Where does God fit in?

Science today can explain almost everything we previously didn't know to a fairly good amount of detail and certainty. ......where does God fit into the picture?

you can't find a toshiba laptop in the park and hire a team of people to observe how it works, who then come out with some (sometimes conflicting) descriptions of how it might work, and sometimes find new details proving that their previous hypothesis was wrong,
and then say: where does toshiba fit into this? and since this team (who is not able to create a laptop) has theorized as to how it possibly works (often with no solid evidence), the notion that someone with the know-how actually made it in the first place - and can make more of them - is "redundant", - doesn't make sense.

an eternal, all powerful being with the ability to will creation into being and make laws for them to run by,
makes a lot more sense to me than: something without intelligence somehow randomly appeared out of nothing, collided with other substance in an atmosphere that must have also somehow spontaneously come into existence from nothing, then exploded and separated according to a law which also somehow existed from nowhere, and those particles with no intelligence decided to follow that law (how did they decide?), or the law forced them to comply (how did the law think?),
and out of that came all that we see around us - including our own amazing intelligent creation, which also are forced by a non-willing, unintelligent thing to abide by physical laws, while we have intelligence.........

....forget it, i know it doesn't make sense.

humans are honoured above all creation in that they have a divine spark, the ability to make decisions in a way different from all other creation,
the Quran clearly tells us that God told the angels that He would put a "vicegerent" / "manager"/ "caretaker" / "subsidiary" on earth, one who would have the ability to shed blood and make mischief, and do right. and that He breathed of His spirit into him.
this creation was unique in that it was given the challenge of creating God's Kingdom on Earth - and running it willingly according to His Laws.
it was different to the angels who (like robots) can only follow orders.
their reward would be magnificent, and those who failed or messed it up would "get it", since they were given full control of their affairs - along with a manual.

to help them along - Prophets are sent with guidance and signs,
when you see clear prophecy foretell the future jot by jot - and it is self evident, then a scientist who talks of random processes with no intelligence - should be disregarded as a liar.
if certain people who call themselves establishment pleasing scientists decide to blatantly disregard these miracles and facts staring them in the face and live in denial, it means we have to think for ourselves.

Umm Salama said:
When the Mahdi appears,
God will cause such power of vision and hearing to be manifested in believers
that the Mahdi will call to the whole world from where he is, with no postman involved,
and they will hear and even see him.

neither satellite technology with broadcasting capability, nor tv's or computers with sound and vision existed at the time - how can a man minding sheep in the desert assert something like this 1400 years ago? what did he base this data on? and why would he say something which seemed so ridiculous (at the time) in front of people who were already doing their best to discredit him?
can you imagine living 1400 years ago and trying to understand how someone on the other side of the world would instantly see and hear you? while the man telling you this is having to send messengers with letters to kings across the desert often taking months to return.

Greetings of peace

I believe the two brothers have answered your questions well.

format_quote Originally Posted by IsamBitar

While this is true for some aspects of nature (beauty, relative precision, expanse, etc) it is wrong for other aspects. Things that some people like to call "bad design." Such as the fact that most planetary orbits are unstable, we're on a collision course with the Andromeda Galaxy, destructive natural disasters and lethal parasites, the blind spot in a vertebrate eye, etc. If you're going to account these to God, this would make a pretty lousy god in my opinion. That's why most scientists, even religious ones, choose to accept natural processes rather than every-minute-involvement of a god.

I would like to mention that the work of man is not perfect and never will be. All that the scientists discovered is merely not their creation in any form, I cannot for a second take into consideration that something amazing was created without a purpose or by a greator source.

Also the Qur'aan speaks about the lands that were destroyed due to extreme terrible acts commited by man, all I will say that if a whole earth quake can take place without us knowing when or where it will take place, God is all powerful and is able to do all that suits his majesty, so if a people are going out of hand, he is able to destroy them if he wills. And why not? It is the earth created by him, he has a right over it. Like you have a right over yourself, or any other individual has a right to be respected, protected etc. This earth also has a right to be protected, and cleaned it if it is full of dirt.

Some who will be punished in this life and some in the next, by the will of God. And I know well that you will find this something to disagree upon. I have no knowledge to why lethal parasites take place or the blind stop on a vertebate eye, someone more learned is better to reply, but there are things we will never know and the knowledge is with the creator, perhaps a scientist can help in your case i believe.

Also, God is the most mercyful but he is also severe in his punishment. And for the right reasons!

You may feel free to disagree. but I sincerely suggest you do your studies on those natural disasters and so on concerning God in Islam. reading and studying the Qur'aan is a step I recommend and the choice is completely yours.

How does a religious scientist deny the involvement of God in natural processes? apologies but not heard of this before.

my answer to that is God is all powerful and all knowing, he has the ability to control the natural every minute processes.

format_quote Originally Posted by IsamBitar

Now, you used the Quran as a reference to answer my initial question, which goes unanswered. Sorry, let me ask it in a clearer way: how do you know that the Quran is the word of God? You also say that God asks us to worship him not for his own satisfaction, but our own benefit. How is that? What benefit could I get from worshipping an invisible entity, even if it existed? It appears by the words of the Quran itself is that the sole purpose for our existence is to praise the creator, nothing more. Now why would a perfect entity create people for that purpose? It doesn't make sense. As for God only forbids things that harm us, if that was the case, God would, for example, forbid beef before pork. As beef is way, WAY, more fatty than pork. And when undercooked, it's even much more harmful than undercooked pork.

Okay, one of the reasons that tell me that Qur'aan is the word of God is if you read the title 'Al Qur'aan' in arabic it translates to 'the recitation'. now, what Allaah Allmighty tells us is that he will protect his word. The differences between the Qur'aan and other religious scriptures is that the Qur'aan is claimed to be the final testement sent to mankind. And if you were to even try to destroy this book, you could not, this is a fact. The reason is because thousands of muslims around the world ranging from young age to older ages have memorised this whole book in arabic since the time it was revealed (around more than 1400 years ago) till now, so if you were to go to every muslim around the world and listen to the Qur'aan you will notice they are all similar in wording, you can ask members on this forum regarding this, members on board are from different countries. There are many miracles in this book, some for example are of the Bee producing honey, we are made up of water etc etc.

Well, God commands us to worship him, not only in the essense of worshipping in prayer i.e. bow down, prostrate etc, but also ibadah (worship) as respecting ones parents, showing kindness to others, treating other how you would expect to be treated yourself and so much more. The benefit you would get from worshipping an invisible entity is similar to believing all the facts science puts out there but except realising the greatness of them, if the creation is magnifient, the creator is greator! There are countless amounts of benefits you would gain, that is if you sincerely turn to understand and do your studies much like how you do to understand the scientific facts out there..This is however your choice completely.

If the world doesn't see anything wrong in praising some man who won the nobel prize of discovering the creation he lives in then I do not see anything wrong with praising the creator of the universe who created the creation we live in, eat in, survive by what he provides, if you will it is your choice to disagree or agree.

The perfect entity is willing to give you people all that you want eternally compared to this world if you choose to obey his commands, i think it is only foolish to ignore those or to even say that when you have such a great offer at hand. I'm sure if a sincere and mercyful king entered your home and said 'I am willing to give you whatever you want, do you accept?'.. Allaah is telling us that the paradise is a place where their shall not be any sadness, sleep, laziness etc, but happiness, something that pleases you the most, to be reunited with your family etc. And isnt this what most of the world is trying to achieve anyway? to be rich and have a luxurious life? Allaah is the king that I am referring to here, the one who offers you this only if you do your part. The fact you cannot deny that the human eye or the heart or some creation is so amazing and say it has no purpose.

Whether it be beef or chicken, too much of anything is bad for your health it is only common sense to keep your limits on what you eat. Now, for example in the case of alcohol , it is never known to be good for your health, it has caused mostly destruction in a number of societies in the past and present day, not even a small quantity is permissable. regarding pork, i would believe it works in the smilar way, however I personally am not aware of its harmful-ness so i cannot answer that. I'd wait for a much better response on that.

format_quote Originally Posted by IsamBitar

Maybe in that context. But what about the human eye? What about the laryngeal nerve? The appendix? The prostate position?

may I ask, what about them? They are no different to the brain, ear, mouth etc. If you want a reply from myself concerning them, then my reply is they are a creation of God, and I am sure you find them to be amazing either way.

format_quote Originally Posted by IsamBitar

This is a job for you guys to do. But so far, I haven't found any evidence for that. Scientific miracles don't count, as most of them are not exactly miracle-material.

It just tells me that your not well learned in the studies of the Qur'aan, claiming the miracles are not 'miracle material'..correct me if I am wrong, since its a job only for 'us' guys.. let me correct you, Qur'aan was not just sent for the arab nations, it was sent for the whole world to ponder upon, its teachings, its word. I myself as a muslim am in the constant process of learning, as well as others on this forum. So, it's not really a job just for us 'guys', its also for other humans to study atleast, weather they want to believe its message or not. Since, you want to discuss God and being on an islamic forum, i recommend you read the Qur'aan.

format_quote Originally Posted by IsamBitar

This is exactly what the work (and video) is all about. Did you watch it?

Yes, i'll be honest I did watch half of it.

format_quote Originally Posted by IsamBitar

I personally think there is nothing after death. That when we die, we just come out of existence. And it is not a hard concept to grasp on, as we experience very large chunks of nothing every night, when we sleep. I believe that after we die, we will come back to a state in which we were in before our birth: nothing.
As for how science explains death, it is a permanent termination of the biological functions that sustain a living organism. Phenomena which commonly bring about death include old age, predation, malnutrition, disease, and accidents or trauma resulting in terminal injury. The death of a person is certain when that person's "I" i.e. the brain is dead.

I wouldn't look towards science for the answers for what comes 'after' death..It may well not be a hard concept to grasp on for you, but you are correct that we will turn back to 'nothing' and know how to define a person when they are dead, but doesn't mean we have no purpose. for myself to know that I am going to live in this world and then die and thats it, the end, is a rather depressing thought to ponder on. Does it not ever bother you that your going to be dead one day and realising there was no purpose? If not, then I guess this is your conclusion. But to know that there is life that exists after death is rather understanding and pleasing.

format_quote Originally Posted by IsamBitar

Likewise; please forgive any unsuitable words that I may have unintentionally said.

No problem.

Btw, Islam tells us that death occurs when the soul leaves the body, not when the brain dies,
A person can have a perfectly healthy brain and just knock out,
Or be brain dead and survive on life support,
If the process was evolutionary alone,
Then it wouldn't make sense that a person's flesh begins to rot after they die,
Since the biological cells alone would be responsible for keeping them alive, and the biological cells would be perfectly healthy,
Rather, it seems like some unexplainable electrical magnetic force which surrounds us and the planet, and is within us, a force which is "alive".
Google these words in one search: hz ELF eeg Schumann resonance prayer meditation brain frequency,

In Islam we call this thing a soul, something which causes a body to stay in tact while it is here, and cause all organs and cells to decompose once it leaves.


Also Search: Kobe Earthquake Japan tesla haarp ELF ionosphere HAARP,
The prophet (pbuh) explained to us that the antichrist would be able to control the weather (something difficult to fathom at the time), and something we people believed God alone can do, yet we were told that Antichrist would be allowed to tap these sources,
And now we live in an age of weather modification, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_control
Going off topic, but felt then need to emphasise that there is a force out there which is Not biological which keeps us alive
All which is being accessed initially through the utilisation of magnets and electricity,

Isambitar,
You speak vaguely of 'beneficial mutations' and I am challenging you to list them all as well the biochemical processes that integrated them into cells to give us fully functional noetic cognizant complex beings without direct human manipulation with retrovirus or vectors!

Isambitar you also speak of a vague 95% of scientists who 'believe' in evolution making several errors in the process.
1-is an appeal to authority.
2- failure to mention in which esteemed journal said study was conducted
3- failure to elucidate purpose of the study
4- failure in understanding how the study was conducted
5- failure to list the subjects as I am familiar with the much toted 'study' where folks such as computer programmers fall Therein
6- failure to acknowledge that science isn't about 'beliefs' if evolution were a fact it wouldn't fall under 'theory' which in fact according to Mustafa who unlike you is an actual scientist and not a net rookie peddling in recycled rhetoric with ambiguous sources and vague links from which we're to conclude as we may and tweak the meaning as per your whims falls under the title of a hypothesis and an ailing one at that!
Isambitar,
7- you've also failed to acknowledge the other vague studies which conclude that the majority of those holding doctorate believe in God!

According to a recent study most doctors believe in God and an afterlife. This conclusion apparently contradicts earlier research which showed that in general, people tend to become less religious as education and income levels rise.

The survey by Farr Curlin, a doctor and instructor at the University of Chicago, of 1,125 U.S. doctors, found that 76 percent believe in God and nearly 60 percent in some sort of afterlife.
Curlin, who oversaw the survey, says he was surprised, as the team did not realize physicians were this religious.
He says they suspect that people who combine an aptitude for science with an interest in religion and an affinity for public service are particularly attracted to medicine, as the responsibility to care for those who are suffering, and the rewards of helping those in need, resonate throughout most religious traditions.
The researchers also found that 90 percent of doctors said they attend religious services at least occasionally, and are more likely to describe themselves as 'spiritual' as distinct from religious, whereas for the general population, spirituality and religion appear to be more tightly connected.
They found that doctors and patients also differ on how they rely on God for help in coping with a major illness, as while most patients will look to God for strength, support and guidance, most doctors will instead try to make sense of the situation and decide what to do without relying on God.
Of the doctors surveyed, 5 percent were Hindu, 2 percent Muslim and 1 percent Buddhist, all much higher than those faiths are represented in the general population and in part reflecting the large number of foreign-born doctors who emigrate to the United States, the study said.
The report is published in the Journal of General Internal Medicine


or:
About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do....Varrying by dicipline (Psychology, biology, nano, etc.)...Many scientists see themselves as having a spirituality not attached to a particular religious tradition. "
Source(s): http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/0…

I'd hate to see another mindless troll gain so much attention by piggy back riding on the 'scientific community without understanding its intricacies!

You claim people shouldn't force their beliefs down someone else's throat will isam isn't that exactly what you're doing here? After all who is forcing you to write on a religious forum?

Isambard/bitar the belief in God is the nature of man so tell us the scientific studies you're so apt at misusing so in fact hedonistic secularism 'a belief in and of itself' is the odd guy out, the one that should be outlawed for it's lawlessness and self governing existence ..

Isambard/bitar perhaps you can do us the grand favor or proving 'speciation through evolution' by means you earlier referenced without the need for ambiguity, after all if you truly understand something then you should be able to discuss it with ease!

try it from the laws of probability & experimental physics like so:
http://www.iscid.org/papers/Mullan_P...ell_112302.pdf

http://arxiv.org/ftp/q-bio/papers/0603/0603005.pdf
I'll be waiting

oh & one more thing:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_974116.html

A majority of scientists say religion and science don't always conflict, according to new survey results released by Rice University.
The study, conducted over five years through in-depth interviews with scientists at universities whose fields range from biology and chemistry to social sciences like political science and economics, dispels the widely held notion that religion and science are incompatible.


So perhaps dear Isam when you question how God fits in? you should cite an army of one? You seem to be solitary in your convictions! .. oh I forgot you got our famed atheist with his English degree to jump on your bandwagon.. & what desperado wouldn't?

Go dear Isam find a cure for lysosomal storage dz. figure out how Huntington or Fragile X escaped 'Natural Selection' find a cure for the common cold.. but don't strain yourself to come up with a non-Q.. there's nothing quite as bad as being a pseudo intellect & proud of it!

best

format_quote Originally Posted by IsamBitar

Oh, yeah. Primate ERVs do not confirm evolution.

Go ahead & elaborate on that with other than an eloquent 'oh yeah'

Chromosomal fusion does not confirm evolution.

Chromosomal fusions, acrocentric breaks & translocations have given us everything from Leukemia to down syndrome but not a different species!

Evolution before our very own eyes does not confirm evolution.

what is evolving before our very eyes? do you know the difference between Macro & micro evolution? or just apt @ misusing terms?

Mitochondrial DNA does not confirm evolution.

How does Mitochondrial DNA confirm evolution? Mitochondrial DNA has given us such dz. qs Leber's hereditary optic neuropathy but not primates to human!

Transitional fossils do not confirm evolution. Way to be current..

I am just dying to see those transitional fossils..

scientific

format_quote Originally Posted by IsamBitar

Children should be brought up secularly, and then given the choice whether to adhere to their parents' religion or not.

do they get the choice of whether to adhere to the rules of corrupt politicians who no longer represent the wishes of the people?
or are they indoctrinated to obey the politicians?

Yet they take (for worship) gods other than Allah, (hoping) that they might be helped!
They have not the power to help them: but they are a troop presented before them.
Quran 36:74-75

format_quote Originally Posted by IsamBitar

The worst criminal ever to walk the earth only committed finite crimes. To award this with infinite torture is just unfair.

i've heard of people getting things like 50 life sentences, that's their eternal life on earth + more.

Ugh how did I know the usual the Atheist arguments would come out; but the least you could have done is to read up on the religion you were trying to discredit (as you've shown earlier in the thread - you fail to understand the basics).

format_quote Originally Posted by IsamBitar

And what if we're both wrong? How do you know it is your religion that is true and your god that is real? It could be just any of the other religions out there. In fact, it could be a religion yet to be revealed, as every religion was unknown to the people before it, including Islam.

Actually, Islam was known from the start.

format_quote Originally Posted by IsamBitar

If we're to play the "I don't know, but what if I'm right?" game, then there are countless possibilities that are equally possible (or impossible). Including non-divine ideas like, what if our lives are just a dream in an alien's head who sleeps for decades? Or what if we're trapped into a hallucinatory delusion that we can't get out of? What if we're hard-wired into a virtual reality game and the only way out is if we embrace reason, or stay trapped inside forever? There is no winner in this betting game. So, why choose one over the other?

Because only one answer is correct. You are free to believe in your what if's, but others have weighed up the options and found the truth. Why does it bother you so much what others choose? Your initial question was answered much earlier but you seem to want to force your view on others.

format_quote Originally Posted by IsamBitar

Just because you were born to parents who adhere to that religion?

Many Muslims on here have reverted to Islam, including at least one person you're debating with on this thread.

format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000

i've heard of people getting things like 50 life sentences, that's their eternal life on earth + more.

This is so true, life in prison is punishment until death. Also atheists don't believe in an afterlife therefore the death penalty would also be an infinite punishment for a finite crime.

format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000

do they get the choice of whether to adhere to the rules of corrupt politicians who no longer represent the wishes of the people?
or are they indoctrinated to obey the politicians?

Developmental psychologists have provided evidence that children are naturally tuned to believe in gods of one sort or another.
• Children tend to see natural objects as designed or purposeful in ways that go beyond what their parents teach, as Deborah Kelemen has demonstrated. Rivers exist so that we can go fishing on them, and birds are here to look pretty.
• Children doubt that impersonal processes can create order or purpose. Studies with children show that they expect that someone not something is behind natural order. No wonder that Margaret Evans found that children younger than 10 favoured creationist accounts of the origins of animals over evolutionary accounts even when their parents and teachers endorsed evolution. Authorities' testimony didn't carry enough weight to over-ride a natural tendency.
• Children know humans are not behind the order so the idea of a creating god (or gods) makes sense to them. Children just need adults to specify which one.

http://www.bu.edu/psych/faculty/kelemen/



believing in God is fitrah .. our natural inclination.. if only atheists went to school & studied the science they like to worship but not quite sure of its machination.. atheists & vegetarian from experience are a most zealot, most vocal & a most ignorant bunch.. @ least those of them that forum hop, they do their entire clan a terrible injustice the minute they open that bazoo

^ well explained sis, i watched both versions of brave new world, a book written in then 1930s predicting much of what is happening today,
also in the book - the people are made to believe that the ruling elite (our Honourable Ford) makes everything work, since the ruling elite are aware that people will give authority to someone whom they look to as creator.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gxDNmrJ65A

they do that in orwell's 1984 too, the party made everything.

format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless

This is so true, life in prison is punishment until death. Also atheists don't believe in an afterlife therefore the death penalty would also be an infinite punishment for a finite crime.

How is the crime finite when the victim is also 'gone forever'?