Debate: Why do some people completely reject hadith?

Sister BoiStop, in other forums I have already exhausted myself trying to clarify this matter to other Qur'aanis (people who reject Hadeeth) so here I am not going to do that again since Bro Ansar Al Adl has given an excellent explanation as to why Hadeeth is part of Islam.
As far as I can see, and as far as any true Muslim who understands the Qur'an can see.......You're just going around in circles, You keep asking Why? and when we give you the answer you just do a double turn and ask ' Why' again.
Wont you take time to read properly and understand what was given to you? But I would like to ask you a question which I have often asked other Qur'aanis but have never received a proper answer for : How do you make salaat? . All of the other whom I have asked always say "It's mentioned in the Qur'aan " Please, show me where?
Do you read the Faatihah? do you do rukoo' sujood ? I know these movements are mentioned in the Qur'aan......but do you know how many to do? what to say?.....Please I would like to know Insha'allah.
May Allah Guide me and You to the straight path and May He open the hearts of those whom are Blind to the Truth Amin.

ok ^^^^^^ how do we


Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind): "if you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Quran and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful
3:31

format_quote Originally Posted by BoiStop

Could you please prove the authentication of hadiths through the Quran? Could you please give me the verses in the Quran that talk about these hadiths?

You are asking the same question I already responded to. Yes or no - do you agree that if a statement has been proven to be from the Prophet Muhammad pbuh then we must follow it because of the Qur'anic verses which say so?

It is quote clear that the Qur'an negates the faith of anyone who does not accept the judgements of the Prophet (verse 4:65) and it explicitly indicates that the explanations and teahcings of the Prophet pbuh have been divinely ordained (verse 16:44). So the question is not whether the Qur'an endorses hadith because it clearly mandates the acceptance of all the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh that are conveyed to us. The question is rather, are the narrations conveyed to us and labeled by the scholars as sahih reliable?. And the answer to that, as anyone who has studied the hadith sciences knows, is a resounding YES.

45:6
Such are the signs of Allah, which we rehearse in truth: then in what hadith will they believe after Allah and his signs?

So was the Messenger rehearsing other hadiths?

Another common tactic used by hadith rejectors is to exploit ignorance of arabic terms. Hadith simply means a saying/narration. So the Qur'an is asking in this verse, what will people believe in if they reject the words of their Creator. As for your question if the Prophet pbuh conveyed more than the Qur'an, the answer again is YES:

Qur'an 16:44 And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

This verse clearly establishes that there is not only a revelation sent down (the Qur'an) but there are also the explanations of the Prophet that accompany it. These explanations have been preserved as our ahadith. This is the divine wisdom behind sending a Prophet so that human beings will see someone like them implementing and explaining the revelation from God. Any hadith rejector who tries to say that the Qur'an needs no additional source is refuted by this explicit passage which unequivocally states that the Prophet is to not only convey the Qur'an, but explain it as well.

And again, your faith lies in the hands of men.

A red-herring. God has given human beings the ability to write and record to preserve knowledge. The Qur'an was recorded in exactly the same way - by men. It was human beings who memorized and recorded the Qur'an just as it was human beings who memorized and recorded the Ahadith. It is through human beings that God's message is conveyed from one to another. But it is due to the divine help of God that human beings accomplished either. Why do you accept the Qur'an and not the Ahadith when they have both been preserved by the same people? It is God who enabled us to do both tasks.

Do you believe that every so called "authentic" hadith, is honestly authentic? Do you believe that every so called "fabricated" haidth is truly fabricated?

Absolutely. Because unlike hadith-rejectors I educate myself about the procedure behind their authentication. You can too; he's a very basic intro:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/

And again, you believe that Allah has left it up to men to authenticate divine messages?

God has protected and preserved the divine message through men, just as He allows it to be conveyed to different nations through men.

So these poeple have not made one error?

One person on their own can make an error. But when someone claims that the same error has been missed by over a millenium of hadith scholars who re-examined the work, a visit to the shrink is in order. For each hadith you can find the research of hadith scholars on it, the verdicts they gave on it and their conclusions about the people in the chains of narration.

Yea, and the Prophet was also reported to have said do not write anything that he says but the Quran.

You're telling me right now that you didn't read the article I linked:
http://www.islamicboard.com/212874-post5.html
That comment was answered IN THE ARTICLE ITSELF. Dozens of ahadith are listed there which show the Prophet pbuh told the companions to record his hadith. And look at what the companions did:

Sa’eed ibn Hilal, one of the students of Anas ibn Maalik, says:
When we insisted upon Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) he would bring to us some notebooks and say, These are what I have heard and written from the Prophet, after which I have presented them to the Prophet for confirmation. (Mustadrik Haakim)

He didn't leave it up to you - you don't understand the rigorous process behind the authentication of hadith because you have never studied that science. Yet for some reason you have the audacity to pass judgement on a subject you are ignorant of!

Us- in general. And yes, I have the audacity to pass judgment.

So you admit that you have the audacity to pass judgement on a science you are ignorant of - I think that says a lot about your sincerity to God.

Hadith-rejectors thrive on self-imposed ignorance.

They don't have knowledge, they know they don't have knowledge, and they refuse to educate themselves to gain that knowledge. God commands Muslims to learn and ask those with knowledge, but hadith-rejectors do the opposite. I think you need to re-check your intentions: if you are sincere in your commitment to God then you will try to learn and educate yourself about hadith sciences so you can make a more informed judgement.

Obviously that is not the case becuase in the Quran it does not say to stone hte adulterer, rathar it says flog those who commit illegal sexual intercourse and then it goes even further to say that an adulterer should only be with an adulterer. YET hadiths clearly say to stone the adulterer.

Did you read the commentaries of the hadith scholars on why this hadith doesn't contradict the Qur'anic statement? I suspect not. The hadith and the Qur'an are prescribing punishments for different offences, see this thread for a detailed discussion of this issue:
http://www.islamicboard.com/depth-is...ing-death.html
Now if you were sincere in learning you would ask, "Doesn't the hadith about stoning contradict the Qur'an? How did the scholars of hadith reconcile this with the verse from Surat An-Nur?" but instead you make the claim that they haven't reconcied the two when you have not read or studied any of their works. Like I said before - you need to check your intentions. If you are sincere in learning about your religion, then you need to do just that - adopt the attitude of a student. Instead, one will find hadith-rejectors adopting the most arrogant attitude despite their acknowledged ignorance of hadith sciences.

You're asking the wrong question. If we agree that God mandated for us to follow the Prophet pbuh, then the question should be whether these hadith are authentic in what they ascribe to the Prophet. By mandating obedience to the Prophet, God has mandated for us to follow all of the sayings and teachings of the Prophet which have been authentically transmitted to us.

Please read the verses that talk about staying away from alcohol and gambling, and women covering themselves.

You conveniently ignored my statement. Why?

Again, I don't deny the MEssenger. I know his mission, and that was all established through the Quran.

THis is the verse again:
Qur'an 16:44 And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought
The verse is refuting the claim that the Qur'an is all we need. The verse explicitly mentions that the Prophet's explanations have been divinely ordained as well.

First let's establish that the Quran is detailed. You all argue that the Quran is not detailed enough, does not explain, etc, etc.

If the Qur'an explaiend itself, then why does the above verse comannd the Prophet to explain it? Sounds a little redundant, doesn't it?

Surah 42:48
If then they turn away, we have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey (the Message). And truly when we give man a taste of mercy from Us, he doth exult thereat, but when some ill happens to him, on account of the deeds which his hands have sent forth, truly then is a man ungrateful!

The verse is only saying that the duty it to convey the message and not guard over whether they accept it or not. As I pointed out the Qur'an explicitly mentions that the Prophet's function was more than just to convey the Qur'an; he also had to explain and implement it:
Qur'an 16:44 And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may tubayyina (EXPLAIN CLEARLY) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought

First let's establish that the Quran is detailed. You all argue that the Quran is not detailed enough, does not explain, etc, etc. Allow me to refute that lie against the Quran.

Under no circumstances am I saying that the Quran is not detailed enough...
I am saying that the Quran is the divine message and the recipient of the message >> the Prophet [Pbuh] (Seal of Prophethood] showed us how to implement all that the message required of us hence his actions were recorded so that mankind can learn and follow the blessed being

I said...

The message is the Quran, which shows us the basic requirements and laws by thy Lord and the Messenger being the person showing us how to implement/enact these requirements.

The Quran sends the basic outlines of how to become a good Muslim and the hadeeth and Sunnah shows how to put it into practice

Surah 6:114
Say: “Shall I seek for judge other than Allah?- When He it is who hath sent unto you the book, explained in detail.” They know full well, to whom We have given the book, that it hath been sent down from they Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

Yes the Quran was the final revelation and the true revelation sent as guidence to mankind FROM ALLAH!..Yes it is all haaq...

Surah 7:52
For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,-- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.

Yes it is as guidence showing the rules from Allah without doubt...Next...

Surah 16:89
…And We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

I am sorry I dont understand your point, well obviously it is referring to the Quran as it is the final book >> not altered [Injeel, Zabur and Tawrah have been all changed] that is all based on the truth and is the words of Allah

Surah 18:54
We have explained in detail in this Quran, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious.

Yes again my argument still stands...

Surah 44:2
By the Book that makes things clear.

Yes it does ...The Quran is obviously the best of all books...First comes Quran then Sunnah and hadeeth

Surah 45:6
Such are the signs of Allah, which we rehearse to thee in truth: then in what hadith will they believe after Allah and his signs?


Do You Have Another Book?
Surah 68: 37-38
Or have ye a book through which ye learn that ye shall have through it whatever ye choose?

This is saying that there is NO more revelation directly from Allah.. The Quran is the only book but other recordings of the blessed man to showing us how to enact the message of Allah that have been recorded are vaild...

Please also respond to my questions, i would greatly appreciate it Thanks Peace x

Ok maybe it may seem tad contradicting but it sets basic guidelines to mankind...without no guidence we have nothing to follow...I am not saying the hadith is more explanitory than the Quran but it sets the foundation for what we have followed..its like a sandwich...the bread bit...cause without it their aint much of a sandwich simirarly their aint much point to life...its like the centrepiece but not the centre *eyes rolly**..get what me sayin? Hmm shall i just edit it? and say it explains all the guidelines?...Dya get what me tryna say? Peace x

format_quote Originally Posted by BoiStop

If there was a command given by the Messenger to me then yes I would follow it.

Good. So you agree that if a command or statement of the PRophet pbuh has been authentically transmitted to you, you must likewise accept it? The question should now be whether the hadith are authentic or not.

I disagree.

You're free to do so, but if you haven't studied the field you are commenting on, an ill-informed judgement carries little weight.

I don’t believe that they are reliable. The reason is because these hadiths come from other people’s observations and what they think that may have seen the Messenger do or what they may have thought they have heard. What if the Messenger said something totally different?

If they couldn't hear the Prophet pbuh clearly, they would mention such or they wouldn't transmit the statement. Remember these are the companions of the Prophet pbuh we are talking about; they were more careful than anyone to narrate the correct statement. Also consider when a statement is confirmed by multiple sources. I quoted for you a statement which says that Anas ibn Maalik used to write the Prophet's saws statements and get him to verify it. In light of all this, for someone to say for no good reason that the companions couldn't hear the Prophet pbuh properly is a very poor excuse.

What if he was doing something just to do it, and it meant nothing? What if he was talking to ONE person and his command was only for that one person? These are OTHER people’s observations of what they saw and heard.

This is an issue of Usûl Al-Fiqh, not Ulûm Al-Hadîth. How we interpret the Prophet's statements and commands found in the hadith is a different issue from the authenticity of the hadith themselves.

And again, why would Allah have us have to “confirm” the validity? If these hadiths were given the promise of protection, then how can there ever be such a thing as a “weak” hadiths? Why are we even questioning the authentication? Do we go about and question the authentication of Quran verses? No. So why hadiths?

Do educated Muslims question the authenticity of Sahih Hadith? No. The protection of the Prophet's message (pbuh) means that we are able to record and preserve the statements that have been authentically transmitted from him and seperate them from the statements that have been falsely attributed to him. The fact that we have been able to do that and reached a consensus amongst the scholars on that, is proof of their protection. If they hadn't been protected we would never have come to a conclusion about what the Prophet saws did and said.

By questioning the authentication of these hadiths, and then admitting that there are WEAK hadiths, that in itself proves that this system is faulty…

No, it doesn't. There are some people who will claim that some forgeries are from the Qur'an - does their claim contradict the Islamic belief in the Qur'an's divine protection? Of course not. Anyone can make up a verse and claim its from the Qur'an or make up a hadith and clima its from the Prophet pbuh - but in both cases the Muslim Ummah will unanimously reject such lies because our sources have been preserved. We can seperate the fabricated from the authentic, and that shows that the system works, not that it is faulty.

Years after the Messenger’s death.

No, they were recorded and transmitted by the companions themselves. I've already answered this myth, and I gave you this link:
http://www.islamicboard.com/212874-post5.html

And again, I believe that the only thing that he had explained was the Quran that’s it. It’s obvious that there are numerous hadiths that do not explain the Quran at all, but rather create their own separate rules, often contradicting the Quran itself.

No, I've already pointed out that a requirement for a hadith to be authentic is that it must be in conformity with the Qur'an. And the Qur'an contains the message of Islam. The Prophet's sunnah shows us how to implement that message and clarifies some of the general principles given in the Qur'an.

Because I believe that the Quran has been promised protection. Not hadiths.

But they have both been preserved by human beings. Answer that. Why do you reject hadith and make statements like, "Your faith lies in the hands of men" when the Qur'an was preserved in the same way! What you have acknowledged above is that God can protect the scriptures through human beings. Just because the sunnah has been preserved by human beings in the form of ahadith does not mean that God has not protected it.

I find it disturbing how you see nothing wrong or questionable about accepting something which has gone under an authentication process. It makes no since.

Why not?

If you believe that the Quran has been recorded by the same people and preserved by the same people, then why didn’t the Quran go through the same process??

Because it is completely mutawâtir. The Qur'an has been transmitted to us through an innumerable of chains of narration. There are many ahadith which are mutawâtir as well.

Millions of people do not believe in God…. How could they possibly make such an error? Millions of people have mistaken their Lord as Jesus, how can they possibly make such an error? What you are doing is making a grave error, by putting Muslim scholars on some level of being incapable of making an error.

Your analogy is flawed for so many reasons. You have mistaken my argument for the fallacy of appeal to authority or majority. This is only considered a fallacy when the person cited is not an authority in that field. So a human being is not an authority on whether God exists or not, but a medical physican is an authority in medicine, a physicist is an authority on physics, a chemist on chemistry, and a scholar of Hadith (Muhaddith) is an authority on the sciences of Ahadith. And I am not quoting just one scholar of hadith, I am quoting the unanimous consensus of all scholars of Hadith for over a millenium. The scholars of hadith are an authority on hadith sciences. Secondly, You are comparing academic enquiry to faith. Researching the reliability of a group of narrators in a chain is incomparable to the rejection of faith by some people.

And if hadiths were really preserved and recorded like the Quran, which you seem to be claiming, then they would have never had to gone through such a process, because we know the Quran’s authenticity is only questioned by the non-Muslim, while the authentication has even been questioned by Muslims for hundreds of years.

Wrong. The authentication of the hadith has NEVER been questioned by anyone with even a minimal education on hadith sciences. If you want to include ignorant people then you could find ignorant people believing anything.

You are saying this? Who told you that this system has no error and that every hadiths ever labeled “authentic” is authentic and every haith labeled “weak” is actually “weak”?

Every hadith which has been unanimously accepted by the scholars of hadith as authentic, is authentic, especially if the only ones who reject it are those who have no education in the sciences of hadith.

Are you willing to die for this system, which was created by man, because you believe that it is so true?

If you live in a house then you have already trusted your life to those who constructed and designed it so that it wouldn't collapse. The same is true for every technology, mechanism, medicine, etc. that you rely on daily.

See look at what you believe in. Is that the Prophet talking? No. That is another man’s observation and experience… and yet you take it is a truth.

Not 'another man' - it is Anas ibn Maalik, the companion of the Prophet explicitly saying that he recorded the sayings of the Prophet pbuh and verified them with him. Interesting how you have nothing to say in response to this, except to reject it since it doesn't suit your desires. I accept it as the truth because the narration has been scrutinised by scholars of hadith and they have found it to be authentic - just as you would accept the diagnosis of a medical doctor on a patient if it was confirmed by virtually every medical doctor.

I already know how they reconciled it--- basically they have come to the conclusion that when Allah said “Zina” he didn’t really mean zina bur rather fornication.

What is the arabic word the Qur'an uses for fornication. Please tell me.

My intentions? Excuse me but I was not the one who started this thread and asked Why you all believed in hadiths. Someone else asked WHY there are those who don’t. I stated my reasons and it was you all who wished to debate over the matter.

You proceeded to pass judgement on a subject that you acknowledged you were ignorant of - definitely not the attitude of a sincere Muslim. It is not too late to change your attitude: you can start learning about the hadith sciences and find out why the Muslim scholars unanimously accept them.

Adpt the attitude of a student? You say that I don’t have the attitude of one because I don’t believe what you believe

No, I say that because you cannot deny the fact that you are commeting on a subject that you have no knowledge about. You should first gain the knowledge and then comment on this subject.

I’ll agree with you that this is a question of authentication

Good. Then your focus should simply be to learn the basics of the hadith sciences. Asking where the Qur'an endorses hadith recorded in Bukhari and Muslim is a red-herring since you agree that the question is solely one of whether that hadith has been authentically ascribed to the Prophet or not.

My point about alcohol, gambling, and covering of women is to show how the Quran has told the Messenger what to command, and he’s been commanded to command people of things throughout the Quran. It’s just enough for people.

Is it? Using the Qur'an tell me how mank rak'ah in each salat, what must be recited in salah, how do we shorten our salat when travelling?

Honestly brother that is something that you have to answer and search for yourself, because when I say that the Quran is detailed I’m not making up a lie… the Quran says it, itself. Are you going to deny that the Quran is detailed when it calls itself detailed??

No, but I'm going to deny your understanding of the passage and I see now that you cannot respond to the verse I cited. Maybe now you need to admit that the Qur'an has been explained by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh who was divinely inspired by Allah to do this.

And I don’t disagree with the Messenger’s function. It all goes back to the Quran. But I don’t believe that all of these so called sayings of the Messengers are stemmed from the Quran, etc.

Like I said before, the question now becomes whether the ahadith are authentic or not, and for you to be able to answer that you need to study the hadith sciences. What you are finding now is that you have no reason to reject hadith except due to ignorance, which it is your duty as a Muslim to eliminate,

great info so far, i have learned a lot ehre

boi stop elo lol do u beleive in the dajjal yesh or no?

people who reject the hadith will more likely reject the authenticity of the dajjal and consider it fabricated as well