A statement in the holy qu'ran

**alienx** · 09-12-2010

Salaam.

I recently registered and submitted a new thread etitled 'A Response to Stephen Hawking that no God created the Unverse'. I also stated that I became a Muslim at the age of 57 and it may be relevant to my original thread to say why I did that.

In 1929, Edwin Hubble, having read for a law degree and hated every minute of it, published his research carried out after his 'rush' back to observational astronomy that was his first and only academic love.

Using a fairly large telescope, he had a spectroscope of sorts at the end one normally looks through. The spectroscope received light from other galaxies and split it into its components much in the same way as a prism can split light into the colours of the rainbow. Those components of light can be photographed quite easily just by using a camera attachment.

In a spetrum of light from a star, various black lines appear in the colours that are characteristic of the elements present in the star such as hydrogen, helium, sodium and others. Those lines are in the same place unless the source of light is moving towards you or away from you, in which case, they move either towards the blue end of the spectrum or towards the red end. A blue shift means that the light source is moving towards you and a red shift, the opposite.

The 1929 paper by Hubble showed that the spectral lines in the light from galaxies was red shifted. Not all of them but most of them. He concluded that the universe is expanding and fairly recently, it has been found that the expansion is accelerating.

A passage in the Holy Qu'ran was brought to my attention. Everyone probably knows it and translated it is 'I HAVE MADE THE HEAVENS WITH POWER. VERILY, I AM EXPANDING IT VASTLY'.

That was more than enough for me. A statement recorded in around the year 670 and verified in the year 1929. How could any man before the Twentieth Century have known that the universe is expanding? OK, someone may say that the blackness of the night sky tells you of the expansion. Why? Olbers' paradox says that if the universe is really big, there should be a really large number of stars. In fact, everywhere you look,you should see light from stars. The night sky should be ablaze with light, but it is not. Reason is, the light from the most distant stars is not evident. Why? The only conclusion is that the light has red-shifted out of our viusual range. Conclusion? The universe is expanding. But that one is also long after around 670 and no-one then knew about the Doppler Effect that deals with sound as well as light (police car siren raises in pitch when moving towards you and lowers when the car is moving away from you).

My conclusion was that only the one doing it would know and for me, everything spiralled from there.

Is there a God? If not, who would have known enough astrophysics to make that statement? For those who want to say extra-terrestrials (aliens), go ahead. There is more evidence for a God in the Holy Qu'ran than there is for aliens, although 'others' are evident.

That brings me to the idea of a 5-dimensional quantum solitonic field outlined in the original thread. Personally, I attribute the statements of God with literal truth for there is no reason for lies.

When God says 'I MADE...' and 'I AM EXPANDING IT...' there is literal truth. I do not visualise an entity with a long white beard waving his magic wand saying 'let the universe expand vastly'. The alternative literal interpretation is that the very structure of God is bringing about the change in volume of the universe.

**Muslim Woman** · 09-12-2010

Salaam bro

Welcome to Islam. Thanks for sharing the nice post.

some related verses :

By the star when it goes down, (or vanishes).

( سورة النجم , An-Najm, Chapter #53, Verse #1)

And that He (Allah) is the Lord of Sirius (the star which the pagan Arabs used to worship);

( سورة النجم , An-Najm, Chapter #53, Verse #49)

By the heaven, and At-Tariq (the night-comer, i.e. the bright star);

( سورة الطارق , At-Tariq, Chapter #86, Verse #1)

We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their ownselves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Quran) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things?

( سورة فصلت , Fussilat, Chapter #41, Verse #53)

**alienx** · 09-12-2010

Thank you and salaam.

**Zafran** · 09-12-2010

Salaam

welcome to Islam

peace

**Trumble** · 09-12-2010

Originally Posted by alienx

A passage in the Holy Qu'ran was brought to my attention. Everyone probably knows it and translated it is 'I HAVE MADE THE HEAVENS WITH POWER. VERILY, I AM EXPANDING IT VASTLY'.

Translated by Harun Yahya it is. However, Pickthall translates it as

.We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof)....

Shakir as

And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample...

and Yusuf Ali as

With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space..

It ONLY appears in that English translation (and in no translations into any other language), and those derived directly from it. In other words, the only person who interpreted the verse as referring to an 'expanding' universe in the sense modern cosmology understands that term is a pseudo-scholar who spends half his life trawling the Qur'an for anything that can be 'interpreted' as a 'miracle' in the light of something he has just read in a copy of Scientific American. No astrophysical skill was needed to make that statement simply because, as Yayha translates and interprets it, it was never made - by God or anybody else. Until Hubble, anyway!

**CosmicPathos** · 09-12-2010

Originally Posted by Trumble

Translated by Harun Yahya it is. However, Pickthall translates it as

.We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof)....

Shakir as

And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample...

and Yusuf Ali as

With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space..

It ONLY appears in that English translation (and in no translations into any other language), and those derived directly from it. In other words, the only person who interpreted the verse as referring to an 'expanding' universe in the sense modern cosmology understands that term is a pseudo-scholar who spends half his life trawling the Qur'an for anything that can be 'interpreted' as a 'miracle' in the light of something he has just read in a copy of Scientific American. No astrophysical skill was needed to make that statement simply because, as Yayha translates and interprets it, it was never made - by God or anybody else. Until Hubble, anyway!

An ignorant Buddhist. Arabic words have multitudes of meanings. Why is it that if you translate this verse in any way, it still stands true? Whether it is "We Who Create the Vastness of Space" or "we are expanding it," both are actually true realities confirmed by scientific observations of the cosmos.

**Insaanah** · 09-12-2010

Originally Posted by Trumble

Translated by Harun Yahya it is. However, Pickthall translates it as

.We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof)....

Shakir as

And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample...

and Yusuf Ali as

With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space..

It ONLY appears in that English translation (and in no translations into any other language), and those derived directly from it. In other words, the only person who interpreted the verse as referring to an 'expanding' universe in the sense modern cosmology understands that term is a pseudo-scholar who spends half his life trawling the Qur'an for anything that can be 'interpreted' as a 'miracle' in the light of something he has just read in a copy of Scientific American. No astrophysical skill was needed to make that statement simply because, as Yayha translates and interprets it, it was never made - by God or anybody else. Until Hubble, anyway!

I didn't know you were knowledgable in the Arabic language to be able to make the statements bolded above about what is and isn't in the Qur'an and what statements Allah did or didn't make.

They are but translations of the Qur'an, and are not the Qur'an.

Here is the verse (51:47):

51 47 1 - A statement in the holy qu'ran

51 47 1 - A statement in the holy qu'ran

The word to your left, before the circle, is what you're looking at.

It is pronounced moosi3oon (moosi'oon)

It is derived from the root, awsa3a, yoosi3u, meaning "to expand or cause to expand". Moosi3un is the doer of the verb, in the present tense.

With the pronouns and particles added on, it means, "And verily, We are the Expander, expanding it, or causing it to expand". Translated in Sahih International as "We are [its] expander".

Peace.

**Trumble** · 09-12-2010

Originally Posted by Insaanah

They are but translations of the Qur'an, and are not the Qur'an.

Indeed. That is perhaps why Arab astronomers spent thirteen hundred years or so conspicuously not talking about an expanding universe, just like all the other astronomers!

It is derived from the root, awsa3a, yusi3u, meaning "to expand or cause to expand".

Or 'make spacious', or 'make things plentiful', or indeed just about any variation on that theme. Or is this the only Arabic word without that multitude of meanings mad_scientist was enlightening this ignorant Buddhist about? The trick here is not so much the 'meaning' as the unjustifiable association of one loaded presentation of it with a particular scientific concept that uses one (English) word in a very particular way. Anyway, as usual the debate is pointless. Opinions are too coloured by existing preconceptions.

**Insaanah** · 09-12-2010

Originally Posted by Trumble

Indeed. That is perhaps why Arab astronomers spent thirteen hundred years or so conspicuously not talking about an expanding universe!

They had no need to. The Qur'an is not a science book. That the universe is expanding is not the main message of the book, and had science not made the discovery about the expanding universe, that would not mean that it wasn't happening. We don't need science to prove these facts true for us, as we know they are true as they are stated by the Creator of the universe.

Originally Posted by Trumble

Or 'make spacious', or 'make things plentiful', or indeed just about any variation on that theme. Or is this the only Arabic word without that multitude of meanings mad_scientist was enlightening this ignorant Buddhist about? The trick here is not so much the 'meaning' as the unjustifiable association of one loaded presentation of it with a particular scientific concept that uses one word in a very particular way.

I will ignore your own ideas on the language, and please, there is no trick here, as exciting as you might find it if there was one (God forbid).

Originally Posted by Trumble

Anyway, as usual the debate is pointless.

It wasn't a debate until you entered. This was simply a new Muslim sharing with us what brought him to Islam.

Originally Posted by Trumble

Opinions are too coloured by existing preconceptions.

You may go on existing preconceptions, we go on knowledge and firm conviction.

Peace.

EDIT: Welcome to the forum, and a belated welome back home to Islam, brother alienx

**bhakti** · 09-13-2010

Originally Posted by Insaanah

With the pronouns and particles added on, it means, "And verily, We are the Expander, expanding it, or causing it to expand". Translated in Sahih International as "We are [its] expander".

And yet scholars such as Pickthall, Yousuf Ali and Shakir all translate it as "vast extent" or "ample"?

Ah, I guess these guys (considered as stalwarts as almost all muslims) are all ignorant of the Arabic language! Come on...any sane man can make out the truth here....

Believing in your faith in one thing but misguiding other people using deceptive practices is just pure lies and lies alone...

Now don't come back and tell me Arabic words have multiple meanings. Clearly all the three above saw the same meaning independently. Besides, if everything has multiple meanings, then what is the point of scripture when you can pick and choose the meaning that suits you and interpret it as and how you wish?

**CosmicPathos** · 09-13-2010

Originally Posted by bhakti

And yet scholars such as Pickthall, Yousuf Ali and Shakir all translate it as "vast extent" or "ample"?

Ah, I guess these guys (considered as stalwarts as almost all muslims) are all ignorant of the Arabic language! Come on...any sane man can make out the truth here....

Believing in your faith in one thing but misguiding other people using deceptive practices is just pure lies and lies alone...

Now don't come back and tell me Arabic words have multiple meanings. Clearly all the three above saw the same meaning independently. Besides, if everything has multiple meanings, then what is the point of scripture when you can pick and choose the meaning that suits you and interpret it as and how you wish?

go and pick and choose any meaning, all are validated by the reality as we know it! Thats the miracle of the Quran. Hindu Bhakti, what about your scriptures ... if you follow any? or are you an atheist? Staunch believer of offering fruits and milk to the gods as a Bhakti Yogi? eh? Your religion is inconsistent even if it hides within it the history of human thought in South Asia, it is a jumble of myths and fantasies ... shiva, vishnu, hanuman, ganesh ... when a Hindu talks about being rational, I cant take him seriously ... that is why many Hindus in major cities are becoming atheists .... Bangalore, New Delhi, Mumbai ... its kind of funny how Hindu theists also consider Hindu atheists' choice of disbelief as a valid way to attain salvation aka mukti ... talk about inconsistency and disorganization of thought.

**جوري** · 09-13-2010

Translations don't usurp the original tongue-- the mere fact that each translator came up with his own rendition to the words should echo the difficulty encountered in capturing the original Arabic- Quran isn't the work of pickthall or Weiss if a person wanted to understand the true meaning they'd study, not bring the first translation that echoes their moot point..
Also, I think Muslim astronomers were doing very well thank you.. at a time when Roger the II of Sicily thought the earth flat, a Muslim geographer was gifting him with a globe of the earth which Roger subsequently crushed.. if the west were as progressive as all that, why did it go on looting sovereign nations while self-appointing themselves as civilized? Read up on a history book every now and then unmarred by modern politics..

all the best

**alienx** · 09-13-2010

Hi everyone, remember me? I'm the one who posted the thread. The one who at the age of 57 (13 years ago) embraced Islam after reading the 1934 translated version by Yousouf Ali.

If I was totally misled by inaccuracies in the translation and a connived footnote, perhaps I should have adhered to my previous thoughts being:

all religions are the opiats of the masses (Karl Marx),
God is a fiction made by others to extort money to line their churches with gold and
religions are sets of rules made by Adolf Hitlers lookalikes to make others do their bidding because they crave power.

**جوري** · 09-13-2010

you are nothing if not original!

all the best

**abdussattar** · 09-13-2010

Originally Posted by alienx

If I was totally misled by inaccuracies in the translation and a connived footnote, perhaps I should have adhered to my previous thoughts being:

Hmm I think it is better to read various translations, rather then sticking to one.

The best is to learn arabic language, that way, you can't be misled by anyone, but I know it is not everyone's interest.

**Trumble** · 09-13-2010

Originally Posted by alienx

If I was totally misled by inaccuracies in the translation and a connived footnote, perhaps I should have adhered to my previous thoughts being:

all religions are the opiats of the masses (Karl Marx),
God is a fiction made by others to extort money to line their churches with gold and
religions are sets of rules made by Adolf Hitlers lookalikes to make others do their bidding because they crave power.

Why? None of those things are true (I believe God is a fiction, obviously, but not one created for that reason!) And for 1,300 years or so people have happily embraced Islam after reading or listening to the Qur'an knowing nothing about expanding universes, relativity, or how many 'layers of atmosphere' somebody decided there is.

I think I'll just go away now...

**bhakti** · 09-13-2010

Originally Posted by mad_scientist

go and pick and choose any meaning, all are validated by the reality as we know it! Thats the miracle of the Quran. Hindu Bhakti, what about your scriptures ... if you follow any? or are you an atheist? Staunch believer of offering fruits and milk to the gods as a Bhakti Yogi? eh? Your religion is inconsistent even if it hides within it the history of human thought in South Asia, it is a jumble of myths and fantasies ... shiva, vishnu, hanuman, ganesh ... when a Hindu talks about being rational, I cant take him seriously ... that is why many Hindus in major cities are becoming atheists .... Bangalore, New Delhi, Mumbai ... its kind of funny how Hindu theists also consider Hindu atheists' choice of disbelief as a valid way to attain salvation aka mukti ... talk about inconsistency and disorganization of thought.

Here's what just happened:

Me: Your claims are wrong because of point 1...point 2 etc. etc.

You: (Hmmm...i'm cornered, what do I do now. Oh yeah, the classic approach!) Your religion sucks!!

lol! come on....if you have nothing to say on the topic at hand, don't say anything!

**alienx** · 09-13-2010

Apart from a short while living in lancaster, i had no company of other brothers.

There is but one musjid in malta where the legal and illegal immigrants looked at me as though i were some pale skinned insect who had emerged from under a rock the first time my shoes came off.

I made up a row by myself five times on the first and only day after a 5 miles drive even though there was an incomplete row in front of me. It was like a north african golf club without a golf course.

As i cannot find any things to click on, would those running this site please delete my details. Apart from a couple of people who wished me well,
this is like malta but in a different way.

Sorry to have caused any dissent.

**IAmZamzam** · 09-14-2010

I believe Arberry renders the verse as, "...and we extend it wide". Note the present tense. Arberry was writing (I think) before the expansion of the universe was well known. Could've been before it was known period. And Arberry was a non-Muslim. And widely considered the best translator of the Koran (by those who don't give it to Abdullah Yusuf Ali, anyway).

Nonetheless, the Koran was not the only source of scientific precociousness in the ancient world. There was a lot more of that sort of thing than most people know.

**Ramadhan** · 09-15-2010

I personally think it's part of the miracles of the Qur'an: it reveals its secrets one by one just like how an onion is peeled.
Very probably in the future we will have sufficient scientific knowledge that is already contained in some ayah that we now consider scientifically meaningless.
For people living in the past centuries, the verse "we construct the heavens with might and expand it" may have sounded "meaningless", but our current scientific knowledge now make us able to read/see the deeper truth of this ayah.