Scans see 'gay brain differences'

**Uthman** · 06-17-2008

The brains of gay men and women look like those found in heterosexual people of the opposite sex, research suggests.

The Swedish study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences journal, compared the size of the brain's halves in 90 adults.

Gay men and heterosexual women had halves of a similar size, while the right side was bigger in lesbian women and heterosexual men.

A UK scientist said this was evidence sexual orientation was set in the womb.

start quote rb 1 - Scans see 'gay brain differences'

start quote rb 1 - Scans see 'gay brain differences'

As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay end quote rb 1 - Scans see 'gay brain differences'

Queen Mary, University of London

Scientists have noticed for some time that homosexual people of both sexes have differences in certain cognitive abilities, suggesting there may be subtle differences in their brain structure.

This is the first time, however, that scientists have used brain scanners to try to look for the source of those differences.

A group of 90 healthy gay and heterosexual adults, men and women, were scanned by the Karolinska Institute scientists to measure the volume of both sides, or hemispheres, of their brain.

When these results were collected, it was found that lesbians and heterosexual men shared a particular "asymmetry" in their hemisphere size, while heterosexual women and gay men had no difference between the size of the different halves of their brain.

In other words, structurally, at least, the brains of gay men were more like heterosexual women, and gay women more like heterosexual men.

A further experiment found that in one particular area of the brain, the amygdala, there were other significant differences.

In heterosexual men and gay women, there were more nerve "connections" in the right side of the amygdala, compared with the left.

The reverse, with more neural connections in the left amygdala, was the case in homosexual men and heterosexual women.

The Karolinska team said that these differences could not be mainly explained by "learned" effects, but needed another mechanism to set them, either before or after birth.

'Fight, flight or mate'

Dr Qazi Rahman, a lecturer in cognitive biology at Queen Mary, University of London, said that he believed that these brain differences were laid down early in foetal development.

"As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay," he said.

The amygdala, he said, was important because of its role in "orientating", or directing, the rest of the brain in response to an emotional stimulus - be it during the "fight or flight" response, or the presence of a potential mate.

"In other words, the brain network which determines what sexual orientation actually 'orients' towards is similar between gay men and straight women, and between gay women and straight men.

"This makes sense given that gay men have a sexual preference which is like that of women in general, that is, preferring men, and vice versa for lesbian women."

**IbnAbdulHakim** · 06-19-2008

Homosexuality is with two consenting adults

^ this is one of the most self-centered arguments ever.

People use "consenting" to make everything ok. They dont even look at what it does to society and people as a whole, how it breed's chaos among the norm.

the fornication of "two consenting adults" has already caused humanity their loss of shame and dignity, and now we're bringing into it the homosexual acts of "two consenting adults"!? just how much further will we drop? the acts of "two consenting under 16's? because with this society ANYTHING seems possible !

As for the original post, before reading anything further icequeen's same question popped into my head,

"let them predict the homosexuality of babies and then say "there is no longer anything to debate about!""!

Peace

Thank you brother Osman, that was an interesting read

**root** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by aamirsaab

It's common sense and a little bit of biology.

As predicted. Your stated fact is nothing of the sort. It's simply an interpretation of your OWN opinion.

Originally Posted by aamirsaab

Humans cannot procreate if they are committing homosexuality..

Agreed. This though does not mean homosexuals cannot procreate.

Therefore, you cannot be born gay (since it'd have to come from your genetic makeup - since both of your parents would have to be heterosexual for you to have been born in the first place,

I don't think individuals with a gay parent would agree with you. And since for individual basis reasons such people exist, your premis is just wrong.

there is zero possibility of you obtaining a gay gene from them - even if your genetics were to skip a generation, homosexuality PREVENTS passing on the gene in the first place) Hence you cannot be born gay.

And yet homosexuality is very common in humans and across the worlds species. Your premis is deeply flawed.

Malaikah - Are you serious? Violence or not, he still abused the children!

Your point referenced physical attraction to a women and rape, hence it was not relavent to this case.

IbnAbdulHakim the fornication of "two consenting adults" has already caused humanity their loss of shame and dignity, and now we're bringing into it the homosexual acts of "two consenting adults"!? just how much further will we drop? the acts of "two consenting under 16's? because with this society ANYTHING seems possible !

Homophobic ranting is all I see in your post. Perhaps you prefer a society that throws them from the top of the highest cliff, that's your choice.

**IbnAbdulHakim** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by root

Homophobic ranting is all I see in your post.

Then perhaps you should open your mind and look deeper because ranting isnt even a part of my post, i intended to make a clear point and i can only hope i have done so

Perhaps you prefer a society that throws them from the top of the highest cliff, that's your choice.

please dont quote me next time unless you have something constructive to say

you have called my concern for society and its downfall a "homophobic rant", i hope next time you will have the manners to at least correct me and help improve any flaws i may have in what i have, in your words, "ranted" about.

**aamirsaab** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by root

I don't think individuals with a gay parent would agree with you.

Gay parents usually turn gay AFTER the child is born. Only other occasion I could think that supports any counter to my statement is that of adoption - but that's not a genetic link so doesn't really count.

And since for individual basis reasons such people exist, your premis is just wrong.

Homosexuality is in most cases usually: learnt (through environment), developed over time (i.e from attraction to intercourse) or based on conformity to social norms (sometimes a mixture of the three). The initial attraction a human has (i.e is born with) for either sex does not define them as hetero or homo. This study is essentially saying that yes it does define you as homo. Which would mean lack of choice in your own sexuality, which would therefore lead us to the existence of fate - something athiests like to deny!

And yet homosexuality is very common in humans and across the worlds species. Your premis is deeply flawed.

As I said; it cannot be genetically inherited. Murder is also as common in humans but we all know that murder is not genetically inherited. Homosexuality (something which prevents humanity from surviving ergo a detriment to mankinds existence) cannot be passed on genetically.

**Whatsthepoint** · 06-19-2008

This is news I guess.

Several hundred gay couples tie knot in California

18 hours ago

LOS ANGELES (AFP) — Several hundred gay and lesbian couples were married in California on the first full day of legalized same-sex weddings, a tally of official figures and local media reports showed Wednesday.

In Los Angeles County, where same-sex couples scrambled to tie the knot on Tuesday, a total of 648 marriage certificates were registered. The average daily number of marriages in June is 194, registrar Dean Logan said.

In Orange and San Diego Counties, which account for around three million people, around 300 marriage certificates were granted to homosexual couples, according to local press reports.

Meanwhile in San Francisco, 152 marriage licenses were granted to same-sex couples, according to the San Francisco Chronicle.

Around 200,000 people are married each year across California, the most populous US state with 37 million inhabitants.

In a landmark decision last month, the California Supreme Court overturned a ban on same-sex marriage, making California only the second US state after Massachusetts to allow gays and lesbians to wed.

Around 51,000 of the 102,000 same-sex couples living in California are expected to marry over the next three years, according to a recent University of California Los Angeles study.

A further 67,500 couples from outside the state are expected to wed in California during the same period.

**AvarAllahNoor** · 06-19-2008

You have to ask yourselves (those that are against it and use abuse towards people that are that way inclined) Do you really THINK a person would choose to be gay/bi? although it's accepted today, do you think it's a desired choice to live this way? It's not. the ridicule, the animosity from people and the self loathing felt by them of why he/she is like this. So many people take the suicide route, why? if it's that desirable, why would they do this? think before you target those that are different, Allah creates EVERYTHING. So in a sense you'd be going against His decision!

**aamirsaab** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

You have to ask yourselves (those that are agaisnt it and use abuse towards people that are that way inclined) Do you really THINK a person would choose to be gay/bi? although it's accpeted today, do you think it's a desired choice to live this way? It's not. the ridicule, the animosity frompeople and the self loathing of why he/she is like this. So many people take the suicide route, why? if it's that desirable, why would they do this? think before toy target those that are diffrent, Allah creates EVERYTHING. So in a sense you'd be going against His decision!

The action is the sin, not the thought process. To commit the act of sodomy, requires intent. To think oneself is homosexual, this is not a sin (it's a thought and thoughts arent punished in Islam) - only actions can be used as grounds for any sort of punishment.

I believe theres is a hadith regarding this: if a person thinks of doing a good deed he will be reward 1 good deed. If he acts upon that deed, he will receive 10. If he thinks of doing a bad deed, he will receive no punishment. If he acts on that, he will receive 1 bad deed.

So clearly, its actually weighted in favour of thinking good things!

**IbnAbdulHakim** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

You have to ask yourselves (those that are agaisnt it and use abuse towards people that are that way inclined) Do you really THINK a person would choose to be gay/bi? although it's accpeted today, do you think it's a desired choice to live this way? It's not. the ridicule, the animosity frompeople and the self loathing of why he/she is like this. So many people take the suicide route, why? if it's that desirable, why would they do this? think before toy target those that are diffrent, Allah creates EVERYTHING. So in a sense you'd be going against His decision!

Bro if a man can be clean but after, by his very own free-will, he rolls in mud can become dirty,
If a man can be an innocent pure baby and then, by his own free-will, becomes a homicidal maniac,
then whats to stop us from suggesting that just as the boy who didnt resist the urge to roll in mud, or the homicidal maniac who cant resist killing, that these homosexuals didnt reject or resist former inclinations and desires which ultimately lead to this mentality of "this is who i am, i can no longer help it".

All fires start small and then rage, the fire of homosexuality might have been extinguished at an early stage, they have transgressed themselves, God didnt MAKE them like that as you seen to think.

In islaam we have a belief that the more you sin the more black your heart becomes, until it covers your whole heart and you can no longer "help it". This doesnt just go for homosexuality but many many sins...

they havent proved we're born this way, they've only found a pattern between 90 adults.

Peace

**Malaikah** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by aamirsaab

Homosexuality (something which prevents humanity from surviving ergo a detriment to mankinds existence) cannot be passed on genetically.

Are you trying to say that it can't be inherited because it is detrimental? I'm not sure how that logic works since it is well known that disease is inherited and disease is also detrimental to mankind...

**root** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by aamirsaab

Gay parents usually turn gay AFTER the child is born. Only other occasion I could think that supports any counter to my statement is that of adoption - but that's not a genetic link so doesn't really count..

"Usually" "Possibly" "Perhaps" "Maybe"

How do you know they usually "turn" gay AFTER. Who is to say they were already gay but scared of homophobic people and homophobic religion(s). If your going to stake a claim as ridiculous as what you have done, bring forth the evidence or stop expecting us to accept your opinion as a given fact.

Homosexuality is in most cases usually: learnt (through environment), developed over time (i.e from attraction to intercourse) or based on conformity to social norms (sometimes a mixture of the three). The initial attraction a human has (i.e is born with) for either sex does not define them as hetero or homo. This study is essentially saying that yes it does define you as homo. Which would mean lack of choice in your own sexuality, which would therefore lead us to the existence of fate - something athiests like to deny!

I agree with you here, either way we simply cannot state that being "Gay" is a learned trait or as the article implies and you agree given to you a high probility of homosexuality.

I disagree with atheist's and fate, we don't deny it at this level. I have a gene that predisposes me to a high colestoral level for the future. It's not fate parsae, but it will explain where my high blood pressure arised when it does and allows me to take better care of myself before it happens

Originally Posted by aamirsaab

:As I said; it cannot be genetically inherited. Murder is also as common in humans but we all know that murder is not genetically inherited. Homosexuality (something which prevents humanity from surviving ergo a detriment to mankinds existence) cannot be passed on genetically.

And you keep saying it, perhaps if you say it enough times some people will believe you. Despite your lack of scientific evidence that simply says you cannot make that claim

**AvarAllahNoor** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim

All fires start small and then rage, the fire of homosexuality might have been extinguished at an early stage, they have transgressed themselves, God didnt MAKE them like that as you seen to think.

Peace

My Religion tells me God did make them this way, and so shall I beleive it. Nobody here can tell me it's not predestined. Everything is done according to Gods will, those that claim this to be true, then contradict themselves, well you need to re-asses what exactly do you follow within your religion!

**IbnAbdulHakim** · 06-19-2008

^you know a while ago i wondered if God could create them with such urges as he creates a blind man as a test. We get all sorts of disabled births, but i'll leave this upto wiser people.

Whatever the case is, i believe it to be a forbidden act, one which should be struggled against

**AvarAllahNoor** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by root

"Usually" "Possibly" "Perhaps" "Maybe"

How do you know they usually "turn" gay AFTER. Who is to say they were already gay but scared of homophobic people and homophobic religion(s). If your going to stake a claim as ridiculous as what you have done, bring forth the evidence or stop expecting us to accept your opinion as a given fact.

Majority of cases this is true. Some are so against being homosexual, that they would pretend that they are hetro, indulge in marriage children, but the urges are too strong to ignore hence them comng out after.

**AvarAllahNoor** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim

^you know a while ago i wondered if God could create them with such urges as he creates a blind man as a test. We get all sorts of disabled births, but i'll leave this upto wiser people.

Whatever the case is, i believe it to be a forbidden act, one which should be struggled against

That's a personal opinion and what Islam teaches. I'm told tolerance is the way, and God alone can judge at the end, not mere humans who act high and mighty as we all do.

''Kaho Nanak Sab Kuch Tumare Hath Main (Sayeth Oh Nanak, Everything Is in His Hands (Gods)''

**root** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

Majority of cases this is true. Some are so against being homosexual, that they would pretend that they are hetro, indulge in marriage children, but the urges are too strong to ignore hence them comng out after.

How do you know?

**AvarAllahNoor** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by root

How do you know?

It's common knowledge isn't it. Barrymore? Elton John? to name a few. Both married, then divorced as they came to terms with their homosexuality. Some asians are the same, they marry as it's a taboo subject within the Asian culture. I also have a gay/bi friends who are/were this way. It don't bother me, it's the person who matters not the sexuality which is trivial.

**aamirsaab** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by root

"Usually" "Possibly" "Perhaps" "Maybe"

How do you know they usually "turn" gay AFTER. Who is to say they were already gay but scared of homophobic people and homophobic religion(s). If your going to stake a claim as ridiculous as what you have done, bring forth the evidence or stop expecting us to accept your opinion as a given fact.

Clearly then we have to define homosexuality. To me, unless you've committed sodomy, you're not gay.

I disagree with atheist's and fate, we don't deny it at this level. I have a gene that predisposes me to a high colestoral level for the future. It's not fate parsae, but it will explain where my high blood pressure arised when it does and allows me to take better care of myself before it happens

Could you say the same for one's sexuality (at the very most, genes can aid in predisposition - this I readily accept)?

And you keep saying it, perhaps if you say it enough times some people will believe you. Despite your lack of scientific evidence that simply says you cannot make that claim

Why do I need to scientifically back up a biologically and psychologically proven statement? If homosexuality could be passed on, we'd have no need for a member of the opposite sex. It's clearly something that prevents passing the genes on and so you cannot pass it on unless you are heterosexual which would mean you aren't homo. Unless you committed sodomy then had intercourse with a member of opposite sex and therefore passed on your genes. In which case, you'd require a dna sample and a brain scan before and after the act of sodomy and intercourse (to ascertain whether or not that person could be categorised, on a genetic level atleast, as homosexual or heterosexual). As of yet, I've heard of no such tests being done so as far as I am concerned, you cannot be born gay.

Although, this premise relies on my definition of homosexuality as someone who has committed sodomy (since I do not believe you can be called a homosexual based solely on your thoughts and have yet to see or hear of any evidence that suggests one can be).

This particular research study cannot be used to prove the existence of a being born gay.

**root** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

It's common knowledge isn't it. Barrymore? Elton John? to name a few. Both married, then divorced as they came to terms with their homosexuality. Some asians are the same, they marry as it's a taboo subject within the Asian culture. I also have a gay/bi friends who are/were this way. It don't bother me, it's the person who matters not the sexuality which is trivial.

It's common knowledge that nails & hair continue growth for a while after death, that does not mean it's true.

We have to back up what we say, not simply pass it off as "common knowledge". Perhaps the west's greater acceptence of it now means what your claiming is wrong. Perhaps not. Either way we need to show what we say is backed up!

**Whatsthepoint** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by aamirsaab

Clearly then we have to define homosexuality. To me, unless you've committed sodomy, you're not gay.

So you're saying sexual orientiation cannot be determined until one's had sex?

**root** · 06-19-2008

Originally Posted by aamirsaab

Clearly then we have to define homosexuality. To me, unless you've committed sodomy, you're not gay. Could you say the same for one's sexuality (at the very most, genes can aid in predisposition - this I readily accept)?.

Can I refer you to the beginning of our debate:

Without actually hitting the reverse gear and defending the "definition" of "Gay". Can you back that statement up with just 1 single peer reviewed paper????? many thanks.