so far?
Many of them are included in this category - and no matter what you say the scholars have graded them - A Muslim does not have to believe they are true.
- and no, when the believers say 'we hear and we obey' (referred to in the Qur'an), this does NOT include the hadith, which did not even exist (like they do now) during the time of the Prophet!
- so that trick is not going to work.
If we were to simply 'hear and obey' some of the nonsense that some scholars and sheikhs preach, as have been evident from even the discussion in this thread, then we'd be treading on a similar path to that of previous misguided generations - who were mislead simply because they followed others blindly.
 
Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Brother, first of all, we’d like to say that we are impressed by your question, which emanates from a thoughtful heart. May Allah Almighty help us all adhere to the principles of this true religion, Islam, and enable us to be among the dwellers of Paradise in the Hereafter, Ameen.
To explain the Islamic point of view concerning the hadiths that seemingly contradict reason or science, we’d like to quote the following explanation stated by Dr. Amin Rida in At-Tawhid magazine (May 1977):
“No one has the authority to describe a hadith as unauthentic owing to a seeming contradiction with science. This is because science changes and develops from time to time. No one can deny this fact, namely the change and development of science with the passage of time. Consequently, no one is entitled to deprive an authentic hadith from authenticity on a basis of a seeming conflict with a scientific rule.
Also, conflict between reason and an authentic hadith cannot deprive the latter from authenticity owing to some factors that affect reason such as intelligence, knowledge, etc.”
In response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:
“Your question needs a detailed answer, but I would briefly state the following:
Not everything reported as hadith is considered a hadith from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Hundreds of scholars have worked diligently to establish a scientific methodology of sorting and authenticating the traditions that can be safely attributed to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). One of the principal criteria for verifying hadith is that it should not contradict reason or empirical facts.
Another criterion is that it must not contradict the fundamental principles established by the Qur'an and authentic Sunnah.
Thirdly, in order for a hadith to be acceptable, it must have been reported and transmitted through a reliable chain of transmission where every link is considered known and reliable.
Having said this, we must guard against dismissing certain traditions which may appear to be contradicting reason while on a deeper study it would be found that it is our interpretation that is wrong, not the hadith itself. This often happens in regards to matters where human reason cannot operate, namely, that which is related to matters of ghayb (Unseen). As believers, we must believe that this area of reality is not accessible to reason or empirical knowledge. The only avenue for this knowledge is revelation from Allah. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) received inspirations other than the Qur'an regarding such matters, which is often related in the Hadith.
So do not rush to conclude that all hadiths are fabricated. And also we must never attribute falsehood to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). By having doubt about the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) we are rejecting the entire Qur'an as well.
So, pray to Allah to make your heart steadfast on the right religion.”
Dr. Sano Koutoub Moustapha, professor of Fiqh and Its Principles, International Islamic University, Malaysia, adds:
“I do thank the questioner, and pray to Allah to guide all of us and strengthen our iman.
It is known that there are two types of revelation: the first one is called al-wahyu az-zahir, meaning the clear and direct revelation; and the second is called al-wahyu al-batin, meaning the hidden and indirect revelation. The first one refers to the glorious Qur'an, while the second one refers to the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). As Muslims we are obliged to believe in both, based on many verses in the Qur'an such as Al-Baqarah 32, Al-Ma’idah 92, Al `Imran 59, et cetera. Accordingly, no belief is considered acceptable before Allah if it is based on separation between these two types of revelation.
However, there are differences between them in terms of their authenticity and authority. The whole Qur'an is known to be definitive and free from falsification and forgery, while the Sunnah is divided into definitive and speculative. The former is authentic and free from any falsification, while the latter has been subject to falsification and forgery. But, unless a Hadith is proven to be unauthentic, we have to believe in it and accept it.
As for the claim of having many hadiths contradicting scientific realities, I shall say that there is no such authentic hadith at all. Meaning, if a Hadith is found to be in contradiction with scientific realities, this hadith must be a false one or the so-called scientific reality is not, in fact, a reality. Therefore, one will have to conclude that the contradiction will never occur between an authentic hadith and a scientific reality, and if there is any contradiction, it must be because of a misunderstanding of either the revelation or the scientific reality, or both of them at the same time.
Based on this, I would like to confirm to our beloved brother that there is no contradiction between an authentic hadith and Qur'anic verses or scientific realities. Further, I would also like to clarify to him that the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) never said any hadith to suit his own needs. His actions are considered to be an application of the meaning of the Qur'an. Yet, it is true that there are some Sunnahs of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) that are based on a particular culture and tradition, and such type of Sunnah is not considered as legislation for Muslims at all. This type refers to his preference in food, ways of talking, looking and walking, and the color and type of his dress, etc. This type of Sunnah is known as non-legislative Sunnah and it is not a part of the religion, meaning nobody is obliged to follow it.
Finally, I recommend our brother to read a wonderful book written by Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi titled How We Deal with the Sunnah. Surely, he will get a lot of knowledge and clarification about many things related to the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).
May Allah guide all of us on right path and strengthen our love to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).”
If you are still in need of more information, don't hesitate to contact us. Do keep in touch. May Allah guide us all to the straight path!
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