The brains of gay men and women look like those found in heterosexual people of the opposite sex, research suggests.
The Swedish study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences journal, compared the size of the brain's halves in 90 adults.
Gay men and heterosexual women had halves of a similar size, while the right side was bigger in lesbian women and heterosexual men.
A UK scientist said this was evidence sexual orientation was set in the womb.
As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay Queen Mary, University of London
Scientists have noticed for some time that homosexual people of both sexes have differences in certain cognitive abilities, suggesting there may be subtle differences in their brain structure.
This is the first time, however, that scientists have used brain scanners to try to look for the source of those differences.
A group of 90 healthy gay and heterosexual adults, men and women, were scanned by the Karolinska Institute scientists to measure the volume of both sides, or hemispheres, of their brain.
When these results were collected, it was found that lesbians and heterosexual men shared a particular "asymmetry" in their hemisphere size, while heterosexual women and gay men had no difference between the size of the different halves of their brain.
In other words, structurally, at least, the brains of gay men were more like heterosexual women, and gay women more like heterosexual men.
A further experiment found that in one particular area of the brain, the amygdala, there were other significant differences.
In heterosexual men and gay women, there were more nerve "connections" in the right side of the amygdala, compared with the left.
The reverse, with more neural connections in the left amygdala, was the case in homosexual men and heterosexual women.
The Karolinska team said that these differences could not be mainly explained by "learned" effects, but needed another mechanism to set them, either before or after birth.
'Fight, flight or mate'
Dr Qazi Rahman, a lecturer in cognitive biology at Queen Mary, University of London, said that he believed that these brain differences were laid down early in foetal development.
"As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay," he said.
The amygdala, he said, was important because of its role in "orientating", or directing, the rest of the brain in response to an emotional stimulus - be it during the "fight or flight" response, or the presence of a potential mate.
"In other words, the brain network which determines what sexual orientation actually 'orients' towards is similar between gay men and straight women, and between gay women and straight men.
"This makes sense given that gay men have a sexual preference which is like that of women in general, that is, preferring men, and vice versa for lesbian women."
Last edited by Uthman; 06-17-2008 at 06:57 PM.
Reason: Link removed
"I spent thirty years learning manners, and I spent twenty years learning knowledge."
So you're saying sexual orientiation cannot be determined until one's had sex?
No, I'm saying I define a homosexual as one who has commited the act of sodomy. Sexual orientation is determined by a number of things (namely proximity, familiarity and so on and so forth)
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
No, I'm saying I define a homosexual as one who has commited the act of sodomy. Sexual orientation is determined by a number of things (namely proximity, familiarity and so on and so forth)
The "gay Gene" is a misleader and I suspect you know this too. Additionally, your sources are dated no earlier than 1999. Nearly 10 years ago, Genetics has come along way since then. Science does not take the position of a single gay gene, rarther a multiple of factors including genes.
Your statement that it is genetically impossible to pas gay genes is flawed
...
Your statement that it is genetically impossible to pas gay genes is flawed
I've done some research on this matter - though nothing recent. It seems that the X chromosme from the mother apparently leads to homosexuality (though this is balanced by the Y chromosome from the father which leads to heterosexuality!) In which case, given that humans by default have an amount of attraction from birth (neccessary for us to survive as a species, else we wouldn't trust our own gender nor would we have any aspirition to adopt their characteristics aka role models), you are not born with a definitive sexuality. You're given equal amonts of homo and hetero predisposition. Your upbringing/environment will ulimately sway you to 4 possible outcomes; hetero, homo, asexual and bi.
So technically speaking, we're both right.
edit:
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
aamirsaab, isn't your argument a bit like saying no child could be born infertile because it *must* be passed on from the parents?
Sort of except I would place homosexuality as something one has a control over (again, this uses the definition of someone committing sodomy to be counted as a homosexual) whereas infertility and other diseases are something one does not have a choice with.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
OK, I see, but I think using the term homosexual causes a little confusion, since it's apparent that noone is born a practicing homosexual and the term is generally used to denote sexual preference as much as sexual acts.
OK, I see, but I think using the term homosexual causes a little confusion, since it's apparent that noone is born a practicing homosexual and the term is generally used to denote sexual preference as much as sexual acts.
Well, I take the definition in accordance to my religious teachings. So maybe I'm biased .
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Homosexuality is a psychological condition, whether or not they feel an inclination isn't the issue.. pederasts also feel an inclination toward fresh young pubertal altar boys, while one makes folks cringe and is punishable by law, the other for some reason is celebrated and applauded.. even though they are essentially one in the same!
format_quote Originally Posted by root
I found this research very interesting, confirming what science has suspected for a long time. In particular we already know that the amygdala is largely responsible for sexual orientation, so to see it also implicated here was good news that steady progress is being made.
I agree and disagree with your point, Homosexuality is with two consenting adults, "fresh young pubertal alter boys" are not at an age of consent.
This topic reminds me of a well documented case in the US, where an otherwise healthy adult family male with a "normal" sexual desire started to become sexually aroused by peadophilia, progressively it became worse and he started to sexually molest his own children.
Being caught by the state he was promptly jailed where after several months of persistant complaining of progrssively worseining headaches he recieved a brain scan showing a brain tumour applying considerable pressure to the amygdala.
After his brain operation to remove the tumour his sexual desire returned to "normal" losing all sexual arousal for peadophilia. 9 months later, he reported that his sexual desire was "changing" again back to peadophilia and he was immediately brain scanned which revealed that the tumour had returned and was again applying pressure on the amgdala. The tumour was removed once more and his sexual desire returned to "normal" and has remained normal to this day.
Not only does this case give us an valuable insight into the brain mechanics of sexual orientation but strikes at the very notion of free will.
Was this man responsible for his actions.
Did this man have free will
Should this man be treated & punished or treated and released
Either way, both articles provide us with enough caution that sexual desire is not as black and white as we would like to believe.
Are you saying that 13 year olds don't consent to sex?
as for medical conditions that cause hyper sexual behavior homosexual or otherwise (Klüver-Bucy syndrome) as an example typically understood as a genuine pathology that causes behavioral changes.. as opposed to simply subjective feelings of erotica to the same sex
You can't define pain or a headache, the same way you define Alzheimer's disease or schizophrenia.. one you are typically relying on the individual bias which is founded entirely within the mind, and the other, there are pathological findings ascertained on a slide, or a chemistry panel etc!
I don't believe, we'll find an accurate way to 'measure' homosexuality anymore than we'll find an accurate way to measure pain.. we'll still have to rely on the subject's view....
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
We have to back up what we say, not simply pass it off as "common knowledge". Perhaps the west's greater acceptence of it now means what your claiming is wrong. Perhaps not. Either way we need to show what we say is backed up!
What? have you even understood what i'm on about? Seems you're lost. On one hand you supporting it (as i am) on the other hand with my posts you're nit-picking! Now which is it huh??
Ėk Gusā Alhu Mėrā
The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.
Dhan Guru Arjan Dev Mahraaj Ji!
Kal Meh Bėḏ Atharbaṇ Hū Nā Kẖuḏā Alhu Bẖa.
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.
I do agree that increased right brain activity and increased amygdala activity would indicate increased libido. But, that does not necessarily mean the libido would be specificaly oriented.
Poison ivy will result in increased histamine reaction and severe itching, but it will not determine the choice a person makes in scratching the itch.
Increased amygdala function will result in stronger desires, the question is what determines the choice in satisfying or surpressing the desires.
With all due respect, but can we compare sexual desire to scratching an itch??
Sexual desire is strongly ingrained into our human instinct.
I imagine that it must be very difficult to suppress it without suffering psychologically.
Much as I understand the homosexual debate, it seems all to easy for us heterosexual people to glibbly pass judgement on those who are born with homosexual desires ...
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
With all due respect, but can we compare sexual desire to scratching an itch??
Sexual desire is strongly ingrained into our human instinct.
I imagine that it must be very difficult to suppress it without suffering psychologically.
Much as I understand the homosexual debate, it seems all to easy for us heterosexual people to glibbly pass judgement on those who are born with homosexual desires ...
Greetings and peace be unto u glo
Its a mere comparison, however on a totally different scales.
I'd be more careful when saying 'born with homosexual desires'
A child is not born with any sexual desires let alone homosexual ones.
sexual desires 'ingrained'.. interesting indeed..
say one agrees to that vague idea, and places some confidence in it.. what would happen, if we all acted on our ingrained urges? does one have to act on every sexual desire?
hetrosexuals have desires, I think as much as any deviant group? does a man jump a woman in public simply because he has strong urges? that would = to rape
does a necromaniac go robbing fresh graves simply because he can't help his attraction to the newly dead? that would = a crime
Should a pederast go solicit a consenting minor for sodomy.. will that too is punishable by law..
I don't see how anyone of sound mind and body can't control their urges? homos, heteros or otherwise!
enough excuses already!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
OK, not long ago there was news in the paper that penguins were having same gender relations, as well as other animals, what do thy know about what's a sin and not? Explain that to me please.
Ėk Gusā Alhu Mėrā
The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.
Dhan Guru Arjan Dev Mahraaj Ji!
Kal Meh Bėḏ Atharbaṇ Hū Nā Kẖuḏā Alhu Bẖa.
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.
OK, not long ago there was news in the paper that penguins were having same gender relations, as well as other animals, what do thy know about what's a sin and not? Explain that to me please.
Maybe being a Short-legged flightless bird has something to do with it-- they also couplate without marriage or contracts.. take a dump or eat where they need!
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Maybe I'm lost but I dont see what a debate about this inborn gayness or whatever has to do with Islam. People are born with increased tendencies to be violent but it is their choice whether or not to be in fact violent. The same example would extend to homosexuality. Allah knows what tests he gives which people and why.
Just because some animals have homo tendencies does not mean anything. Some animals eat their young, others have sex all the time, the list goes on. I believe that the earth has many signs for us even in the animals and it is our job to discern what these signs mean. Some people beat their children but a mother elephant which is an animal would never do that. Shows how animals could have better relations with children than some people, so we look at that and learn. Some monkeys have sex all the time like I said, and people who have sex all the time with many partners are at the level of animals there. I guess there are signs everywhere in different ways.
Last edited by AntiKarateKid; 06-20-2008 at 12:17 AM.
That's a personal opinion and what Islam teaches. I'm told tolerance is the way, and God alone can judge at the end, not mere humans who act high and mighty as we all do.
''Kaho Nanak Sab Kuch Tumare Hath Main (Sayeth Oh Nanak, Everything Is in His Hands (Gods)''
Honestly your tolerance argument is ridiculous. Whenever religion A forbids something that religion B allows, religion A claims it's more "tolerant". That is ridiculous and frankly irritating. I have heard that some Sikhs belive that it is forbidden to shave their armpit, bear, etc hair. Islam allows say one to shave their armpits. Are we being more "tolerant" or the poor people in the desert who don't have to walk around with turbins ( I see alot of Sikhs wearing them) and alot of hair that keeps them at unbearable temperatures? Perhaps this is a poor example, but the point still stands. I could make many counter "tolerance" claims against you. Give that argument up please, it really makes you look foolish. Laws on sexxual behaviors are there not because we made them, they are there from Allah.
By the way, skimming your posts about predestination, I can see that you are confused about it. We are not contradicting ourselves when we say Allah created a human with more sexual tendencies then asks him to struggle against them. Read up on predestination please.
People may ask, why would God make homosexuality forbidden and then give them desires for it? That surely is contradictive of Islam.
For this reason, alot of people are very rushing in judging such things.
Personally, I think their is alot of evidence that peoples sexuality is somewhat out of control. If something has good evidence, we should try find a logical explanation if this either contradicts or is perfectly fine with religion.
Fornication, is a desire many people have (which they must abstain from). Stealing, when you are in need, is a desire you may have also. Your desire to sin exists all the time - in different ways due to circumstances.
God did not, in the religious sense, create you without desire of sin. Hence, it is perfectly practical, logically, God has made some born with homosexual desires - as a test - as he could have made a man with a very bad temper - or one who has been raised in a highly atheistic society - etc etc. All of those, would seem to point people towards sinfulness. However, the life is ofcourse a test - It is to abstain from desire for God alone - Just having a desire will not send you to hell.
I think this is the best way to go about it, seeing as, evidence does seem to suggest the former query - as well as it making sense.
This is not the same as having a pure fitrah (morality). Someone may see something as wrong yet have the desire for it - or later have their morality skewed by society and so fourth. So, this view does not contradict that you are born with a perfect fitrah.
Having desire for something does not mean you have no sense of morale.
On the authority of Al-Numan bin Basheer, who said : I heared the messenger of Allah say :
"That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know. Thus he who avoids doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honor, but he who falls into doubtful matters falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh which, if it be whole, all the body is whole and which, if it be diseased, all of it is diseased. Truly it is the heart."
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
From a different perspective, if the issue is a physical one with the brain, doesn't that show that homosexuality is not normal but is like a 'disease' of sorts? Is it, perhaps, something we can cure?
I wonder if this means that homosexuals would like to opt for treatment (if that ever becomes possible)
From a different perspective, if the issue is a physical one with the brain, doesn't that show that homosexuality is not normal but is like a 'disease' of sorts? Is it, perhaps, something we can cure?
I wonder if this means that homosexuals would like to opt for treatment (if that ever becomes possible)
Alot of characteristics create physical differences, we can't classify them as a disease.
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As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay
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