Can life be created in a lab?

**Hamayun** · 01-28-2009

I am not referring to cloning or reproduction etc. I mean in the literal sense.

I have 2 questions to which I know the answers through Islam but I would like to know the Scientific point of view too:

1. Can life be created from scratch in a lab?

They say life was formed because the conditions were perfect. Is it possible to create living organisms in a lab without the aid of any building blocks from existing living creatures?

2. What makes a living thing alive? Why can a dead cell not be brought back to life even though it is structurally intact? What is life?

Just a couple of interesting questions that occurred to me recently

Salam

**Trumble** · 01-28-2009

The scientific answer to 1. is either "we don't know" or "not yet". The same applies to bringing a dead cell back to life. Personally I think a far more interesting question is "if we could, should we?"

The answer to 2. depends on how you define 'life'. That one's still where it's been since Plato, with the philosophers. There is no formal scientific definition of 'life', or 'alive' that I'm aware of, although some fields have adopted their own out of necessity, medicine being the obvious example. You might define life in terms of purely physical properties, such as a collection of certain physical and chemical processes. You might define it in purely functional terms, or purely behavioral terms. You can think of possible criteria for the latter as well as I can; the ability to reproduce being an obvious one, but even that has fairly obvious problems as a defining catagory . Or you might define it in terms of possession of a postulated non-material element, or animating principal, such as one of several conceptions of the 'soul'. You might find Aristotle's views on that worth researching if only because they were adopted by Aquinas and other Christian theologians.. maybe by Islam too? I don't know.

**Ali_Cena** · 01-28-2009

lol salaam to hamayun
and peace to trumble
trumble i have noticed that even on the thread of questions to atheist, you athiest or agnostics are always coming out with i like to call ******* called "i/we dont know" yet you ******* know full well that thier is no God hence "atheist" you know what if you dont know or dont know yet why are you athiest its like you seem to have know everything and full knowledge of all the answers to why you are here, and decided to be a athiest>>>>athiest buddhist _________________but you still "dont know" dont know yet.........you know what you guys make me berserker.

and never tell me "not yet" THATS JUST AN EXCUSE YOU AROGANT ATHEIST AGNOSTS USE WHEN THE TIDES ARE AGAINST YOU>>"I DONT KNOW" OR " WE DONT KNOW YET".

to answers hamayuns questions. put it this way, energy cannot be created or distroyed, becuase Allah the supreme ruler of the universe. has created all the matter, in a way that you cannot create or destroy Allah's energy or creation. simply becuase it is Allah's creation he will decied whether to creat or destroy, now NO ONE CAN CREATE SOMETHING FROM NOTHING>>e.i without the will of Allah swt, so when you say from scratch well by cloning, well you are not creating anything, becuase you are using matter energy that was thier from the begging.

you get my drift????? we are not creators>>>>>>understand. you can never creat something from scratch!!!!!!!! you use not creat you use stuff to make stuff....

sorry for my wasteing space on my reply.
peace out
wasalaam aleykum

**Hamayun** · 01-28-2009

Interesting replies indeed!

you get my drift????? we are not creators>>>>>>understand. you can never creat something from scratch!!!!!!!! you use not creat you use stuff to make stuff...

lol I get your drift for sure brother

Well said.

On the subject of drifting here is a pictue of me from the 2008 British Drift Championship

62a8c295 1 - Can life be created in a lab?

**Ali_Cena** · 01-28-2009

salaam brother
lol brother hamayun, you never fail to entertain me lol you joker.
anyaways would like to see more replies to this thread....
Peace brother hamayun

**- Qatada -** · 01-28-2009

Originally Posted by Hamayun

1. Can life be created from scratch in a lab?

No, It probably ever won't.

{ O men! Here is a parable set forth! So Listen to it! Those on whom besides Allah ye call willnever create a fly even if they all combine together for this purpose! And if the fly should snatch away a thing from them they would have no power to release it from the fly: feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition! } (Al-Hajj 73).

They say life was formed because the conditions were perfect. Is it possible to create living organisms in a lab without the aid of any building blocks from existing living creatures?

Right now, its not possible. The main part that is hard for the scientists to produce is the DNA and RNA of the cell [this is extremely important since its like the brain to the body.]

The DNA is so complicated that it can't have come into existence by chance (each cell contains all the bodies genetic makeup within it);

The Argument from Information The DNA of a bacterium contains as much information as a 1000 page book [1]

There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter [2]

We do not understand even the general features of the origin of the genetic code . . . [It] is the most baffling aspect of the problem of the origins of life and a major conceptual or experimental breakthrough may be needed before we can make any substantial progress. [3]

Evolutionist Douglas R. Hofstadter of Indiana University, states his despair in the face of this question: \"How did the Genetic Code, along with the mechanisms for its translation (ribosomes and RNA molecules), originate?\" For the moment, we will have to content ourselves with a sense of wonder and awe, rather than with an answer. [4]

1) Lee M. Spetner, Not by Chance, 1998, p. 30

2) Werner Gitt. In the Beginning Was Information. CLV, Bielefeld, Germany, p. 107, 141

3) Orgel, Leslie E, \"Darwinism at the Very Beginning of Life,\" New Scientist, vol.94 (April 15, 1982), p.151

4) Douglas R. Hofstadter, Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid, New York: Vintage Books, 1980, p. 548

read more here on the topic;

http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/a....html#post5011

http://www.slideshare.net/speed2kx/3...s-presentation

2. What makes a living thing alive? Why can a dead cell not be brought back to life even though it is structurally intact? What is life?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life

**Trumble** · 01-28-2009

Originally Posted by Ali_Cena

and never tell me "not yet" THATS JUST AN EXCUSE YOU AROGANT ATHEIST AGNOSTS USE WHEN THE TIDES ARE AGAINST YOU>>"I DONT KNOW" OR " WE DONT KNOW YET".

The "I don't know" I can't help. You might be a fountain of infinite knowledge (although somehow I doubt it) but I'm not. As to "we don't know yet", actually it's a perfectly reasonable, and satisfactory, answer. If you wasn't you might be able to come up with a reasoned argument rather than a rant. I'm sorry it distresses you.. maybe because it makes you actually have to think?

Let me explain it this way. Imagine stepping back in time a hundred fifty years or so and asking a scientist or engineer (or indeed anybody else) any of the following questions;

Will we ever be able to build a flying machine?

Will we ever be able to travel at more than 100kph?

Will a man ever walk on the moon?

Maybe he would say "no, impossible! Only God could do that!". Or maybe he would say "not just now, but maybe in the future". Who would be right?

Nothing has changed. We don't know far more than we do.. there's an infinity of stuff to learn out there.

**Gator** · 01-28-2009

Hey Hama,

1. Yes, I think it is possible and someday it may happen (YIKES!!!!!).
2. a) My guess is the operation chemical processes. b) Like a dead amoeba? Don't know. c) short.

Thanks.

**Ali_Cena** · 01-28-2009

Originally Posted by Trumble

Maybe he would say "no, impossible! Only God could do that!". Or maybe he would say "not just now, but maybe in the future". Who would be right?

trumble i am going to copy past something form the other thread which gator got me thinking, and actually none of your nonsense makes me think about anything rather than thinking about how silly "you lot" are........

ok here goes well when you say Only God could do that,,, well yea only God can do that, now what you are trying to say is that "not just now maybe in the future" you are basically saying if you can explain if then God did not do it, well actually you are just explain how that happened throuhg God's will,

dont be trying to say that if you can explain something then God did not do it, it happened it self>>>> silly? or what?

""""hi gator, one thing which i think atheist misunderstand sooooooooooooooooooooo muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch is that
they think that if it can be explained e.i how the crystal was formed, they it leave God out, why???? why do all atheist think like that, i mean if you can explain how it was formed, you are basically explain how God made it, by the chemical process. When someone says God did it, then the scientist can say how, say evolution or big bang.

so your answer is this by God's will the chemical process lead to the forming of chemistry,

one last thing please gator, if you understood what i meant by my first paragraph tell me, i want to know if that is how you think>>>if it can be explaind then God did not do it, iis this how you think??>>being atheist anyway.

cant you just think this is how God made it, by the chemical biological process or whatever.... comment,
Peace brother gator"""""">>>>>>all taken from other post, with same argument,

basically dont try and say if you can explain something how that happened. then God did not do it, or it had nothing to do with Allah...

and by the way you have laid out your reply sounds like you are a bit annoyed hummm

maybe my post made you think a little???? huh trumbz
peace out

**Trumble** · 01-28-2009

Originally Posted by Ali_Cena

ok here goes well when you say Only God could do that,,, well yea only God can do that, now what you are trying to say is that "not just now maybe in the future" you are basically saying if you can explain if then God did not do it, well actually you are just explain how that happened throuhg God's will ?

You may be doing that but I'm not. I don't believe there is a God so how can I be attributing anything to 'God's will'? More to the point, I do not believe there is anything about those discoveries that needs attributing; they were made by people, through effort, hard work and a desire to understand the universe around them.

they think that if it can be explained e.i how the crystal was formed, they it leave God out, why????

Because there is no reason to include God! There is no gap to be filled, or at least no gap that cannot be potentially filled without introducing God and his Will.

why do all atheist think like that, i mean if you can explain how it was formed, you are basically explain how God made it, by the chemical process.

See above. Atheists are not trying exclude a God they believe exists; they simply do not believe a God is necessary and hence, in the absence of any other evidence for His existence, do not believe He actually exists. You may think that 'silly', as you are quite entitled to do.. but do not be surprised when atheists think the same thing about your views.

**Wyatt** · 01-28-2009

Originally Posted by Ali_Cena

they think that if it can be explained e.i how the crystal was formed, they it leave God out, why???? why do all atheist think like that, i mean if you can explain how it was formed, you are basically explain how God made it, by the chemical process.

one last thing please gator, if you understood what i meant by my first paragraph tell me, i want to know if that is how you think>>>if it can be explaind then God did not do it, iis this how you think??>>being atheist anyway.

cant you just think this is how God made it, by the chemical biological process or whatever....

basically dont try and say if you can explain something how that happened. then God did not do it, or it had nothing to do with Allah...

and by the way you have laid out your reply sounds like you are a bit annoyed hummm

maybe my post made you think a little????
peace out

Dude.. When atheists or scientists look for an explanation for things, they are not leaving God out. They could say that God did it or they could just not mention it. Nowhere have I seen the point by an atheist that because it can be explained, God did not do it. Religious people often make up these twisted stereotypes just like "atheists have no moral ruling, so they're wild people!" which is NOT true whatsoever. Often, the God factor is just ruled out because when they are trying to explain something, it is not directly connected with religion, but to advance the scientific knowledge. Because there's no evidence or reasoning to include God in the explanation doesn't mean that one is saying he didn't do it. You should at least try to think of it rationally.

and never tell me "not yet" THATS JUST AN EXCUSE YOU AROGANT ATHEIST AGNOSTS USE WHEN THE TIDES ARE AGAINST YOU>>"I DONT KNOW" OR " WE DONT KNOW YET".

Apparently you cannot figure out why the target of this comment would be annoyed? Well, the "I don't know" excuse is a rational one. I would say for a religious person to just look at something and say GOD DID IT! Don't question it; you don't need to know! isn't giving your god any credit or appreciation. The "I don't know" is keeping scientists from just leaving something go with a supernatural explanation. It doesn't seem irrational just saying Allah does it because you truly believe that while others may not. The "I don't know" is encompassing all religious and atheist people because it's only based on factual information that has been recorded.

Of course, you seem like one of those people going around in these threads telling atheists they're going to burn in hell for even pondering cloning or superficial creation of whatever 'life' really is. So, you will probably never agree that when it comes to scientific studies which are factual, something as unsturdy and diverse as supernaturality should be left out.

(I am not dissing the Islamic religion, nor any others. I am not saying that they are false or made-up. I am saying that because there's no direct evidence that does not require a leap of faith (such as "The Qur'an is an obvious gift from Allah!"), it should be left out of any collection of proven evidence.)

I define my "unsturdy" comment by that there are terrorists, sects, and religious conflicts everywhere for every religion and that it will never EVER be agreed upon, one religion. But, "sturdy" would be that no one questions whether grass reflects green light or not. :X

I hope I have made my points clear, and if any offence was taken, there was none intended at all. I'm just tired of people arguing with scientists or atheists about this stuff in threads started by a muslim in the first place. If you want to talk about it, talk about it. If you're going to argue with """"""",,,,,, too many '''>>>>> stereotypes :::: and ,,,,"""" punctuation ....marks, then it's not good for either side and no progress will be made.!!!!!!!!

**Ali_Cena** · 01-29-2009

and there again "thinking they know everything...yet they dont">>"there is no reason to include God">>>>>>>I mean how do you know? i though you didnt know, or not yet?????

Originally Posted by Trumble

You may be doing that but I'm not. I don't believe there is a God so how can I be attributing anything to 'God's will'? More to the point, I do not believe there is anything about those discoveries that needs attributing; they were made by people, through effort, hard work and a desire to understand the universe around them.

Because there is no reason to include God! There is no gap to be filled, or at least no gap that cannot be potentially filled without introducing God and his Will.

See above. Atheists are not trying exclude a God they believe exists; they simply do not believe a God is necessary and hence, in the absence of any other evidence for His existence, do not believe He actually exists. You may think that 'silly', as you are quite entitled to do.. but do not be surprised when atheists think the same thing about your views.

your reply itself is selfcontradictory first you say thier is no reason to include God then you say atheist's are not trying to exclude God. obviously, they are i mean they are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>atheist<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
when you are atheist you sure are excluding God>>>are you not?

Originally Posted by Podarok

Dude.. When atheists or scientists look for an explanation for things, they are not leaving God out.

now you listen here, you are telling me when an ATHEIST does something he is not leaving God out>>>>>??>?>?>?>?> why he he be atheist then????????????????????????? shutted up????

you just seen that trumble is saying stuff about there is no reason to put God in, so he is excluding God is he not?

to trumbles reply, all that ******* that you just said was your own opinoin dont start stating it as fact>>>>"ohh there is no reason to include God" okay. thats merely your own opinoin and your own philosophy which half the time is bull****>>>take from skyes word directly....

there is a reason to include God in my opinon>>>>>now thats how you should say your opinoin, and not try and state it as a fact.... ok

Peace out

**crayon** · 01-29-2009

Question- Is it known what "life" consists of?

**Ali_Cena** · 01-29-2009

Originally Posted by Trumble

but do not be surprised when atheists think the same thing about your views.

btw thanks but no thanks for the "advice" lecture thingy you just gave me... beucase frankly i am not...

and trumble on a personal tone,,your recent replys to my posts, seem to me that you think i am suprised or worried or any of that crap...remember telling me about something like "you are getting frustrated becuase my (trumbles) reply makes me (ali) think"

or "dont be suprised" frankly dont talk ******* with me ok i aint no kid, you understand that?

**Trumble** · 01-29-2009

Originally Posted by Ali_Cena

your reply itself is selfcontradictory first you say thier is no reason to include God then you say atheist's are not trying to exclude God. obviously, they are i mean they are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>atheist<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
when you are atheist you sure are excluding God>>>are you not?

I said "are not trying exclude a God they believe exists".

all that ******* that you just said was your own opinoin dont start stating it as fact>>>>"ohh there is no reason to include God" okay. thats merely your own opinoin and your own philosophy which half the time is bull****

Of course it's my opinion. 90% of everything that gets posted on this forum is opinion. I don't recall my stating anything as being a 'fact', and neither do I see a need to precede every sentence I type with "in my opinion", or words to that effect.

or "dont be suprised" frankly dont talk ******* with me ok i aint no kid, you understand that?

If you say so. Actually, while I can be patronizing on occasion, there is nothing remotely patronizing about that sentence.

Originally Posted by crayon

Question- Is it known what "life" consists of?

I tried to answer that in my first post. If there is a particular 'Islamic' answer to the question, I'd be very interested to see it too.

**Hamayun** · 01-29-2009

Let's put the handbags away please

Seems like another dead end. We see no sense in the Atheist's beliefs and they see no sense in our's.

Seems like all these threads have one conclusion:

The Atheists are oblivious to all the signs of the creator that surround them everyday and the Muslims can't make them see the signs no matter how hard they try.

I guess there comes a point when you say.. To you be your Way, and to me mine. Quran: 109:6

**Gator** · 01-30-2009

This is basically how I see these kind of debates. A little story I've posted before.

It’s the dawn of human history (not assuming YEC). Two cavemen are standing outside their caves. One believes that only natural forces control the universe and the other believes a deity does. Unfortunately both were named Thag, so I’m going call one Atheist Thag (Athag) and Theist Thag (Tthag). As they stand there, a lightening bolt cracks through the sky, striking the tallest tree in the forest.

Athag: Whoa! Did you see that!

Tthag: Wow! God is amazing!

Athag: Here we go. Why do you think god caused that?

Tthag: Well, I believe God causes lightening. It is so unlike anything else and we have no explanation so it has to be from a God.

Athag: Why does it have to be a god? Couldn’t it come from some natural phenomenon?

Tthag: Do you have an explanation for it?

Athag: Well, it could be some shifting when some unknown power source becomes unbalanced.

Tthag: Puh-lease, that is just a lame theory. Do you have a solid explanation or not.

Athag: A one hundred percent sure fire complete explanation…..no.

Tthag: Ah ha! You admit it.

Athag: But do you remember what our grandfathers used to tell us about fire. They used to say it only came from God.

Tthag: Yeah, I do. They used to believe it was delivered by only lightening. And when they needed it there was only one way to get it. Sacrifice a virgin to produce lightening, which would strike a tree and bring fire.

Athag: Well, my Mom discovered you could make fire by rubbing sticks a certain way.

Tthag: Yeah, my grandfather says he had never seen a woman try to break out of the wooden sacrificial pen as hard as she did. Wasn’t that nine months before you were born?

Athag: Yes, moving on. But don’t you see that what people once thought was only from God was actually something they could do because it was a natural phenomenon?

Tthag: Nice try, heretic, but that was then, this is now. What tree did it hit?

Athag: That tree there. The tallest one.

Tthag: That’s right smart guy, the tallest one. There must be thousands of trees in the forest and the lightening just happen to hit the tallest tree. Do you know the odds of that happening!? In fact, have you ever noticed that it almost always hits the tallest tree. The odds are incalculable! Can you explain that!

Athag: Well no not in exceedingly technical detail.

Tthag: Well thank you for proving my point. Don’t you think that in our advanced age we would know this stuff by now. Think of it. In the last two generations we’ve discovered how to make fire and the wheel! And even with all our amazing and complex advances, no one understands where lightening comes from. Ergo God. Lightening is just one example, all you have to do is look around to see evidence of God. Its right their in front of your eyes.

Athag: uhg.

bye

**Ali_Cena** · 01-30-2009

not a good story as it is flawed.....if you can prove something that does not mean that God did not do it by his will. so bascailly that lightning was caused by God's Will, and if you can epxlain how it happened (chemistry Physics) you are just saying how God performed it.
Peace

**Snowflake** · 01-30-2009

If I remember right,I'm sure I saw a program in which scientists were using all the elements necessary to create life and all they ended up with was a bit of protein. That's no where near to creating life. That won't happen.

**czgibson** · 01-30-2009

Greetings,

Originally Posted by Ali_Cena

not a good story as it is flawed.....if you can prove something that does not mean that God did not do it by his will. so bascailly that lightning was caused by God's Will, and if you can epxlain how it happened (chemistry Physics) you are just saying how God performed it.
Peace

I'm sure you can see how you've just added god into the explanation.

Scientific explanations of the causes of lightning work perfectly well without any need to introduce god to the matter. That is different from scientists ignoring god.

Peace