Muslims using Western Psychology and Mental Illness: Permissible or lies?

**Tariqa** · 12-27-2008

This thread is for the Muslims who have adapted the science of psychology...

Is this field allowed for Muslims to study and practice???

Many people believe there are nothing but lies in this field that are against Islam..

The study of mental illness is alone a doubtful matter...
People diagnosed with mental illness have no proof that this disease exist...
Mental illness is a theory...there is no scientific proof though they call it a science it has no solid proof....

Is it halal for Muslims to use this study for life purposes??

To answer that question we should use the rule of thumb and ask well why not??

Many people believe that mental illness itself are lies... Though they do not say it is fact and they do say it is their opinion, they still diagnose people with illness and treat them....Some patients have to take medications which could kill them in the same year... In fact more deaths have been associated with mental illness than all US wars combined...Medical malpractice is at a height and staggering amounts concerning this field.. The trail and error has seemed to be non existent because since the field was created there have not been one documented cure in the entire history of the profession....

The numbers show that the odds are against a win....

The part of Mental Illness that is accused of oppression (Haram)

It would not be so bad if it were only a voluntary practice. Unfortunately in many ,if not all, countries that treat for mental illness, they have a program where if a subject is seeming to be too ill he will be involuntarily committed to a hospital and his whole life would be stopped for treatment against his will..If he dies under treatment this would be a murder to many in Islam and thought..

A profession of murder??

How could Muslims allow this indeed.?? How can we force a man to undergo treatment when the proof is nonexistent..

Again there is no proof to prove the existence of mental illness therefore if any one is treated for something he does not have this is a sort of tempering with the laws of allah..If one is accused of anything he should be accused of the rightful crime and nothing more or less... If anything else this is playing with the al hudud and creating lies, slandering, and wrongful accusations, false witness and in the case of mental illness, abuse, torture and/or death..

**noorseeker** · 12-28-2008

Brother what do you mean mental illness is false,never heard that before

**Tariqa** · 12-28-2008

You may have never heard that mental illness is false because people do not like to discuss this matter...
To be fair ahki there is currently no proof to prove that mental illness for mental disorders are real regarding chemical imbalances in what not.. I cannot say as of yet that they are lies and metaphors because there is no proof on both sides.. One side is saying it is true while the other is saying is not.. The only thing side b can do is tell side a to prove it.. Until side a proves it side b has a valid opinion that mental illness is not true because it has no proof....

This is clearly differing from sciences like medical disorders such as cancer where lab test can prove its existence.. The same cannot be said for mental illness... There are no lab tests that confirms its validity even yet and still people are treated for a disorder that cannot be proved or seen.....

**Malaikah** · 12-28-2008

One question. Do you have any training in the area of psychology or science? What makes you so sure that what you are saying is correct?

Also, let's discuss the point that the treatment actually works. What do you say to that?

I know someone who has something similar to bipolar and when she takes treatment she's back to normal in about three days. Otherwise it would stay for a few weeks, even a month.

**Tariqa** · 12-28-2008

Originally Posted by Malaikah

One question. Do you have any training in the area of psychology or science? What makes you so sure that what you are saying is correct?

Also, let's discuss the point that the treatment actually works. What do you say to that?

I know someone who has something similar to bipolar and when she takes treatment she's back to normal in about three days. Otherwise it would stay for a few weeks, even a month.

Actually with all respect to your Friend there is no such thing as a success in treating any of these disorders because technically their is no proof to prove whether it was the treatment that helped the problem or something else... To understand if the treatment actually worked you would first have to understand what science is all about.. In science their is something called a variable, factors, controls and what not..When testing there must be physical proof to indicate that from the trails something was altered or not..

Basically in the case of mental illness there is no physical proof to indicate whether the "chemical imbalance" was corrected or not because the chemical imbalance cannot be found to begin the treatment in the first place..
Therefore there cannot be any physical evidence of a correction hence there cannot be a statement which implies that the treatment was a success.

If you are using the treatment to study a behavior and you would like to know did the drug treat that particular behavior then you may be permitted to state that but in this case, the case of mentally ill patients, they are diagnosed with a physical disorder and are to take a physical medication for treatment..

You may be confused but you cannot say that something has worked until you know what it worked against.. what did the medication treat?? What is mental illness..How can you evaluate a norm of behavior?? How would you ever understand what "normal" is...???

Either way whatever you are evaluating it is wrong to say because of lack of evidence.. Behavior changes responsive to treatment does not mean the treatment works because the treatment could just be a placebo to all.. A placebo means that it treats the problem but not in the way it is believed to treat meaning the patient undergoes false deception lies, or is not completely aware of what is taken place...

Hence we cannot say that any mental illness treatments have worked for the basis on lack of evidence...

**themuffinman** · 12-30-2008

i think mental illnesses do exist. didn't the prophet say the pen is lifted on people who are insane? meaning they have no accountability of the sins and good deeds they do if they are insane?

**Muezzin** · 12-30-2008

Originally Posted by Tariqa

This thread is for the Muslims who have adapted the science of psychology...

Is this field allowed for Muslims to study and practice???

Of course.

Many people believe there are nothing but lies in this field that are against Islam..

Many people believe a lot of things. It doesn't make them correct.

The study of mental illness is alone a doubtful matter...
People diagnosed with mental illness have no proof that this disease exist...

The people diagnosed with a mental illness are not the people you want to ask for proof of their own mental illness. For proof, ask psychiatrists and psychologists.

Mental illness is a theory...there is no scientific proof though they call it a science it has no solid proof....

I'm fighting so hard not to use one of those 'facepalm' pictures floating around the Internet.

Is it halal for Muslims to use this study for life purposes??

Of course. Otherwise there would be not even be medical doctors.

To answer that question we should use the rule of thumb and ask well why not??

Many people believe that mental illness itself are lies... Though they do not say it is fact and they do say it is their opinion, they still diagnose people with illness and treat them....Some patients have to take medications which could kill them in the same year... In fact more deaths have been associated with mental illness than all US wars combined...Medical malpractice is at a height and staggering amounts concerning this field.. The trail and error has seemed to be non existent because since the field was created there have not been one documented cure in the entire history of the profession....

There are many different kinds of mental illness. There is no miracle cure for mental illness as a whole, just as there is no miracle cure for non-mentall illness as a whole.

The part of Mental Illness that is accused of oppression (Haram)

It would not be so bad if it were only a voluntary practice. Unfortunately in many ,if not all, countries that treat for mental illness, they have a program where if a subject is seeming to be too ill he will be involuntarily committed to a hospital and his whole life would be stopped for treatment against his will..If he dies under treatment this would be a murder to many in Islam and thought..

If the mental illness presents a danger to the patient or others, it's for the best.

And I fail to see how a patient dying in a mental institute is a victim of murder, solely by virtue of dying there.

Did that make sense when you wrote it?

A profession of murder??

How could Muslims allow this indeed.?? How can we force a man to undergo treatment when the proof is nonexistent..

Still... fighting... not... to... facepalm...

Again there is no proof to prove the existence of mental illness therefore if any one is treated for something he does not have this is a sort of tempering with the laws of allah..

What?

If one is accused of anything he should be accused of the rightful crime and nothing more or less... If anything else this is playing with the al hudud and creating lies, slandering, and wrongful accusations, false witness and in the case of mental illness, abuse, torture and/or death..

facepalm 1 - Muslims using Western Psychology and Mental Illness: Permissible or lies?

**Far7an** · 12-30-2008

Here is what the ulemah say:

Sh Salman Al Oadah

Question: What is the Islamic ruling of studying Psychology in a western university for the purpose of getting degree and being able to work as a psychiatrist? Someone told me that Psychology as a separate subject does not exist in Islam and therefore should not be delt with as a separate subject.

Answered by Sheikh Salman al-Oadah

The knowledge of psychology is based on experimentation and observation. It can be carried out by both Muslims and non-Muslims. This is similar to any other branch of scientific and medical knowledge. You can study it in an Arab or western country as long as you abide by Islamic Law.

Sh Salih Al Munajjid recommends books for psychology. http://islamqa.com/en/ref/605

**Woodrow** · 12-30-2008

There seems to be a lot of confussion as to just what psychologist and psychiatrists do.

First a psychiatrist is a medical MD and treats mental illness with medications. Most of the Mental disorders listed in the DSM respond well to medical treatment the most common ones, schizophrenia and Bi-polar disorder are clearly the result of hormonal imbalaces. Bi-polar is very easily treated with lithium-carbonate, schizophrenia is a bit more difficult, however the most common and delibitating form of it, paranoia schizophenia responds very well to thorazine and a few other medications.

As a psychologist I was more interested in qualatative and quantitative measurements. Psychology is a field of measurements and testing and not a field of treatment. Although some psychologists do enter into the field of psych-therapy, which seems to be the common view of what a psychologist does.

But, true treatment of mental illness, is a bonafide area of physical medicine. No different than surgery, or dermatology.

**Far7an** · 12-30-2008

I was going to post more statements from scholars about mental illness and how it does occur, however if you go to literally every fatwa site you'll see the shaykh giving their solution to mental illness, surely if they're offering a cure.... they acknowledge its existence?! :confused:

**Tariqa** · 12-30-2008

Please the next person do nto confuse mental illness with insnanity,....mental illness is a new branch of theory while insanity was known in older times...

There is no proof ask a doctor for proof of mental illness.. you will not find it..how can you say disoders such as depression is clearly hormonal when there is no clear proof???

the scholars do not know everything...their are many things the scholars have made rulings on and after much research changed their rulings... that is the thnig abotu fatwas the change with time..with mental ilness allot of scholars probely do not focus or know much about it so they do not make enough rulings.. i can assure you i have done the research..there is no proof to justify any treaments of mental illness. You say that some disorders are responsive to some medications is the same as saying some people in the cold resomnds to heat and some people in the heat resomnds to cool.. this does not prove anything but a behavorial choice, behavior and lifestyle is not biological.. we need facts and not poetry and metaphores..

**Malaikah** · 12-31-2008

Okay, Tariqa. Why don't you provide us with the proof of what you are saying then??

**Woodrow** · 12-31-2008

Originally Posted by Tariqa

Please the next person do nto confuse mental illness with insnanity,....mental illness is a new branch of theory while insanity was known in older times...

There is no proof ask a doctor for proof of mental illness.. you will not find it..how can you say disoders such as depression is clearly hormonal when there is no clear proof???

the scholars do not know everything...their are many things the scholars have made rulings on and after much research changed their rulings... that is the thnig abotu fatwas the change with time..with mental ilness allot of scholars probely do not focus or know much about it so they do not make enough rulings.. i can assure you i have done the research..there is no proof to justify any treaments of mental illness. You say that some disorders are responsive to some medications is the same as saying some people in the cold resomnds to heat and some people in the heat resomnds to cool.. this does not prove anything but a behavorial choice, behavior and lifestyle is not biological.. we need facts and not poetry and metaphores..

Clinical depression is a disorder of the limbic system. The problem is caused by a lack of some neurotransmitters primarily seratonin. It is treated by replacement therapy usually with medications that are percursors of seratonin, The result is the body is able to produce more of it's natural seratonin bringing the level back to a point of normal ranges.

The causes of clinical depression are many usually disease related, it is often an early symptom of other diseases such as diabetes. There does seem to be a strong relationship between clinical depression and disorders of the pancreas also.

Some other causes of depression are low blood pressure, low grade infections, fever, malabsorbtion of food, etc. The final long range cure is to identify the physical cause and treat that. Until that is found, the temporary treatment is the use of anti-depressants that either duplicate seratonin or facilitate the body to produce more.

Other mental disorders are caused by injury, disease, some toxins, dysfucntions of the CNS and other physical ailments.

Insanity is not a psychiatric term, it is a legal term used to define a person's ability to stand trial in a court of law.

There is a division in the types of disorders. Those with a physical basis such as genetics, injury or disease. And there are behavioral disorders and personality disorders. There is disagreement among those in the fields as to which are truly medical disorders and which are behavioral/personality disorders. Behavioral and personality disorders usually do not respond well to medical treatment, except in cases where the goal is to sedate the person sufficiently so they do not pose a danger to themselves or to others. The treatment for those is counseling, Behavior modification, and or psychiatric therapy. There is much debate over what techniques actually work and which simply train the person to hide the disorder. The qualifications to be a therapist varies from locale to locale. In some places to practice as a therapist, no training is required, in other locales the therapist needs to have at least a Ph D and practice under the direction of a medical doctor.

**islamirama** · 12-31-2008

How about some proof and source for all these fatwas you have been posting all over the forum. I like to see a source for every fatwa on every thread you have posted. That is also a rule on this forum, provide source for anything you claim is from Islam.

**Woodrow** · 12-31-2008

Originally Posted by islamirama

How about some proof and source for all these fatwas you have been posting all over the forum. I like to see a source for every fatwa on every thread you have posted. That is also a rule on this forum, provide source for anything you claim is from Islam.

Very true. It seems myself and the mods have gotten a bit lax about enforcing that.

However, in spite of that I am not going to close this thread. Although it would be appreciated if Brother Tariqa did produce a valid fatwa to support his claim.

In the mean time I will continue with my view that Psychiatry is a legitimate field of medicine and psychology is a legitimate field of scientific measuring.

**doorster** · 12-31-2008

Originally Posted by Woodrow

Clinical depression is a disorder of the limbic system. The problem is caused by a lack of some neurotransmitters primarily seratonin. It is treated by replacement therapy usually with medications that are percursors of seratonin, The result is the body is able to produce more of it's natural seratonin bringing the level back to a point of normal ranges.

The causes of clinical depression are many usually disease related, it is often an early symptom of other diseases such as diabetes. There does seem to be a strong relationship between clinical depression and disorders of the pancreas also.

Some other causes of depression are low blood pressure, low grade infections, fever, malabsorbtion of food, etc. The final long range cure is to identify the physical cause and treat that. Until that is found, the temporary treatment is the use of anti-depressants that either duplicate seratonin or facilitate the body to produce more.

Other mental disorders are caused by injury, disease, some toxins, dysfucntions of the CNS and other physical ailments.

Insanity is not a psychiatric term, it is a legal term used to define a person's ability to stand trial in a court of law.

There is a division in the types of disorders. Those with a physical basis such as genetics, injury or disease. And there are behavioral disorders and personality disorders. There is disagreement among those in the fields as to which are truly medical disorders and which are behavioral/personality disorders. Behavioral and personality disorders usually do not respond well to medical treatment, except in cases where the goal is to sedate the person sufficiently so they do not pose a danger to themselves or to others. The treatment for those is counseling, Behavior modification, and or psychiatric therapy. There is much debate over what techniques actually work and which simply train the person to hide the disorder. The qualifications to be a therapist varies from locale to locale. In some places to practice as a therapist, no training is required, in other locales the therapist needs to have at least a Ph D and practice under the direction of a medical doctor.

^^ Salam Alaikum Br. Woodrow

be that as it may but I do not think that this person is interested in facts. seeing from all his spamming, it looks as if he wants to destroy us

according to some of his comments:

we should leave free world and go live under tyranny (e.g. saudi arabia where one can get around 50 lashes per week for failing to help a drug addict member of a Prince's harem or Pakistan where one can be murdered in the night for not calling onself a salafi and now one can also be killed for sending a daughter to school
we should abandon science and medicine (probably in favor of medieval spells and exorcists)

I have also come across another loony toon dude who also says that depressed people are all allies of the devil and are at war with The God. i.e they are only happy while sinning due to satan but then are abandoned by him until the next sin (next dose of "evil" western medicine).

**Woodrow** · 12-31-2008

Originally Posted by doorster

^^ Salam Alaikum Br. Woodrow

be that as it may but I do not think that this person is interested in facts. seeing from all his spamming, it looks as if he wants to destroy us

On this point I disagree with you. I believe he is sincere and it is his intent to bring what he sees as errors to our attention

according to some of his comments:

1)we should leave free world and go live under tyranny (e.g. saudi arabia where one can get around 50 lashes per week for failing to help a drug addict member of a Prince's harem or Pakistan where one can be murdered in the night for not calling onself a salafi and now one can also be killed for sending a daughter to school

I suspect he has never lived in the mid-East. In theory it does seem that some of the mid-East countries are the most Islamic in the world. Sadly I did not find that to be true and the laws are more Western than those of many Western Countries. Although I was not Muslim at the time I lived in the mid-East. I did get some wrong ideas about Islam from the Muslims there. Fortunatly, I did find some pious Muslims in non-Islamic countries that showed me what Islam really is. To be fair I did meet some devout pious Muslims in Makkah, Medinah, Fez, Tehran and a f

2)we should abandon science and medicine (probably in favor of medieval spells and exorcists)

I agree with you, that does seem to be what he is saying I also find that to be the view of some extremist Christian denominations, particulary among the Pentecostals and the Church of Christ denominations.

I have also come across another loony toon dude who also says that depressed people are all allies of the devil and are at war with The God. i.e they are only happy while sinning due to satan but then are abandoned by him until the next sin (next dose of "evil" western medicine).

Many people still do not see mental illness as a treatable disease, they tend to think it is a behavioral choice and the result of immoral behavior. That is like saying people choose to get cholera.

**Tariqa** · 12-31-2008

I apologize if anyone has misunderstood me.. I am not a crack pot nor does anyone hear me issuing fatwas though they are accusing me of issuing fatwas. If you take a look at each of my post, i only bring the problem to the attention of the Muslim so we can discuss. If anyone says anything wrong that is when i combat that because we cannot discuss anything when someone thinks what they are saying is an opinion when it is clearly a fact...

To the miss who would like proof, it seems you do not understand my view.. You see i am the one that denies mental illness as being a real disease because the experts of mental illness all say that there is not enough proof at this time to prove of its existence, and it has been like this for over 150 years since the beginning of the theory, no breakthroughs have been discovered to this day..

Please miss tell me what you would like proof on because you are asking exactly what i am asking.. i would like proof.. I am asking to the person that says clinical depression is caused by such and such to give me a lab test right now from the INTERNET like xrays can see tumors.. bring us all a picture and statistics numbers that prove what you say is true..
You see miss i cannot prove mental illness is not true because the doctors cannot prove that it is true.. confusing is it?? Until they do not prove it i stand corrected...

Again to the admin who is saying or is stating that depression is cause by chemical imbalances i say prove it.... You forget mister that depression is not a law.. in every case you will not find anything wrong with the limbic system. not in a one or 2 patients but in millions of patients you will not find anything wrong with their limbic system and they will still be diagnosed with depression.. so how do you explain the patients that have been diagnoses with depression and their blood test, cat scans, mri's, and x rays all test negative for any disorder biological?? And statistics make this number allot higher so i assure you it is no coninceidence...

I see you cannot prove that what you have said is a fact so in Islam you are lying.. Any Muslim that makes a statement and passes that statement of as a factual statement even if it is true and does not have the proof nor does he know himself, he is a liar... I'm sorry mister but even the doctors do not claim to know what cause depression or any disorder they only have suspicions or hypothesis, good guess, studies and predictions, but no real proof..

So mister next time you explain to us what cause depression you should remember to say first that this is what you think or believe or you should say that scientist believe or studies indicate but never should a Muslim make a statement and act as if it is true and have no proof to back this statement up subanallah...may Allah forgive the weak actions of the Muslims indeed..

Again for those that want proof please explain to me what proof you are looking for because i am not here making anything up or making any fatwas...actually you never hear me make any rulings at all in this thread i do not think so if you accuse me of something i do not do may the angle invoke the wrath of Allah upon those accusing me of what is not true and clear my name ameen...

For those statements about the middle east.. i do not need to know what goes on over there.. it is a shame that some of you Muslims think that if a Muslim drink more alcohol overseas in a Muslim land and the non Muslims do not, you all would say that the Muslim land is worst then the non Muslim land?? subannallah does not Allah say that the best non Muslims is always worst then the worst Muslim.. no matter how many sins go on overseas they are our brothers in Islam and never should we degrade them so much as to put them below in the eyes of Allah under a filthy kafir for anything and raise the non Muslim who does not even believe in a god over the Muslims that at least knows who his creator is..may Allah also forgive those statements indeed...

again i do not think all medication is bad.. remember black seed was recommend for Muslims to take.. if black seed is permissible then how can i be against medications.. however i think society has became so intoxicated with the prescribing and using of drugs i think Allah will punish many nations for their medical habits as it has become extremely sick the way Nations are wasting and spending on medical drugs,which if pateints are not commiting mass suicide upon deaths but are commiting mass murders giving this poision to many loved ones or hated ones indeed it is disgusting .. mental illness is proof in itself that the drugging of societies have become so widespread and common that one does not even need proof anymore to diagnoses a person with a disorder and immediately get him so high out of his mind, he would never remember any disorders he might have been accused of having in the first place....what a true shame it is indeed.

Until there comes to the table real solid proof of mental illness we may continue to think it is nothing more than a pseudoscience.. the statistic are staggering and so many people are dying from misdiagnosing its certified enough to be called a crises at this point ... this is not a matter of choice.. our peoples and humanities peoples lives are at stake here if we do not stand up against this inhumane treatment to mankind at once.. may Allah protect us from the evils of this modern world and from the false indoctrination that has fell upon the minds of the communities in society..

**wth1257** · 12-31-2008

Originally Posted by Tariqa

You may have never heard that mental illness is false because people do not like to discuss this matter...
To be fair ahki there is currently no proof to prove that mental illness for mental disorders are real regarding chemical imbalances in what not.. I cannot say as of yet that they are lies and metaphors because there is no proof on both sides.. One side is saying it is true while the other is saying is not.. The only thing side b can do is tell side a to prove it.. Until side a proves it side b has a valid opinion that mental illness is not true because it has no proof....

This is clearly differing from sciences like medical disorders such as cancer where lab test can prove its existence.. The same cannot be said for mental illness... There are no lab tests that confirms its validity even yet and still people are treated for a disorder that cannot be proved or seen.....

And I can say that you are incorrect and need to read up on the subject a bit.

**Tariqa** · 12-31-2008

Tell me where i am incorrect at.. i have done som much research i think it is best that even i do not do anymore research.. i have studied so many places.. if i am incorrect then you prove me wrong since it is you that is accusing me of injustice and if you can find no proof then may you ask allah for complete forgviness for your disgusting accusations and your utter lack of knowledge...