Hadith and Women

format_quote Originally Posted by Ameen-

So the connection once again must be established to the false and corrupt Hadith that have moulded the personalities of many men like him.

This is simply ridiculous! You keep connecting the husband's bad behaviour with some allegedly "false and corrupt Hadith" then you don't even show! Which hadith are these that you this husband is acting upon? YOu have no evidence concerning what has influenced this man's behaviour, yet it seems that you have a vested interest in attacking the hadith, and conseuqently you claim that hadith have made him like this. On the contrary, if one studies the hadith, they will find a beautiful moral standard for them to emulate.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ameen-

There are simply too many of these that overall have an impact on Muslim's attitudes towards women.

These ill-mannered Muslims today are not practicing Islam, much less studying hadith! Their attitudes should be attributed solely to themselves unless it can be objectively shown (key word: objectively) that their attitude is linked to some source text. If you think it is hadith, bring me some examples and we'll discuss them. But first we have to agree that our personal feelings are not a criteria for what is authentic or not. Do you have a formal education in the hadith sciences, according to which you can issue judgements on the authenticity of a hadith?

Or are you, like most hadith-rejectors, someone who simply comes across hadith that he/she finds troubling or seemingly in conflict with other Islamic values, and consequently declares, "It doesn't make sense to me, therefore it can't be authentic" instead of going to the scholars and find the explanation of the hadith in context?

format_quote Originally Posted by Issa

,
Brother, not to be disrespectful but she should leave ESPECIALLY if she has children. If he is abusive the children see. If the see and she stays they will think it is ok. They may become abusive when they are adults. It isn't a good idea to stay 'for the sake of the children' when someone is abusive...

I'm not arguing that, I simply said that she should consider what is in the best interests of her children, I didn't say that she shouldn't divorce if she has children.

"Or are you, like most hadith-rejectors, someone who simply comes across hadith that he/she finds troubling or seemingly in conflict with other Islamic values, and consequently declares, "It doesn't make sense to me, therefore it can't be authentic" instead of going to the scholars and find the explanation of the hadith in context?"


Th 'sciences of hadith' is a labelling system which - on the surface - seems to work, but in the real world, not many people actually follow.

This is why there are people believing in and following all kinds of Hadith, including those that have been classed 'weak' or 'fabricated' by some scholars.

For example, I have a book called 'Major Sins', which is written by an 'Imam', and one chapter of his book is devoted to encouraging the women to obey and remain subservient to their husbands. It is filled with disgusting hadith which, if you read, I'm sure you'll agree CANNOT be from the Prophet. Also, some of these Hadith have 'Not Found' as their reference and so they don't even have a source!

format_quote Originally Posted by Ameen-

Th 'sciences of hadith' is a labelling system which - on the surface - seems to work, but in the real world, not many people actually follow.

On the surface? Brother, are you a muhaddith? Do you have a formal education in hadith sciences?

For example, I have a book called 'Major Sins', which is written by an 'Imam'

Imam Adh-Dhahabi?

It is filled with disgusting hadith which, if you read, I'm sure you'll agree CANNOT be from the Prophet.

Then bring them forward in a new thread and we'll discuss them.

Also, some of these Hadith have 'Not Known' as their reference and so they don't even have a source!

If they have 'not known' as their source, then they are not considered authentic, so this is not a problem with hadith, again. And this does not mean we reject authentic hadith simply because we reject fabricated ones.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ameen-

The point is that THERE ARE these hadith out there and they are BEING PUBLISHED under the name of people with 'Imam' as their title like the person mentioned above.

I never disputed that there are fabricated or unauthentic hadith out there. But our scholars and Muhaditheen have already studied them and classified them, and if someone reads a hadith they should ask the scholars concerning its authenticity and context.

The issue here is your campaign against hadith and the fact that you attribute someone's bad manners to hadith without any basis for this at all!

Since you know the book, perhaps you can see for yourself what I'm talking about?

Yes, let's talk about Imam Adh-Dhahabi's book, Al-Kabâ'ir. First of all, if anyone read the book properly they would see that the chapter right after women is about men! And Imam Adh-Dhahabi begins the chapter by writing:

Lest one should suppose that all the responsibilities are on the wife and all the rights belong to the husband, we mention that the husband is obliged to be gentle, kind, and loving to his wife. He must show forbearance and patience toward her in case she is occasionally abusive or ill-tempered. It is his duty to feed and clothe her and to provide for her needs well, within his means, according to the command of Allah Most High: Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity (4:19) and the advice of the Prophet: Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Related by Ibn Majah and Tirmidhi who declared it Hasan Saheeh)

He said: "The best among you is the one who is best to his wife" (Related by Ibn Hibban) in another version it is the one who is most kind to his wife. The Prophet himself was very gentle and kind in dealing with women.

The Prophet saws also said: "If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11)."

It is reported that a man came to 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab raa to complain about his wife's ill-temper. While he was waiting for 'Umar to come out of his house, he heard 'Umar's wife scolding him and 'Umar quietly listening to her, and not answering her back. The man turned around and started walking away, muttering to himself: "If that is the case with 'Umar, the leader of the believers, who is famous for his uprighteness and toughness, then what about poor me?!" At that moment, 'Umar came out of his house and saw the man walking away. He called him and said, "What is it you want of me, O man?" The man replied: "O leader of the believers, I came to complain to you about my wife's bad-temper and how she nags me. Then I heard your wife doing the same to you, so I turned around, muttering to myself, 'If that is the situation of the leader of the believers, then what about me?'" 'Umar replied, "O my brother, I bear with her because of her rights over me. She cooks my food, bakes my bread, washes my clothes, breast-feeds my child...and yet none of these are her duty;* and then she is a comfort to my heart and keeps me away from forbidden deeds. Consequently, I bear with her." The man said, "It is the same with me, O leader of the believers." 'Umar said: "Then, O my brother, be patient with her, indeed this life is short. (Adh-Dhahabi, Al-Kabâ'ir 194)

The last hadith about 'Umar is a beautiful example of the lofty status that Islam has given women. The Khalifa himself used to listen patiently while his wife scolded him and he instructed his followers to likewise be patient and grateful for all the favours their wives gave them. Dr. M. Moinuddin Siddiqui, who has translated Al-Kabâ'ir into english, includes the following footnote in the place I have marked above with an asterisk [*]:

According to the Shari'ah, a Muslim wife has no obligation to do all this; rather, it is the husband's obligation to take care of it [either himself or] by hiring a servant (or even, in the case of breast-feeding, a wet-nurse). Therefore, if a woman does this, it is out of good-will and compliance on her part, not because it is obligatory on her, and consequently it is a cause for appreciation and helpfulness on the part of her husband. (Translator)

So we can see quite clearly that far from being mysognistic, the book of Imam Dhahabi contains beautiful hadith which shed light on the equity and justice of Islam.

As for the other hadith Imam Dhahab quotes earlier in his chapter on women, yes some of them are unauthentic but he mentions this and gives the source each time. So if anyone reads his work they will not be misguided. Besides, when someone reads these things they can always confirm them with a scholar and find out from our shuyukh the status of these ahadith.

salam,

My version of the book (published by Islamic Inc. Publishing & Dist.) does not begin with those hadith, and it is entitled 'A Wife's Rebellion Against Her Husband'.

(Edited at 08:49 PM: the CHAPTER is entitled that, not the book)


You have overlooked many of the hadith in there, which are in-fact highly offensive and some are too abhorrent for me to type-up on this board.


One thing is clear though - Muslims around the world are being influenced and affected by teachings that stem from such lies in hadith and scholars' opinions, sometimes resulting in tyrannical characteristics in men.

The sister who started this thread (http://www.islamicboard.com/cyber-co...-thoughts.html) may well be a victim in such a case.

brother,

format_quote Originally Posted by Ameen-

My version of the book (published by Islamic Inc. Publishing & Dist.) does not begin with those hadith, and it is entitled 'A Wife's Rebellion Against Her Husband'.

First, there are no 'versions' of the book. I was looking at the arabic text itself, written by Adh-Dhahabi and the english translation of M. Moinuddin Siddiqui. If you want me to comment on the translation that you have, please provide a link to the book and give me the name of the translator.

Secondly, you asked me about what the Imams are writing not about some incorrect translation.

Thirdly, I feel you are again mistaken. The chapter immediately after 'A woman's bad conduct towards her husband' is immediately followed by the section I quoted. Please check again. If not, then your translation is wrong and the blame rests upon that publisher for omitting the section, not upon the Imam who wrote the book, and certainly not upon the hadith!!

You have overlooked many of the hadith in there, which are in-fact highly offensive and some are too abhorrent for me to type-up on this board.

I have overlooked nothing, brother. I commented in my last post about this. There are some unauthentic hadith, but it is mentioned and the source is given. I assume that the 'offensive' hadith you are mentioning is the hadith of some women being hung in hell-fire by their hair. Well the scholars, classical and contemporary, have mentioned its weakness and the fact that it is fabricated, so this shouldn't be an issue either, nor should it be used as an excuse by hadith-rejectors to discredit the authentic hadith collections.

There is not a problem with hadith, there is a problem with some Muslims.

One thing is clear though - Muslims around the world are being influenced and affected by teachings that stem from such lies in hadith and scholars' opinions, sometimes resulting in tyrannical characteristics in men.

Not true. Muslims are being affected by their cultural traditions that they prefer over Islam and they are failing because they do not go to the sources of knowledge and seek clarification from the scholars. Instead they appoint themselves as Muhadditheen to declare what is right and what is wrong.

The sister who started this thread may well be a victim in such a case.

So now you have gone from declaring outright that she is a victim of false hadith [without any evidence to support your claim], to saying that she may be a victim of false hadith. Well, she may be a victim of just about anything, its just a claim, you have to provide evidence before you want others to take it seriously.

salam,

I'd just like to correct something I said in my previous post :

The Chapter of the book we are talking about is called

'A Wife's Rebellion Against Her Husband'.

(not the name of the version/book itself - sorry about the mistake)

This is the translation I have:

http://www.simplyislam.com/iteminfo.asp?Item=50804


Obviously, I can't say 'the person's husband is DEFINITELY influenced by false hadith' - but when you speak out of belief - you don't usually say 'may be'... we don't say there MAY BE a Hereafter, because we strongly believe that there is (although I know this is not exactly the same).

You're right that these attitudes are human-attributes in some men, but people have been trying to connect these to Islam - and you know the only route this has been made possible - just say 'The Prophet said it'.

...which then leads some people to have 'second thoughts' about Islam (just look at the title of this thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/cyber-co...-thoughts.html).

format_quote Originally Posted by Ameen-

salam,

I'd just like to correct something I said in my previous post :

The Chapter of the book we are talking about is called

'A Wife's Rebellion Against Her Husband'.

(not the name of the version/book itself - sorry about the mistake)

Don't worry, I understood what you meant.

This is the translation I have:

http://www.simplyislam.com/iteminfo.asp?Item=50804

JazakumAllahu khayran for the link. Now can you double check and read the part right after the chapter you mentioned and see if it resembles what I have quoted?

and you know the only route this has been made possible - just say 'The Prophet said it'.

Brother, if someone brings an allegation using a hadith, let's examine the hadith and see the commentary on scholars not try to discredit all hadith collections.

I hope we're in agreement on this.

salam,

Is Adh-Dhahabi not a scholar / Imam himself?

He obviously believes such hadith are true / Sahih and is even endorsing Hadith which you yourself have said is a lie / are unauthentic.

Some people are clearly picking and choosing what suits them then?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ameen-

Is Adh-Dhahabi not a scholar / Imam himself?

Yes, he is.

He obviously believes such hadith are Sahih and is even endorsing Hadith which you yourself have said is a lie / are unauthentic.

No he does not, as I said previously he mentions the source and authenticity of the narrations. If your translation didn't include his footnotes, that isn't his fault. Also, many early scholars used to compile all narrations on a subject in their books which people could look up in other references to check their authenticity.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ameen-

salam,

The purpose of his using those Hadith in his book is very clearly not to refute them or to say how weak they are, but are directed at women so that they 'realise' how important their duty is to their husbands and their position in a marriage.

If he sincerely doubted the authenticity of those hadith, why is he using them to make his point (to the women) and explaining them with a view of them being true?

He is quoting them because they are relevant to the discussion. It is true that abusive men and abusive women will be punished, but the punishment described in one of thoser hadith is not authentic and he mentions that. He basically says, "This is another hadith on this subject, however many scholars have viewed it unauthentic".

bro,

format_quote Originally Posted by Ameen-

Can you tell me from where comes the connection of misogynistic / negative view of women to Islam?

You mean in the west or why some Muslims are like that?

Well the western media portrayed Islam as a religion oppressive to women long before their people even read hadith. Throughout history there has been a campaign to attack and discredit Islam, so this is nothing new. They mainly focus on the way women dress and then they tried to dig deeper to come up with more things to support their idea that Islam is mysognistic so they spread other misconceptions about Islamic law.

As for why some Muslims are like that, well then it is no surprise that many cultures historically have been oppressive to women, and when people go with culture instead of religioin, they act upon that.

You believe such attitudes are found in the Qur'an?

What attitudes? If you mean these anti-women attitudes, of course they have nothing to do with the Qur'an or the Hadith.

Or do you believe that it is just a coincidence that many MUSLIM men are like that?

It's not just Muslim men, women were discriminated and still are discriminated in all countries around the world. The problem with some Muslim men has nothing to do with hadith, it is cultural.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

He is quoting them because they are relevant to the discussion. It is true that abusive men and abusive women will be punished, but the punishment described in one of thoser hadith is not authentic and he mentions that. He basically says, "This is another hadith on this subject, however many scholars have viewed it unauthentic".

Assalamu alaikum brother,

I think the problem is that even when acknowledging a hadith is weak or unauthentic, possibly even fabricated, imams/scholars such as the auther of this book find no hesitancy in using it to prooving their point while even acknowledging its un-authenticity!

What is there left between an authentic and un-authentic nerration if both are used in prooving something?

Fact is today, a hadith among the Muslims are considered words of the Messenger regardless of its classification. Even a hadith that is classed weak is taken to be a hadith of the prophet and given the same credibility as a strong one. The discussion of its classification may only arise after some sort of a deliberate scrutiny of the validity of the hadith, otherwise it [usually] just passes by the reader as just another hadith of the Prophet to be accepted and adopted.

The main problem among the Muslims as Sister Righteous Lady points out is that we have drifted from the Quran since the days of the Messenger.