In response to Hawking's new stated position on God

**IAmZamzam** · 09-02-2010

I ordinarily don’t do this. Through gradual tapering I’ve more or less stopped responding to atheists altogether, at least in forums or other places where there’s an immediate and direct back-and-forth. (This is why I may well never write another “Atheistic Chestnuts Refuted” article, for instance.) There are two reasons. First, because most of the atheists you’ll talk to respond to your arguments with nothing more than talk that is little different from the insults of an elementary schooler, and their behavior otherwise is no less immature or appalling. They even use directly childish idioms and reference points, each more puerile and needlessly obnoxious than the last. (For instance, take their cliché analogies to God: Santa Claus, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, invisible pink unicorns...stop and think for a minute how odd it is to hear this coming from the mouths of grown-ups.) Some of them try to rationalize away their constantly insulting way of speaking by saying that humor helps to open the mind or that anyone who believes the “silly” things we do deserves to be mocked ruthlessly (apparently their sense of justice is no more advanced beyond the fifth grade than their sense of humor); others make no apologies but still get just as defensive anyway when you label their horrible behavior for what it is. I’m not saying that there aren’t civil atheists out there: probably there’s a lot of them, and years ago I was close friends with one. But the more vocal ones almost always seem to be the ones who mock and deride instead of reason: this trait reaches far beyond the ubiquitous forum trolls who exist among people of every stripe and goes all the way into many if not most of their most esteemed, “professional” scholars.

The second reason is that you can’t win with these sorts anyway since they’re constantly shifting their ground or fortifying themselves with catch-22’s. The modern atheistic intellectual zeitgeist is little more than a mass of self-contradictory double standards which leave no conceivable means for even a theoretical possibility to slip in from any quarter of anything making the holders of these standards change their minds. If one or two extraordinary events happen then the skeptics say that of course that doesn’t indicate anything because it’s obviously a fluke instead of a sign or divine intervention because after all, it’s not like such unlikely things happen all the time; if they do end up happening all the time then these people say that of course it doesn’t mean anything because it’s obviously just the statistical effect called clustering: an epidemic of extraordinary things has to happen to someone eventually. A lot of these skeptics walk around saying, “I’ll believe it when I see it,” yet if they do see something themselves they pass it off as a hallucination or some other sort of phantasm or illusion. They complain (rightly, perhaps) of atheists always being depicted, in fiction and even in real life, as being merely prejudiced by some emotional or psychological impetus like a personal trauma or something, but at the same time they go around talking about religious faith like it is automatically and inherently a purely emotional or psychological phenomenon, or even a mental illness. Some of these atheists (many of them the same people who on other occasions demand miracles as proof) claim that if something were to break the laws of physics then that would just necessitate a redefinition of those laws—again, leaving no room for any persuasion that there was divine intervention. Something in reality that doesn’t fit your worldview? Just patch it up by redefining a word.

Most egregiously of all, they criticize creationist “science” (again, rightly) of bringing the subject of the supernatural into science when by definition science is the study of the natural world only and therefore it’s like mixing oil and water, but then many of these same people also say that they disbelieve in God because there is no scientific evidence for Him. It’s no use pointing out to them that if scientific proof of the supernatural is impossible then so is scientific disproof of the supernatural, or that it is unreasonable and irrational in the first place to say that you disbelieve in God, a supernatural Being and therefore something that wouldn’t and couldn’t yield scientific evidence of His existence even if He did exist, because there is no scientific evidence for His existence. Oh, they’ll get the self-refuting and mind-closing discrepancy involved but somehow they still won’t get what’s wrong with holding to it. Do you see my predicament now? How are you to argue with a man who insists that something can’t be in the next room behind a locked door because his methods of studying this room have disclosed no reason to think that the object is here in it, even though he very well knows this is not where the object could possibly be if it exists, and he doesn’t care (or even takes pride) in how beside the point his reasoning is? And that’s not even close to the worst thing you have to deal with when trying to reason with these folks. It’s difficult and seemingly pointless to go on—in person, at any rate.

Every now and then, though, I come across a piece of anti-theism propaganda that is so very asinine, unoriginal, and nigh unreadable behind the words FALLACY being written all over it a thousand times in giant bold letters—and yet so likely to be talked about endlessly--that I know a refutation seems necessary and even with my ordinary distaste for such things I can hardly resist anyway. Such a piece is Stephen Hawking’s recent cant about God having no role in the universe. This is one of those articles that is so drenched in illogic that it seems necessary to go through it bit by bit:

STEPHEN HAWKING: GOD HAS NO ROLE IN UNIVERSE, by Theunis Bates

LONDON (Sept. 2)—Entering the ongoing debate between faith and science, renowned British scientist Stephen Hawking claims that modern physics has now proved that God played no role in the creation of the universe.

In a new book—“The Grand Design,” co-written with American physicist Leonard Mlodinow—the theoretical physicist sets out to demolish Sir Isaac Newton’s claim that an "intelligent and powerful Being" must have shaped the universe, which he believed could not have emerged from chaos. Hawking and Mlodinow rule out the possibility of divine intervention, saying that new theories have made the idea of a supernatural creator redundant.

I refer you to what I said above. Science, the study of nature, could no more prove anything about supernature one way or the other than linguistics could prove a mathematical formula. I suppose the idea is that nauseatingly old “God of the Gaps” nonsense, which posits that the real purpose of theism is to explain things that science has not “yet” explained. I’ve always had two serious problems with this theory. First, there’s the absurd literalism and historical snobbery involved with the implications and typical explanations or supports of the idea. Second, science has, in the end, not explained diddly squat as a replacement for how nature works as opposed to divine agencies or whatever. All science has done is put the words "the forces of nature" in as a placeholder and pretend that it already is what it is a placeholder for, and for that matter that these words even have a definition in the first place—or at least one that’s specific, coherent, articulate, and meaningful enough to have any practical value whatsoever so that it really makes any difference whether the definition is there or not. The concept of “the forces of nature” is a non-explanation—indeed, it’s really a non-concept. Descriptions are not the same thing as explanations. Saying the word “force” does not supply any new information. It doesn’t even communicate anything. Science can describe, to some degree, what gravity or electromagnetism does, but not what it is, or what causes it. The laws of the universe are just patterns of consistent behavior for which science has no actual explanation whatsoever, just semantics masquerading as explanations. These people notice a common type of occurrence, affix a label to it, and then say, “There, now the occurrence is explained.” Well, maybe they don’t go so far as to put it directly into words like that: one wouldn’t want to openly reveal the malarkey for what it is and force oneself to face the reality of one’s ignorance and, worse, one’s denial.

Not to mention that even if a fact does render something redundant, that is not the same as rendering it untrue. Or that these “forces of nature” themselves form an arabesque of pattern and organization to begin with which in every other instance is an evident mark of design. We are a colony of microscopic creatures living in one isolated corner of a vast Persian rug, and once we’ve seen enough of our corner to notice some patterns in the rug which form the basis and structure that our little “world” stands on, a few of us come up with names for these patterns, pretend the names are themselves existential and causal accounts, and then, most puzzlingly of all, use these names as evidence that we must not be on a woven thing of any sort. Because consistency is a sign of lack of design, apparently. At least when you give it a name which allows people to forget that you’re not talking about anything in the first place more specific and explanatory than things behaving consistently in certain ways. Such is “the forces of nature”.

But wait, if we read on then we see that Mr. Hawking isn’t saying that: no, it’s worse. He’s saying that not only was there no weaver, the rug wove itself:

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing," the pair write, in an extract published in today's London Times. "Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going."

Except that there must have been something to light the paper with, and something to have ignited it and set it to the paper. It seems ridiculous that I should actually have to explain that and why things can’t create themselves, let alone out of nothing, but all right. For one thing, something has to exist before it can perform any action or function such as creation. And if it already exists to begin with, that means it’s already been created, and furthermore...oh, enough of this. Like I said, it shouldn’t bear explaining. (Additionally, even if it were not necessary to invoke God, that would not mean that He’s not there. “Necessary” and “real” are two very different concepts, and thus to say that an absence of necessity indicates an absence of reality is to speak in non-sequiturs.)

"The Grand Design," which goes on sale next week, is a significant shift away from Hawking's previous comments on the divine. In his 1988 best-seller, “A Brief History of Time,” he suggested that it was possible to believe in the concept of God as creator and also hold a scientific view of the universe. "If we do discover a complete theory...of why it is that we and the universe exist...it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason—for then we would know the mind of God," he wrote.

And in a 2007 interview, he appeared to portray himself as an agnostic. "I believe the universe is governed by the laws of science," he told the BBC. "The laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws."

The “mind of God” statement is open to various possible interpretations. Indeed, many people have suspected Hawking of being a flat-out atheist all along, who didn’t want to admit to it because it would mean a drop in book sales or reputation. He has been maybe a little vague and evasive on the subject, and I do seem to remember reading at infidels.org or somewhere a few years back, in some article about how more atheistic celebrities should proudly proclaim their atheism rather than keep it a secret, that...I can’t remember the author’s name for the life of me, but whoever it was put months of “tremendous pressure” (i.e. obnoxious poking, prying and pestering instead of letting the poor man have his right to privacy) on Hawking until finally his secretary said, “When Mr. Hawking says ‘God’ he is referring to the forces of nature.” I don’t know if that’s true or not—it was only secondhand information from a secretary who may have just been trying to shut that badgering fellow up—but in any case, whatever Hawking believed Bates should not just declare a flip-flop in Hawking’s position on theism when his previous position was not at all clear and he himself has not said anything about changing his mind.

Hawking now argues that Newton's assertion that the laws of nature cannot alone explain the existence of life and the universe started to fall apart in 1992, when astronomers discovered the first extrasolar planets (planets beyond our own solar system) orbiting other sunlike stars.

"That makes the coincidences of our planetary conditions—the single Sun, the lucky combination of Earth-Sun distance and solar mass, far less remarkable, and far less compelling evidence that the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings," he writes.

“Just to please us”?! I’ll be generous and assume that was a silly little careless poor choice of words. As for the rest, it’s all that same endlessly repeated line about how modern knowledge of science somehow means less evidence of teleology because the individual (and usually, mostly abandoned per se) straw man argument is treated or implied as standing for all teleological thought. Usually this is done by saying that the theory of evolution itself has disproven the teleological position; now Hawking is speaking as though the likelihood of life on other planets has, and in mere reference to the ancient words of Isaac Newton. This makes Hawking no better than the creationists who attack selected, oversimplified statements written by Darwin himself as if that could refute the entire theory of evolution. I have already discussed above why the “forces of nature” are more likely to be signs of design than of undesign, and I have discussed it further, with refutations of the inevitable counter-arguments, in the other thread where I gave the excerpt from my own book in progress. If—pardon me, when—I must explain it all over again, it should be in another thread still, because to go into it here would be prolix and slightly off topic.

Hawking believes that other universes, as well as other solar systems, are also likely to exist. But if God's purpose was to create mankind, he wonders, why would He make these redundant and out-of-reach worlds?

If that doesn’t make you wonder why even the most intelligent nontheists in the world cannot formulate intelligent arguments, I don’t know what will. Apparently Hawking is one of those nontheists who automatically equate belief in God with belief that God made the world only to make humans, or mainly to make humans. Another straw man, though not at all of an uncommon stripe: nontheistic literature is replete with attacks on theism itself by way of attacking individual, select beliefs of certain groups of theists. Lots of theists do not believe that God made the world just to make mankind: indeed, the notion is explicitly denied in the Koran, which was written in the Dark Ages: “The creation of the heavens and the earth is certainly greater than the creation of humans, though most humans don’t know it.” (Surah 40, verse 57) This is one of the dangers of ignorance and stereotype: they strike even the smartest people, making them think such manifest malarkey as that “X existing in the first place=X having certain motives” is a necessary truth that is so obvious as not even to be considered. Heck, God’s role as creator and designer doesn’t even indicate that any viewpoint about His motives at all, religious or unorthodox, is necessarily correct.

Second of all, what makes other worlds redundant? The Koran, again, stated that there are many earths (surah 65, verse 12). Even if we are alone out there, the vast size of the universe beyond us—which we know we can only barely begin to detect, the detectable parts alone being unimaginably cyclopean—is anything but redundant: it just goes to show how us how great and inconceivable its Creator would be. There is nothing redundant about a master who needs nothing yet who still creates people out of the kindness of His heart coming up with a few more servants: if anything, it stands to reason. And what the heck could the worlds being out of reach of each other (if they even are, for a more technologically advanced and long-lived species than our own) have to do with it?? There may be another colony of microscopic organisms living farther away from us here on this great Persian rug than we can ever hope to reach, but that doesn’t change the fact of the arabesque in the rug itself. And besides, it’s not like the existence of intelligent life on other planets is even proven in the least yet, though Hawking seems to be taking the matter purely for granted.

Richard Dawkins, an evolutionary biologist and high-profile atheist...

Okay, stop right there. Dawkins may be high-profile in the literal sense of being famous, but only in that sense. The implication here seems to be that he is a respected member of the intellectual community and yet I don’t even know of very many atheists who take him seriously. I think very little of him myself.

...welcomed the book, telling the Times that Hawking had developed a theory of Darwinism for the entirety of nature, not simply the creatures that live within it. "That's exactly what he's saying," Dawkins told the paper. "I know nothing of the details of the physics, but I had always assumed the same thing."

I spoke too soon. It looks like they did go ahead and tow the “evolution automatically refutes a teleological view of the universe” line after all in addition to the rest. I really should have seen this coming.

However, religious commentators have criticized Hawking's theorizing, saying he can never hope to explain what is essentially unexplainable.

"If all the physical laws had been explained and proved—which is a million miles from the case—our understanding of the actions of God would not be one whit greater: his existence and his actions are of a different order," writes Quentin de la Bedoyere, science editor of the U.K.'s Catholic Herald newspaper. "Most particularly it would not touch the question of how something existing comes out from nothing. That is a question which science cannot answer, and will never answer, because nothingness is not within its domain. ... Neither [Hawking], nor you, nor I will ever explain creation, except through faith."

He was doing so well until that final sentence. But because he messed up there and said that “faith” line, he has allowed the psyches of thousands of atheists reading his words to focus on that one thing and overlook the common sense of the rest. A week after reading the quote, it will be the only thing they remember him saying.

Stephen Hawking has given many signs lately that in the best case scenario what brilliance he may have once genuinely had is slipping, and in the worst case scenario he is losing his capacity for original and rational thought, or isn’t bothering to use said capacity. One of his other most recent articles is just one long cliché about how aliens probably exist and will probably be hostile toward us and must be of vastly superior intelligence and so on. Barring all the other errors involved, you’d at least think that he of all people would understand that the only thing necessary for a race to develop interstellar travel is not superhuman intelligence but only intelligence that’s at minimum approximately human, given that the human brain has not grown definitely and noticeably more intelligent in the few thousand years we’ve been really developing our technology, and obviously still will not have if in a few more thousand years we’ve taken it to new levels like interstellar travel ourselves. It just takes a mind like our own and a lot of dedicated time and practice, not an inherently greater intellect. Perhaps it is dedicated time and practice that Mr. Hawking has fallen out of, because for the reasons I have given (and I’m really only scratching the surface) he hasn’t given any more sign of applying mental effort to the subject of theism either. As Stephen King wrote in On Writing, no one can be as intellectually lazy as a really smart person. Nevertheless, Hawking’s words are good for one thing: they go to show that even the most intelligent nontheists in the world can’t come up with any argumentation that’s even remotely new, logical, or even interesting.

**IAmZamzam** · 09-14-2010

Originally Posted by czgibson

Now THAT is what I call an ad hominem. What do you think?

More or less. In any event I'll bet it's in violation of the board rules. vale's lily needs to pipe down a little.

**IAmZamzam** · 09-14-2010

All this calling for me to "present my arguments", while quite deliberately ignoring my gratuitous repetition of one of them, though they were all laid out there in black and white from the start. Not that I think it will be any less ignored if I repeat it again, but fool that I am, here goes:

SOMETHING HAS TO EXIST FIRST BEFORE IT CAN PERFORM ANY SORT OF ACTION OR FUNCTION, BE IT CREATION OR ANYTHING ELSE. AND IF IT ALREADY EXISTS, IT HAS ALREADY BEEN CREATED. THEREFORE, SELF-CREATION IS IMPOSSIBLE.

**جوري** · 09-14-2010

Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman

In any event I'll bet it's in violation of the board rules.

That is a question for the mods considering a long history of posts from the parties involved and not a mere thread!

and even though the edited version is now reflected in your post excluding the part of interest, I was neither your 'cheer leader' as per Trumble, in fact I merely questioned the validity of his claims rather than his comments on yours, nor am I taking your side, in fact my objection comes from a long history of vehemence and exasperation as often expressed by both parties simply to oppose any Muslim!

**IAmZamzam** · 09-14-2010

Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

Even though the edited version is now reflected in your post excluding the part of interest, I was neither your 'cheer leader' as per Trumble, in fact I merely questioned the validity of his claims rather than his comments on yours, nor am I taking your side, in fact my objection comes from a long history of vehemence and exasperation as often expressed by both parties simply to oppose any Muslim!

I know what it's like to feel that way. But you did more than question. You've, in fact, done little but insult people most all the way through. I appreciate your position and your effort, but you need to either dampen your passion, perhaps by taking a step back and giving yourself time for a metaphorical deep breath and then maybe coming back here after a few days, or else channel your passion through something other than venom.

**جوري** · 09-14-2010

Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman

I know what it's like to feel that way. But you did more than question. You've, in fact, done little but insult people most all the way through. I appreciate your position and your effort, but you need to either dampen your passion, perhaps by taking a step back and giving yourself time for a metaphorical deep breath and then maybe coming back here after a few days, or else channel your passion through something other than venom.

This is the way I express my 'passion' I don't see it as an insult as it is an observation and more so of what is written than the individual, again from a long history of events of which you weren't present-- and I find this a good outlet for such expressions as to what goes on in daily life against Islam and Muslims by like minded individuals.. My being here is separate from your personal efforts for you to appreciate it in any regards (thanks either way) simply because someone made a comment that you feel links your posts to mine, doesn't make it so, it doesn't mar your endeavors as disjoined from mine. It is otherwise a public forum for each to express their views!

**IAmZamzam** · 09-14-2010

Originally Posted by the vale's lily

This is the way I express my 'passion' I don't see it as an insult as it is an observation and more so of what is written than the individual, again from a long history of events of which you weren't present-- and I find this a good outlet for such expressions as to what goes on in daily life against Islam and Muslims by like minded individuals.. My being here is separate from your personal efforts for you to appreciate it in any regards (thanks either way) simply because someone made a comment that you feel links your posts to mine, doesn't make it so, it doesn't mar your endeavors as disjoined from mine. It is otherwise a public forum for each to express their views!

Saying "if you enjoy useless back and forth drivel then welcome to his playground" is not merely making observations: it is making fun of someone, plain and simple. But it's an issue for the mods and we're getting sidetracked again. Not that it much matters, I suppose, since my disproof of self-causation (probably along with every other individual point I made in the OP) will go unaddressed till kingdom come. Which wouldn't be a bad thing, only (mark my words) three pages from now, if this thread goes on that long (please God no), trumble and Hugo will still be insisting that they're not the ones dodging anything because they'll still be continuing to act as though I haven't made myself clear. It's an ancient debating tactic: ask for clarification where things have been clear from the start, justifying it by completely ignoring what was said from the first, and just keep pretending that the references to and repetitions of these original statements that are the only answers possible in such a situation are dodges. Repeat as often as necessary. I really should keep to what I said a page ago and not post again unless there is finally something on-topic to post about.

**جوري** · 09-14-2010

Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman

Saying "if you enjoy useless back and forth drivel then welcome to his playground" is not merely making observations: it is making fun of someone, plain and simple.

Not at all, again, if you should follow each of his posts/threads, you'd have in fact ended up thanking me for such an observation for the exact same conclusion that you've reasoned out in the end.
be that as it may, I didn't intend you with that comment otherwise I'd have quoted you-- it was meant as a general rule for those entering into this with the desire to a sound distillate rather than engage in endless vain discourse.. not unlike what is going on at the moment!

**czgibson** · 09-14-2010

Greetings,

Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman

Not that it much matters, I suppose, since my disproof of self-causation (probably along with every other individual point I made in the OP) will go unaddressed till kingdom come.

I inevitably disagree with much of what you wrote in your opening post, but I will address this point, seeing as you feel it's being ignored, only to say that I am also suspicious of Hawking's reasoning here - at least on the evidence I've seen so far. I've not read the book yet; I've just seen a few reviews (and to be honest, though I hope to read it one day, there are many things on my reading list before it). Self-causation is a huge thing to suggest and attempt to explain - I've certainly never been able to accept it whenever it features in theistic arguments - and from what I can gather he's basing his explanation in part on results that he hopes will arrive in the future.

Having said that, quotes like the following give such a bald and brief statement of what simply must be a larger argument that it's difficult to form any firm conclusion about the argument's validity:

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing," the pair write, in an extract published in today's London Times. "Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going."

There are so many assumptions there that nobody could reasonably use it in this form as an argument for atheism. I think it's also premature to attempt to refute such an argument before reading it in full.

Peace

**CosmicPathos** · 09-14-2010

hawking has lost it. that is what happens when ego reaches ones head.

**Trumble** · 09-15-2010

Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman

Such misrepresentation. I wonder if you read the entire OP at all.

Just to put your mind at rest, yes I did.

It’s not enough that the word “gravity” is in it. The whole thing (in that part of the paper, anyway) was about self-creation. My point would have remained the same had Hawking said, instead of “gravity”, “the electro-weak force”, “the strong nuclear force”, “the mathematical transitive law”, or “Eat at Joe’s”.

Feel free to substitute any of those things for 'gravity' (with the possible exception of the diner), and try and answer my point in #49?

Not only did I say what arguments I was responding to every time, I used direct quotations.

Yes, you used direct quotations. Unfortunately none of those quotations include arguments, nor is any summary of Hawking's arguments anywhere to be seen. I'm assuming you actually know what an argument is?

I cannot aid a lack of reading comprehension. You’re just going to have to deal with that on your own.

Oh, dear.. waffle time. My reading comprehension is just fine, thank you.

SOMETHING HAS TO EXIST FIRST BEFORE IT CAN PERFORM ANY SORT OF ACTION OR FUNCTION, BE IT CREATION OR ANYTHING ELSE. AND IF IT ALREADY EXISTS, IT HAS ALREADY BEEN CREATED. THEREFORE, SELF-CREATION IS IMPOSSIBLE.

Shouting won't make any difference. That is, indeed, an argument although it's relevance to Hawking remains obscure. Which takes us back to #49 (which you clearly didn't read - now that is ironic!) Let me clarify, in case that is needed. Your second premise is that if something already exists, it has already been created. I have pointed out to you that there is at least one thing that exists that according to your own logic cannot have been created, causation itself. You have said there is another entity that also was not created, God. We now have two very different counter examples to show that that premise cannot be universally true, as well as no reason not to suspect there might be more (including the fundamental physical forces, which would seem not unpromising candidates), therefore your argument is invalid.

Your conclusion might still be true, of course, despite that. Which is why, in the context of what the thread is supposedly about, we really should consider whether gravity (or any other forces) that Hawking or anybody else may claim are responsible for 'creation' do, indeed, need to have been created themselves. As there seems to be no reason to assume that is the case, the relevance or otherwise of that conclusion to what Hawking is saying can be assessed only against the background of his arguments. Self-creation of exactly what? And why is that dependent on the existence of gravity? Who knows? Those who have read the book, presumably. If, as the quote suggests, his claim is that the universe can "create itself from nothing" because of the existence of a force like gravity, in what way does that differ logically from a claim that the universe can create itself from nothing because of the existence of God?!

**IAmZamzam** · 09-15-2010

Uncreated and self-created are two different concepts, Trumble. As for "causation itself", that is merely semantics, because "causation" as a collective noun is not a single thing but just a type of thing that happens. It's like asking me how I explain the cause of running. There is no one cause of running, only what caused any individual person to begin any individual act of swiftly and alternatingly putting one foot before the other on any given occasion in which running occurs. Likewise, there is no single cause of causation "itself", only the causes of individual instances in that all but perpetual string--the dog chased the cat, the cat chased the rat, the rat ate the cheese, you know how it goes--that interconnected web of causation stretching back toward the Big Bang or whatever, in which all spacetime events themselves equally ultimately stem from an omnitemporal, omnipresent Causer whose absence of a definite point in spacetime and material reality removes Him from causal necessity. The universe never created itself from nothing, nor could it. Only something itself not found in the physical cosmos could have created it.

Self-creation of what? Who cares. I've shown about a googolplex times that nothing can create itself and my logic is so irrefutable that no one's even pretended to try to refute the argument itself. Would it help if I made the terms broader and simpler to get people to stop overlooking it?

1. In order for something to perform an action (causation/creation or anything else), it has to exist. Nonexistent things can't do anything. Because they're not even there in the first place.
2. If something already exists, it has already been caused or created.
3. Therefore, nothing can cause/create itself, since in order to do so it would have had to perform actions before it existed.

**Trumble** · 09-16-2010

Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman

As for "causation itself", that is merely semantics, because "causation" as a collective noun is not a single thing but just a type of thing that happens.

There is no such thing a 'merely semantics'. And it is totally irrelevant whether it is a single thing ('the law of cause and effect') or a type of thing, it is still a single thing or a type of thing that was neither created nor caused. Just like God. And just like, well... what else? You seem to have some sort of block on addressing that point.

Self-creation of what? Who cares.

That rather depends on how interested you actually are in the supposed topic which in your case, apparently, is not in the slightest. Hawking is (presumably) not offering an abstract philosophical argument as to whether things in general can create themselves or appear 'out of nothing', but a specific scientific and mathematical one in relation to the creation of the universe. It is therefore essential to examine what he actually means.

I've shown about a googolplex times that nothing can create itself and my logic is so irrefutable that no one's even pretended to try to refute the argument itself. Would it help if I made the terms broader and simpler to get people to stop overlooking it?

As I have already explained, '2' is not universal (due to the existence of counter examples) and therefore your argument is unsound; I'm afraid it's not me doing the 'overlooking'. So, no, yet another repetition of your 'irrefutable logic' doesn't 'help' in the slightest.

**IAmZamzam** · 09-16-2010

Originally Posted by Trumble

There is no such thing a 'merely semantics'.

I beg to differ! So, I think, would anyone else, would everyone else.

And it is totally irrelevant whether it is a single thing ('the law of cause and effect') or a type of thing, it is still a single thing or a type of thing that was neither created nor caused. Just like God. And just like, well... what else? You seem to have some sort of block on addressing that point.

And yet you claim you read my posts carefully! I said:

Originally Posted by Me

Uncreated and self-created are two different concepts...There is no single cause of causation "itself", only the causes of individual instances in that all but perpetual string--the dog chased the cat, the cat chased the rat, the rat ate the cheese, you know how it goes--that interconnected web of causation stretching back toward the Big Bang or whatever, in which all spacetime events themselves equally ultimately stem from an omnitemporal, omnipresent Causer whose absence of a definite point in spacetime and material reality removes Him from causal necessity. The universe never created itself from nothing, nor could it. Only something itself not found in the physical cosmos could have created it.

That was ONE POST AGO. And here you go speaking as though I have a block on the issues of what couldn’t have been caused, why and how it’s the only thing in that set, and about that “the cause of causation” blather. I’m telling you, I am teetering on the edge of ceasing to bother responding to you at all.

That rather depends on how interested you actually are in the supposed topic which in your case, apparently, is not in the slightest. Hawking is (presumably) not offering an abstract philosophical argument as to whether things in general can create themselves or appear 'out of nothing', but a specific scientific and mathematical one in relation to the creation of the universe. It is therefore essential to examine what he actually means.

No it’s not, unless he means something other than what he said, which claimed that anything could ever be self-creating, and that’s exactly what I was disproving. Whether an argument is scientific, philosophical, abstract, non-abstract, or anything else, if it claims something provably impossible, it is equally out in all cases.

As I have already explained, '2' is not universal (due to the existence of counter examples) and therefore your argument is unsound; I'm afraid it's not me doing the 'overlooking'.

Since the only reasons you gave as a counter to #2 are themselves things I did indeed address and which you staunchly continue to pretend I haven’t, there is no possible conclusion anyone reading this could make (or probably has made, unless that person is you) but that you are indeed the one doing the overlooking. Even if gravity were uncaused, we were talking about self-causation, not uncausation, which is not only an entirely separate concept but also mutually exclusive.

So, no, yet another repetition of your 'irrefutable logic' doesn't 'help' in the slightest.

And oddly enough, still yet no one has refuted it.

**tango92** · 09-16-2010

something which is uncreated should have no boundaries. gravity, always acts a certain way, is based on rules etc one asks where did those rules come from? why are they the way they are?

**Trumble** · 09-16-2010

Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman

Since the only reasons you gave as a counter to #2 are themselves things I did indeed address and which you staunchly continue to pretend I haven’t

No, you haven't. I'm not 'pretending' anything. You just cannot escape your own pomposity long enough to accept that as you pretend to be responding to Hawking your 'argument' cannot be addressed except in relation to what Hawking says.

And oddly enough, still yet no one has refuted it.

Oddly enough, I have.

I’m telling you, I am teetering on the edge of ceasing to bother responding to you at all.

Probably just as well. You seem to have nothing else to say.

**Hugo** · 09-16-2010

Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman

... web of causation stretching back toward the Big Bang or whatever, in which all spacetime events themselves equally ultimately stem from an omnitemporal, omnipresent Causer whose absence of a definite point in spacetime and material reality removes Him from causal necessity. The universe never created itself from nothing, nor could it. Only something itself not found in the physical cosmos could have created it.

One can see you point but it is no more than speculation and unprovable as there seems no way to show that something not in the cosmos exists.

Now it is easy to agree with you say that in physics the notion of cause and effect and the presumption that something from the future cannot influence something in the past. But there are some cracks, for example radioactivity. An atom, such as radium will eventually decay, and in the process it will emit energy. But there is no known triggering event that could serve as the cause of this decay event. In a large collection of radium atoms the rate of decay can be accurately predicted, but the identity of the decayed atoms cannot be determined beforehand. Their decay is random and uncaused.

Another crack in this belief system has been produced by quantum mechanical events such that the same sequence of causal events (or causal factors) regularly produces different effects (i.e. results), but the results may repeat themselves in some random (unknowable) sequence. You can argue of course that there must be a cause but unless you can find it all we can say is the evidence so far does not in the cases I mentioned support the causation idea.

**Argamemnon** · 09-16-2010

Originally Posted by Trumble

IMHO, it's hardly fair appropriate to accuse one of the leading scientists of our times of being 'illogical', floating strawmen and all the rest of it on the basis of somebody else's comments on his book, and a couple of small quotes. Read the book, then do it. In addition, it's very hard to take seriously any author that suggests such a person is "losing his capacity for original and rational thought" just because he happens to present an opinion the author happens to disagree with. You are obviously capable of presenting a reasonable argument without resorting to ad hominem rubbish, so why not do so?

Scientists are not always honest or knowledgeable. Here is an amazing admission by Professor Richard Lewontin who is one of the world's leaders in evolutionary biology.

"‘We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.

The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that Miracles may happen [but see the difference between origin and operational science—Ed.]."

**IAmZamzam** · 09-16-2010

Originally Posted by Hugo

One can see you point but it is no more than speculation and unprovable as there seems no way to show that something not in the cosmos exists.

Now it is easy to agree with you say that in physics the notion of cause and effect and the presumption that something from the future cannot influence something in the past. But there are some cracks, for example radioactivity. An atom, such as radium will eventually decay, and in the process it will emit energy. But there is no known triggering event that could serve as the cause of this decay event. In a large collection of radium atoms the rate of decay can be accurately predicted, but the identity of the decayed atoms cannot be determined beforehand. Their decay is random and uncaused.

Another crack in this belief system has been produced by quantum mechanical events such that the same sequence of causal events (or causal factors) regularly produces different effects (i.e. results), but the results may repeat themselves in some random (unknowable) sequence. You can argue of course that there must be a cause but unless you can find it all we can say is the evidence so far does not in the cases I mentioned support the causation idea.

I repeat: you have your ghost in the machine, I have mine. Both ghosts are things outside of what our personal knowledge shows to be the norm: at least the theistic one is not obligated to be otherwise by its own logic.

Or pardon me, nontheists have their ghost and we have ours. Really, you've been talking so much like one and taking their side so consistently that I have honestly forgotten on several occasions when responding to you that you're a Christian. That's not a quip or an exaggeration: it's the literal, serious truth.

**Karl** · 09-17-2010

If you believe in the cosmos then you believe in God. As the old Greek ancients said the time before God was the chaos. God gave order to the universe creating the cosmos. So without God there would only be eternal chaos.
God creating order out of the chaos is called the creation of the cosmos. So if you don't believe in God you must believe the creation never happened and we are still in a state of chaos. Which is impossible as a state of chaos means totally unstable atomic bonds, time and space random mayhem, all waves of energy totally random total disorder on all levels. So we could not exist in that state. So God must exist but I suppose the argument could be what exactly is God? I think we can't really get our heads around that one. So we have many religions and squabble about what is the truth like little children fighting over toys.

**Hugo** · 09-17-2010

Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman

I repeat: you have your ghost in the machine, I have mine. Both ghosts are things outside of what our personal knowledge shows to be the norm: at least the theistic one is not obligated to be otherwise by its own logic. Or pardon me, nontheists have their ghost and we have ours. Really, you've been talking so much like one and taking their side so consistently that I have honestly forgotten on several occasions when responding to you that you're a Christian. That's not a quip or an exaggeration: it's the literal, serious truth.

Try not always to be so sure of yourself especially when you think about what others might say or do or belive. I know nothing of any ghost in my machine and all I ever do or at least try to do is separate what is scientific from what is lets call it supernatural as I don't think the two mix, especially the supernatural with science. So my stated position is that I see nothing wrong with cause and effect but I am also aware there are what I called cracks in the idea and so there are areas were I simply don't know.

Just as an example, if I were say looking at the authenticity of Biblical or Qu'ranic text then my position is that I have to shut out of my mind any notion that these are or might be from God because to do so is to pre-judge the issue and impose a view that cannot be verified. So instead I take the scientific route and can carbon date the papers, looking at the form of writing, the ink used, the thickness of the ink, history of transmission and so on. I might also use textual criticism or compare it with literature of the time. But ALL I am doing is grounded if that is the right word in establishing that the text is authentic from the period and I offer no opinion one way or the others as to its putative supernatural author. This of course does not mean I will not treat it from a personal point of view as God given but I MUST separate out that from what can be established in terms let's call it material evidence.