Debate: Why do some people completely reject hadith?

Salaam Ansar Al-'Adl,

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Good. So you agree that if a command or statement of the PRophet pbuh has been authentically transmitted to you, you must likewise accept it? The question should now be whether the hadith are authentic or not.

Let me say that if I recieved a personal letter from the Messenger, I would be more inclined to believe that, than beleiving something transmitted word to mouth.

If they couldn't hear the Prophet pbuh clearly, they would mention such or they wouldn't transmit the statement.

So are you now saying that some knowledge has been lost? That divine wisdom for the Messenger which was meant to be passed to others, has not been passed to others?

Are you saying that since such and such could not hear the Messenger clearly, Allah has allowed such divine knowledge not to pass through? Basically if you accept the fact that staments may have not been transmitted, "lost in translation", because people may have not heard it completly then you are saying that your religion is incomplete. You are saying that divine knowledge has been blocked away from you, and that you may indeed not be practicing what you are meant to be practicing.


Just to get on the same page as you:

1.) You accept hadiths.
2.) You believe that some divine knowledge has been lost because people may have not heard it completly.

I don't understand why GOd would allow something to not pass through the next generations...

This idea itself, that messages not being transmitted because lack of hearing clearly, proves itself that not all hadiths have been protected and preserved in the matter which you claim.

Remember these are the companions of the Prophet pbuh we are talking about; they were more careful than anyone to narrate the correct statement.

So people say the companiosn of the Prophet had said.

Also consider when a statement is confirmed by multiple sources. I quoted for you a statement which says that Anas ibn Maalik used to write the Prophet's saws statements and get him to verify it. In light of all this, for someone to say for no good reason that the companions couldn't hear the Prophet pbuh properly is a very poor excuse.

But you do admit to the fact that if they did not hear the Messenger properly then such a message would not be transmitted.

But anwyays, multiple sources does not prove that something is correct.

Do educated Muslims question the authenticity of Sahih Hadith? No.

Obviously you are wrong becuase if educated Muslims did not question the authenticity of Sahih Haidth then there would be no suhc thing as "authenticity" and "fabrication" of Sahih Hadith. Maybe they do not question because people have labeled these hadiths have "authentic".... but you know what, you shouldn't label someoen as "uneducated" just becuase they choose to question the form of thought being passed by generation. To label someone "uneducated" because they are questioning the way you live, the way you practice, and what you believe only seems to show that you have insecurity in your belief.

The protection of the Prophet's message (pbuh) means that we are able to record and preserve the statements that have been authentically transmitted from him and seperate them from the statements that have been falsely attributed to him. The fact that we have been able to do that and reached a consensus amongst the scholars on that, is proof of their protection. If they hadn't been protected we would never have come to a conclusion about what the Prophet saws did and said.

Please give me the Quran verse that gaurantees their protection. You cannot declare something divinely protected or divine if it is not in the Quran! Please give me the QUran verse that gaurantees their protection.

Just because MAN has CLAIMED to have protected and preserved these hadiths does not mean that it is "proof" of divinity. Where is your Quran verse that says this??

And yes we would have have come to a conclusion about what the Prophet did and said because even today there are DIFFERENCE of opinions about what he did and said among the hadith acceptors... Obviously not all scholars are agreeing on everything. Obviously there is not this unanimous consenseus which you claim there is.

There are some people who will claim that some forgeries are from the Qur'an - does their claim contradict the Islamic belief in the Qur'an's divine protection? Of course not. Anyone can make up a verse and claim its from the Qur'an or make up a hadith and clima its from the Prophet pbuh - but in both cases the Muslim Ummah will unanimously reject such lies because our sources have been preserved. We can seperate the fabricated from the authentic, and that shows that the system works, not that it is faulty.

Again where is the Quran verse to back up all of this divine work of authentication?

Also I have to ask, what if there is a tribe in the desert of Africa whose ancestors came into contact with the Messenger and the Messenger commanded something of this tribe... how are you going to handle that? Are you going to tell these people that what they believe is false, though their honorable leaders have passed such a tradition down to their tribe for generations?

Do you have a belief that every hadith has been discovered? (though you acknowledge that there may have been some hadiths disregarded because lakc of hearing clearly)

Do you believe that the Messenger only spoke to his companions and gave his companions the knowledge and then it was his companions who had to spread it?

I ask this because say if the Messenger was alive today and told YOU something. How are we going to confirm what you have said is true? You aren't apart of his Sahaba, you are not his companion. Just some man that he may have came across by on the street. Must we rely on, and I mean no disrespect, your percieved good charachter?

What do all of these "sources" mean? Are these the only sources possible?

But back to the tribe question (and yes I would put money on teh fact that there is some tribe on this earth today, that have their own set of hadiths that renowned scholars have never even heard of, but yet this tribe has followed for generations)...

Who are these scholars to label what they have been practicing for generations as a "fabricated" hadith? Who has given them divine knowledge to label it fabricated? The Quran? or have they only been telling themselves that?

I don't recall ever hearing the Messenger only revealed his message to his companions and it was up to them to spread it. Didn't he talk to many people? Didn't he come into contact with many people? So who is who? How do we say that they are wrong?


But back to the main issue: Where your Quran verse that says that this system that MAN has created to "authenticate" hadiths, is perfect and incapable of error?

What makes you believe that these scholars have been correct? Does the Quran say that tehy are correct?

If you cannot prove that the Quran has called their system correct, there is no way you can justify calling it incapable of error and PROOF of protecting divine knowledge, unless you take in the opininon of man.


To me, believing in the Quran is a matter of faith. I don't have any other way to describe it. It is the central thing surrounding my faith, therefore if something is not directly mentioned or stemmed from Quran then I wont accept it. If I believe in another religious book, then I could only believe in it becuase the Quran said that I should believe in it.

But they have both been preserved by human beings. Answer that. Why do you reject hadith and make statements like, "Your faith lies in the hands of men" when the Qur'an was preserved in the same way! What you have acknowledged above is that God can protect the scriptures through human beings.

If hadiths were preserved and protected the same way then why did anyone ever go about and question hadiths in the first place???? We don't hear anything like "fabricated" verse or "authentic" verse when it comes to the Quran.

And excuse me, but God can protect the scipture thoguh human beings, just like he can protect the scripture though animals if he likes. What we know is that God has given us the promise of protecting the Quran. It doesn't matter who he may have protected it through.

Just because the sunnah has been preserved by human beings in the form of ahadith does not mean that God has not protected it.

Ok, just give me the Quran verse that says that he has protected these hadiths, that these hadiths are truth, and that the system that has been used for years is incapable of error.

The question should be "Why do you believe this?". Do you believe this becuase of Quran? or becuase of what people have told you?

Again, to me, believing in the Quran is a matter of faith, and it serves as a central for what I believe (besides God). If it's not in the Quran then I can't believe it. Where does the Quran speak of what you are saying?

Because it is completely mutawâtir. The Qur'an has been transmitted to us through an innumerable of chains of narration. There are many ahadith which are mutawâtir as well.

I believe that the Quran has been written down since its existance.

So a human being is not an authority on whether God exists or not, but a medical physican is an authority in medicine, a physicist is an authority on physics, a chemist on chemistry, and a scholar of Hadith (Muhaddith) is an authority on the sciences of Ahadith. And I am not quoting just one scholar of hadith, I am quoting the unanimous consensus of all scholars of Hadith for over a millenium. The scholars of hadith are an authority on hadith sciences. Secondly, You are comparing academic enquiry to faith. Researching the reliability of a group of narrators in a chain is incomparable to the rejection of faith by some people.

So are you saying that physician is incapable of error in medicine? A physicist is incapable error in pysics? A chemist incapable of of error in chemistry?

Every hadith which has been unanimously accepted by the scholars of hadith as authentic, is authentic, especially if the only ones who reject it are those who have no education in the sciences of hadith.

You keep saying "unanimously"..... I have to disagree. If that was the case there would be ONE school of thought among Muslims... Also let me remind you that we are not allowed to talk about sects on this board, but only if I could... your "unanimous" inquiry would be so totally out the window.

If you live in a house then you have already trusted your life to those who constructed and designed it so that it wouldn't collapse. The same is true for every technology, mechanism, medicine, etc. that you rely on daily.

But while I may give them my trust, I would never say that their work proves "divine" knowlege of construction, and that my house would never fall down. I believe that you on the other hand are willing to say that not one "authentic hadith" is wrong.

Not 'another man' - it is Anas ibn Maalik, the companion of the Prophet explicitly saying that he recorded the sayings of the Prophet pbuh and verified them with him.

And this is what poeple say Anas ibn Maalik did.

Interesting how you have nothing to say in response to this, except to reject it since it doesn't suit your desires.

Why are you getting personal with my faith and reducing everything down to what suits my desires? I don't like the taste of my own medicine.

It's actually funny that you say this considering the fact that I walked around for several hours today wishing to buy the bikinies that I saw when searching for something to wear to swim in, but choosing to instead follow what I believe would be a correct form of dress according to God's rules.

I accept it as the truth because the narration has been scrutinised by scholars of hadith and they have found it to be authentic - just as you would accept the diagnosis of a medical doctor on a patient if it was confirmed by virtually every medical doctor.

But we are know that a medical doctor is capable of errors.

If anything, I would like for you to realize the capability of error.

It is not too late to change your attitude: you can start learning about the hadith sciences and find out why the Muslim scholars unanimously accept them.

I keep reminding myself that we are forbidden to talk about sects on this board.

Is it? Using the Qur'an tell me how mank rak'ah in each salat, what must be recited in salah, how do we shorten our salat when travelling?

I meant to say that it's just not enough for poeple (but it's enough for me of course). I won't get into the performance of salat because that's a different discussion, and we haven't finished with the one that we are on. But like I said, the Quran is detailed and clear-- it says it, itself. It's up to you believe it or not.

No, but I'm going to deny your understanding of the passage and I see now that you cannot respond to the verse I cited. Maybe now you need to admit that the Qur'an has been explained by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh who was divinely inspired by Allah to do this.

What the heck? I don't deny the Quran. The Quran is already clear on the issue: it's clear, it's detailed, it explains. I provided the verses for you. I'm not going to denounce what the QUran has said just becuase YOU may not eleive it. And excuse me but I've already told you that I believe in everything the Quran says, even the ones about the Messenger.

Like I said before, the question now becomes whether the ahadith are authentic or not, and for you to be able to answer that you need to study the hadith sciences. What you are finding now is that you have no reason to reject hadith except due to ignorance, which it is your duty as a Muslim to eliminate,

I have plenty of reason to reject hadiths. Bottom line is I don't believe that they are authentic. I can care less about the science of them, becuase guess what? I have not read anything in the Quran that endorses the way that people prove a hadith is authentic! You on the other hand have taken the method and have seemed to have labeled it incapable of error. I believe in nothign that has error.

salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by samobosna96

oh yeah by the way if you dont believe in hadith, how do you pray? you cant practice islam without the hadith.

Haven't the prayers of salah, zakah, pilgrimage and saom come down to us from Ibrahim (pbuh)? Aren't we on Ibrahim's (pbuh) religion refubrished by Mohammed (pbuh)?

Salaam Ansar,

So you acknowledge that not only are you ignorant of hadith sciences,
but you have struggles with your eemaan as well.

Your comment is quite low and it only shows that you are an immature being. Plain and simple, I give you an example to reject your idea htat I only believe in things that suit me and you can only make the assertion that I "struggle" with my deen. Your actions only make you out to be a hypocrtite becuase last time I checked you weren't sinless.

Actually my eemaan is quite strong considering the fact that I follow what I believe rathar than my own desires becuase ALlah knows best. Your seems to be quite low because you can only resort to personal attacks in a discussion.

salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by M H Kahn

Haven't the prayers of salah, zakah, pilgrimage and saom come down to us from Ibrahim (pbuh)? Aren't we on Ibrahim's (pbuh) religion refubrished by Mohammed (pbuh)?

you tell me where i can find the scrolls of abraham (AS) ????

brother! its simple if u do not beleive in hadith then tell me are u reading paryers.........are u making wadoo..........in quran there is nothing about prayers like how to read how much rakats we have to payer.....yeh i know in quran ALLAH said again and again about prayers.......and its our job to do it but if u do not beleive in hadith how you will know how and howmuch and what to read in prayers.........as its not in quran...........thats we have hadith to exaplian things which are not explain in quran but holy Prophet(P.B.U.M) told us all about prayers..........so thats y its important 4 a muslim to believe in it.....otherwise may be u are not a muslim if u are not beleiving our Prophet(P.B.U.H)...........and there are other lot of things which hadith only explains......so plz make a tuuba and may ALLAH 4 give u and allah of u and may ALLAH give us ability to understand the quran nad hadith
i hope this will clear your mind INSAHALLAH.

format_quote Originally Posted by BoiStop

Salaam,

Again, can any of you all establish hadiths through the Quran? can of you?

salaam

Guess what!

World Wars 1 and 2 never happened.

Nepoleon never existed.

Mongols never attacked Muslims

Spain was never ruled by Muslims

Wright Bros didn't invent airplane

Edison never invented the bulb.

BBC and CNN are not reliable because they always lie.

History subject should be kicked out of the academics.

.............

well, i may as well wonder whether i was really born at my parents'?

If Hadith can be rejected altogether, what can't be

Prayers

Salaam Shorab,

format_quote Originally Posted by Sohrab

Guess what!

World Wars 1 and 2 never happened.

Nepoleon never existed.

Mongols never attacked Muslims

Spain was never ruled by Muslims

Wright Bros didn't invent airplane

Edison never invented the bulb.

BBC and CNN are not reliable because they always lie.

History subject should be kicked out of the academics.

.............

well, i may as well wonder whether i was really born at my parents'?

If Hadith can be rejected altogether, what can't be

Prayers

And history is defined by what man defines and what man takes as true. Plain and simple. THe western world has a different view of all of those things from the eastern world. I'm not saying that it could have never existed, I'm only asking can you gaurantee 100% accuracy on all of their aco----s, not 99% not 99.9999%?

It's become evident that some people's faith is about numbers and likely of.

salaam

Salaam Ansar Al-'Adl,

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Irrelevant again. If the teachings are transmitted to you by numerous reliable people the you would be obliged to accept it.

And who says that these people are reliable? God or man?

Everything you say all seems to go back on the perception of man, which I'm sure you acknowledge is sinful and decietful at times. NOTHING you are saying is coming from the perception of God.

"If they are reliable".... who says that they are reliable? God or man?

If God said it, ok. If man said it, then obviously there is going to be error... unless you believe that even man can achieve perfection.

The Prophet pbuh himself sent his companions to different places to give Da'wah and spread his teachings.

So are you saying that all knowledge coming from the Messenger passe through his companions first?

Are you suggesting Prophet pbuh spoke in an inaudible fashion such that no one could be certain of what he said? The Prophet pbuh was known for clearly explaining things to his companions.

Excuse me but you are the one who said:

If they couldn't hear the Prophet pbuh clearly, they would mention such or they wouldn't transmit the statement.

That's why I asked you, becuase of your own statement, if you believe that some knowledge has been lost.

If they didn't hear him they would ask.

You are now contradicting yourself because you just said that they wouldn't transmit the info. if they couldn't hear him.

No divine knowledge was lost because the Prophet pbuh conveyed all of it clearly and audibly to his companions.

So you believe that all divine knowledge had passed through the companions first?

Reliable scholars.

Again, based on the perception of man. Not God, correct?

There is an entire science on the narrators of ahadith which you can study so you know who these people were.

And again the perception that they are reliable, trustworthy, etc, etc is all based on the perception of man. There is no revelation from God that says so and so is a reliable and trustworthy perception, correct? Correct. So again, this perception that they are reliable, trustworthy, etc, etc is based on the perception of man... therefore there can be error.

When a source is confirmed by multiple other sources it is regarded as even more reliable and trustworthy. Are you suggesting that the entire Muslim ummah at that time was composed of liars?!

No, I'm not say that they were liars... I'm only asking who gave them the right to write what their fathers told them was true? Who gauranteed every thing they heard was perserved, and protected? Who told them such and such was a reliable and trustworthy person? God or man?

I'm not saying that these people are "liars" (their intention was to lie), I'm only asking where did they get such authority and recognition? God or man?

When Allah swt says that He has protected all revelation sent down to the Prophet pbuh (eg. 15:9), this necessitates the inclusion of the divinely inspired teachings of the Prophet pbuh which clarify the Qur'an.

I only believe that the Quran was the only thing inspired to him, you don't.

It is inconceivable that Allah swt would only protect the text of the Qur'an and not the entire message on how to use it and apply it in our lives.

Again, why hasn't the Quran gone through a system of "authentication"?

Not on the hadith unanimously accepted as authentic.

The chain of narrators is examined and if it is fount to be authentic, it is accepted.

And again, their leaders would only be called reliable, trustworthy, nice, respectable, devout, pious, etc, etc by people... not God.

And all of the Prophet pbuh's teachings have been preserved.

But you just said that some things the companions wouldn't transmit because of lack of hearing.

But the Prophet isn't alive today so your comment doesn't make any sense. It was his companions who were alive and they transmitted his teachings. If you are trying to ask how reliable they were then you can research the following names:
Abu Hurayrah, Abdullah ibn Umar, Anas ibn Maalik, Aisha bint Abi Bakr, Jaabir ibn Abdillah, Abdullah ibn Abbas, Abu Said Al-Khudri, Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Al-'As, etc.

You seem to have the belief that all knowledge was passed through the companions first, is that true?

I have answered this dozens of times. You have already admitted that since the Qur'an endorses following and accepting the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh, the appropriate question to ask should be whether the teachings of the Prophet pbuh have been authentically preserved in the Ahadith or not.

No, I have not admitted to anything based on your idea of what I accept.

What I accept is the QUran only, therefore I believe that it is the Quran that only the Messenger spoke of and is the only thing that was inspired to he Messenger. That is it. I didn't get into detail with you about what I believe he has explained, but you should look at the Quran and see what the Quran has commanded the Messenger to say at times. And I don't believe that we are commanded to follow the SUnnah of the PRophet, I believe that we are commanded to follow the SUnnah of Allah.

And the truth of the matter is that it is inconceivable for Allah swt to allow the teachings of the final Prophet to be lost.

Ok, well show me the Quran verse that says that Allah has protected the Quran and more.

No one ever questions the saheeh hadith just as no one ever questioned the Qur'an.

Please give me the Quran verse that says that the Saheeh haidths are divine.

Exactly. So all your comments about the hadith being a 'system of man' are red-herrings because you acknowledge that Allah swt can protect His message through the systems of man.

You are missing the point of what I am saying... I am asking you point out the QUran verse that says that ALlah has protected these hadiths by a system that man had created.

All of them are capable of error on their own, just as one hadith scholar is. But the entire consensus of hadith scholars can not all agree on an error.

And who told you that they cannot?

If all the doctors of the world agreed on something, people would say only a fool would reject it.

And based on perception, back in the day most scientists accepted the "fact" that the Sun revolved around the Earth.

I never said the scholars had 'divine knowledge', they just preserved it by the will of Allah swt.

Quran verse please?

And even if you do not say that your house would never fall down, you know yourself such a notion to be a massive improbability so you continue to live in your house.

So now your faith is based on numbers?

See when I accept God, I do not say "It is improbable that he is not God".

When you accept hadith, are you saying, "It is improbable that it is not true"?

Either way you are leaving room for for the possibility of error. I accept God and no word that bases itself on numbers is used. He IS God.

When you go to your medical doctor and he recommends a medicine for you would you stand up and say, "How do I know you're right! Show me in the medical textbooks where I have to drink this!" - no, you accept his sayings without question. Now imagine if all the greatest medical doctors in then world were agreed on this. That is analogous to the case of the hadith scholars, yet laymen like yourself have no hesitation in standing up and advancing their ill-informed opinions in opposition.

But it still does not mean that they are incapable of error!

salaam

Salaam Ahmed,

format_quote Originally Posted by Ähmed

One simple question boistop:

But you have 3.

Since the Quran came to he Prophet (SAW) and the hadiths were his sayings, how do you know that the Quran is not hadith and vice versa?

1.) For me accepting the Quran is a matter of faith.
2.) I believe that the Quran is the central figure around my faith (besides accepting God and his oneness). Therefore everything that I believe as "divine" is stemmed from the teachings of the Quran.
3.) I believe that the Quran IS a hadith becuase it describes itself as a hadith.

You do realize that by accepting the Quran you are accepting something that the Prophet first said to the people? What is your basis of identifying the Quran apart from the Hadith, for all you know they can be the one and the same.

Like I said, I believe that accepting the Quran is a matter of faith and that it is the central figure around my faith (besides accepting God and his oneness).

To reject the Hadith is infact a rejection of the Quran. Read the Quran, itll lead you to the Sunnah and the Hadiths, i.e. The Hikmah that Allah mentions in so many places.

Please don't forget the Quran is the book of Wisdom.

salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by BoiStop

Salaam Shorab,




And history is defined by what man defines and what man takes as true. Plain and simple. THe western world has a different view of all of those things from the eastern world. I'm not saying that it could have never existed, I'm only asking can you gaurantee 100% accuracy on all of their aco----s, not 99% not 99.9999%?

It's become evident that some people's faith is about numbers and likely of.

salaam

Just because one can't guarantee 100% accuracy of something, doesn't mean you reject it all together. Newton's laws of motion do not hold true in systems with extremely high velocities, and very small masses, as was evidenced by Einstein.

People who compiled hadith were aware of the fact that accepting everything we get as a hadith is as dangerous as rejecting it altogether. That's why they had to assign each hadith with a rating, which would indicate it's health...both of the source of the hadith, and the content it contains.

I won't throw away an 18 carat gold brick, just becuase it's not 24 carat, and thus impure. With a little effort you can make it more pure, and that's what i believe our Hadith compilers have done. Hats off to them.

P.S. I don't encourage attacking one's character, and in that, i assure u, i agree with you totally.

Prayers