This topic came from the 'Wake Up Project' forum by Leopraecordia. There is a Hadith;
"Gog and Magog will say, ‘We have defeated the people of earth, and overcome the people of Heaven.’ Then Allah will send a kind of worm in the napes of their necks, and they will be killed by it…" (Reported by At-Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, and Ahmad)
And a few days ago there was news;
"Protein Sciences Corporation (PSC), explains that Flublok is produced by extracting cells from the fall armyworm, a type of caterpillar, and genetically altering them to produce large amounts of hemagglutinin" (from naturalnews.com)
They are using Genetically Modified caterpillar cells to produce the vaccine. Could this be why there would be worms eating the neck of the Yakjuj wa Makjuj?
Romans - ar-rum, litteraly arabic translation, romans are europeans.
So it's a racial term, not a political/state identity? I have no Arabic to test that although google translate does not give the same word for 'European' and 'Roman' (I accept google translate is hit and miss).
In that case, what word do Arabs use for 'Roman' as in the state, not the race?
format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
Arabs are Arabs, they always lived there.
Up to a point - probably all people are invaders/immigrants if you go back far enough.
format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
Turkey belongs to them, because turkey belonged to them in past, hence it is in NATO. Interesting isnt it?
So did Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and the whole of North Africa, but they don't now. (Nor does Turkey 'belong' to the west, but that's another matter.)
You see, this is the problem, syed. I'm approaching this matter as a legitimate issue of historical inquiry and scriptural exegesis. You seem to be approaching it solely to engage in that time-old, yet anything but time-honored, practice of using subjects like eschatology and Gog and Magog an excuse to indulge your conspiracy theories and that perennial human habit of insisting on seeing signs everywhere that Judgment Day is probably nigh in your own age. The proof is all there if you go through my posts and link it all up for yourself and I'm not going to spell it all out for you again just because you hate Zionism or the perceived corruptions of the modern age too much to accept it. As we're talking about a nomadic Scythian tribe that probably moved all over Asia and human ancestry in general is complicated and untraceable in large groups over centuries there could be descendants of the Tapuri anywhere. All over Europe. In Yemen (according to Google, anyway). Still in Russia. Because a shrine to Gog and Magog was found in England they could have ended up in Australia. In America. In the Bahamas, in India, Hong Kong. Or stayed in Great Britain. Or gone to Northern Ireland. Maybe they're in Turkey due to the Goth connection. Before you seize on the "America" part I'm from America and I'm a Muslim. I've known so many decent people here I couldn't name them all if given a piece of paper and unlimited time to write down all the names. You see the problem? Maybe it's just best not to talk about Gog and Magog in the first place. Look what happens when people do. There will never be an excuse to point fingers at huge groups, even unto the world's last sunset. Judgment Day will come exactly when it must, and there's no way anyone can be prepared for such a thing--except by being pious.
So it's a racial term, not a political/state identity? I have no Arabic to test that although google translate does not give the same word for 'European' and 'Roman' (I accept google translate is hit and miss).
In that case, what word do Arabs use for 'Roman' as in the state, not the race?
I think the arabs refer it both to the state and the people, when the byzantine empire still occupied the lands of as-sham (The greater syria) the arabs still referred to them as ar-rum. I have not much knowledge of the arabic, since i am an european convert to islam myself, so cant talk much relating to this subject. I need to find a lecture for you from someone who is studied in this matter, or confirmation from an Arabic speaking person.
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Up to a point - probably all people are invaders/immigrants if you go back far enough.
I cant answer that.
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
So did Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and the whole of North Africa, but they don't now. (Nor does Turkey 'belong' to the west, but that's another matter.)
This also another matter to be explained, its a difficult thing to talk about this subject. And if we discuss further we might derail this thread.
Last edited by Jedi_Mindset; 02-19-2013 at 03:16 PM.
http://www.youtube.com/user/robinb4life?feature=mhee
I will not calm down until I will put one cheek of a tyrant on the ground and the other under my feet, and for the poor and weak, I will put my cheek on the ground. - Umar ibn khattab(Ra)
The thread has been hopelessly derailed from the very beginning. Actually, to be honest, I kind of started that ball rolling myself but I had no idea it would spiral out of control like this. Am I the only person who still remembers we were supposed to be talking about a scientific project involving microscoping worms?
The thread has been hopelessly derailed from the very beginning.
I just got back from KSA, and found '666' written on the floor in Al-Haram mosque in the narrow temporary walkway to the As-Safaa and Al-Marwa Sa'ie area but that is another topic Thanks to everyone here i have learned a lot more than i expected from your posts even though this thread has gone way off the original topic. Before this i believed as Sheikh Imran Hossein does, and never considered the Vikings. Though i have read somewhere before that the Vikings came from the same area as the Khazar a long long time ago (It would take a while for me to find the reference again). They have the same ancestry so both hypothesis could be right. Also since theres a Hadith saying 999 out of a thousand will go to hell and most of them are Gog and Magog, i believe that those who emulate the real Gog and Magog are also considered part of the Gog and Magog. Allah and His Messenger knows best.
To update on the original topic, it is not any just any cell that they used from the 'army worm';
Flublok uses cells taken from the ovaries of fall armyworms in the pupal stage to crank out its active ingredient
They used the ovary cells! Quoted from a report on www npr org. (I'm not allowed to post links yet)
I note also that the Arabs referred to the Crusaders as 'Franj' (ie Franks) and not 'ar rum'.
Yes they referred to the Crusaders as franks, but it was also used to refer to western Europeans at large. Like wise at the time of the Prophet(pbuh) Europeans were referred to as Romans, since Rome ruled most of Europe. An example of this is the prominent companion of the Prophet(pbuh) Suhayb ar-Rumi (Suhayb the Roman). He was actually an Arab who as a child grew up in Rome as a slave.
So the term was used to refer to the two empires, both Constantinople and Rome as well as all those who were under those empires, or even to those who were affiliated with them such as the Arab-Christians of ash-Sham.
So the term was used to refer to the two empires, both Constantinople and Rome as well as all those who were under those empires, or even to those who were affiliated with them such as the Arab-Christians of ash-Sham.
If 'Roman' can be both a political and an ethnic (or possibly geographical) term, then it just adds to the confusion. Half the people who were once Roman are now designated as Muslim Arabs, Turks etc - because most of the old Byzantine Empire was conquered permanently by the Muslims. Although these people adopted Islam as well as Arabic language and culture, they are still mostly descendants of the same people who once called themselves Roman.
In the west of Europe, from a political point of view there is an absolute break between the old Roman Empire and any of the states that now exist. Again, many of the population are descended from people who once called themselves Roman, intermingled with waves of barbarian invaders.
Surely it is meaningless to think of today's population as 'Roman' and try to see a continuity or parallel with what that term meant in Muhammad's day. Half of these notional 'Romans' are now called 'Arabs'.
If 'Roman' can be both a political and an ethnic (or possibly geographical) term, then it just adds to the confusion. Half the people who were once Roman are now designated as Muslim Arabs, Turks etc - because most of the old Byzantine Empire was conquered permanently by the Muslims. Although these people adopted Islam as well as Arabic language and culture, they are still mostly descendants of the same people who once called themselves Roman.
In the west of Europe, from a political point of view there is an absolute break between the old Roman Empire and any of the states that now exist. Again, many of the population are descended from people who once called themselves Roman, intermingled with waves of barbarian invaders.
Surely it is meaningless to think of today's population as 'Roman' and try to see a continuity or parallel with what that term meant in Muhammad's day. Half of these notional 'Romans' are now called 'Arabs'.
There is no confusion here. As was already pointed out, a Roman to the Arabs of the Hijaz and the arabian peninsula at the time of the Prophet(pbuh) was used to refer to the Europeans as well as those who were affiliated with them. you said, 'half of the people who were once Roman are now Muslim arabs, turks'. that is not true. The Arabs who now live in greater Sham and north africa were not living there during the time Rome ruled these lands, nor were the Turks living in what is now Turkey.
The People who ruled both of the Roman empires were from Europe, and their languages were European. There might have been few 'Romanized' Arabs but they still kept their Arab identity, the only 'roman' thing about them was probably their language, and their version of Christianity.
you said, 'half of the people who were once Roman are now Muslim arabs, turks'. that is not true
There is much dispute about the extent to which invaders eliminate and replace populations, or whether they create a ruling class and simply absorb (or are absorbed by) the existing population.
In the case of the Muslim invasions, the balance of probability has to come down on the side of the existing population staying where they are, but now with a new identity and (eventually) Arab language and culture. This is especially likely because the original Arab invaders were simply not numerous enough to replace the existing populations. (Also, from what i have read, Muslim historians like to stress peaceful conversion and adaption, not destruction and displacement.) So it makes sense to regard today's populations in the Middle East and North Africa as being to a large extent the descendants of people who once called themselves Roman.
Obviously we're talking about a wide area and in some parts there were further waves of settlement and invasion (eg the Turkic tribes). But in Syria and across North Africa, it's likely that the old 'Romans' are now 'Arabs'. Of course, before they were Roman they were something else again, but that's another story.
As we're talking about a nomadic Scythian tribe that probably moved all over Asia and human ancestry in general is complicated and untraceable in large groups over centuries there could be descendants of the Tapuri anywhere. All over Europe. In Yemen (according to Google, anyway). Still in Russia. Because a shrine to Gog and Magog was found in England they could have ended up in Australia. In America. In the Bahamas, in India, Hong Kong. Or stayed in Great Britain. Or gone to Northern Ireland. Maybe they're in Turkey due to the Goth connection.
I think We will have a problem once we try to find the worms eating neck disease somewhere in Bangladesh or Somalia will you then believe based on this finding that they are Gog and Magog ?.... even though that people of that country might have been diseased by the poverty spread due to corruption of their leaders installed and fully backed by Western countries and enslaved due to heavy IMF World Bank interest based loans ?
If that's your criteria to find Gog and Magog then best of luck. I have no arguments with you.
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Before you seize on the "America" part I'm from America and I'm a Muslim. I've known so many decent people here I couldn't name them all if given a piece of paper and unlimited time to write down all the names. You see the problem? Maybe it's just best not to talk about Gog and Magog in the first place. Look what happens when people do. There will never be an excuse to point fingers at huge groups, even unto the world's last sunset.
Brother thats the problem I see you have, you're an American 1st and then a Muslim.... I am a Muslim 1st and then a Pakistani....so if Pakistanis do something wrong, I will not support that and that's how It should be.
If Zionist Jews with their Banking Industry (IMF, World Bank, Fed Res) are in an unholy alliance with Zionist Christian Leaders like Reagan, George Bush (A freemason) and Mellenialists in NATO and USA Armies, and are wreaking havoc across the world in general and MENA region in particular.... then we Must accept it whether we are American or no. Its not that I am pointing fingers for no reason, as you have mentioned...
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
You seem to be approaching it solely to engage in that time-old, yet anything but time-honored, practice of using subjects like eschatology and Gog and Magog an excuse to indulge your conspiracy theories and that perennial human habit of insisting on seeing signs everywhere that Judgment Day is probably nigh in your own age.
Since you are a Muslim , then I would like to inform you what a Muslim is supposed to do when he/she enters the Last Age and what the Prophet (saw) himself informed us to do exactly when that last age approaches....
"...The day that some of the Signs of your Lord do come( i.e. Gog and Magog, Dajjal, Beast of the Earth, Sun rising from the West), no good will it do to a person to believe then, if he believed not before, nor earned good (by performing deeds of righteousness) through his Faith..." [al-An'aam (6):158]
Pick up any commentary and Praise be to Allah (swt) All commentaries about this Verse mention the Prophet (saw) himself reciting this Verse whenever He spoke about any major signs of the last days, for eg. Gog and Magog or Dajjal etc.
He recited this Verse not for the sake of Just recitation, but to remind the Muslims of that age to relay his words to the Muslims of every generation to study the subject of Eschatology so that we are warned, and look for those signs in order to save ourselves, keep away from harms, hold on to our Iman and work accordingly in that age knowing our enemies who they are....
As a Muslim we're supposed to identify our enemies and if they have appeared in the face of Zionism then we have to admit and warn others who have not understood. The age of Dajjal is the worst...
Prophet (saw) said...
"Between time of the creation of Adam and the Resurrection Day, there is nothing greater than the mischief of Dajjal (the Antichrist).''
[Muslim Book 41,Chapter 23, Hadith # 7037]
...it is during the Age of Dajjal that Gog and Magog will take over the world order, Jesus (a.s) will descend and other signs etc.
Not supririsngly whenever you try to understand the subject of Gog and Magog in the Quran or the Traditions of the Prophet (saw), only one city and land is mentioned with their rising to power in the world, and that is the Land of Israel.
So you take out Zionist Israel and its Western allies particularly USA and Britain and study the subject of Gog and Magog in isolation..... then you would be like the following person...
Who wants to study subject of Satan, because you have read little about him or paid little attention to him in Islam and then try and read every book on earth to gather and read about Satan and get confused with all of this information going no where or worst getting misguided, especially when there have been interpolations made in all the other divinely revealed books....while all you had to to do was make Islam the criteria of right and wrong and try to understand accordingly....
To the original poster I am sorry If the topic has been derailed because of me, I wanted to make it clear as to who are the actual descndants of Gog and Magog in the modern age amongst the ruling elite ... so what we've discussed so far was also important before we move ahead.....
About the disease I have little information which InshA'Allah which I would also share.
Brother thats the problem I see you have, you're an American 1st and then a Muslim.... I am a Muslim 1st and then a Pakistani....so if Pakistanis do something wrong, I will not support that and that's how It should be.
I beg your pardon?!
I will give you one chance, and one chance only, to explain yourself. Because it sounds an awful lot like you think I am a part of Gog and Magog, even though I'm a Muslim, just because I happen to live within certain imaginary lines, and anyone who happens to be a citizen of certain countries automatically supports anything their leaders do all the time. I'm willing to believe you're not an anti-Semite but I'm still having to desperately hold out hope that you're not an ethnocentric. Americans get quite a lot of that, you must understand. All I was saying is that there are decent people in every country in the world.
Nothing comes before Islam for me. Do you hear me? Have I made myself clear??
I will give you one chance, and one chance only, to explain yourself. Because it sounds an awful lot like you think I am a part of Gog and Magog, even though I'm a Muslim, just because I happen to live within certain imaginary lines, and anyone who happens to be a citizen of certain countries automatically supports anything their leaders do all the time.
I was just telling you not to get offended if i am talking about what USA govt in its support of Zionism is doing in the Middle East.... i never said your part of Gog and Magog.... please don't take it that way.... i never said that.
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Americans get quite a lot of that, you must understand. All I was saying is that there are decent people in every country in the world.
I would be doing injustice if I start blaming each and every citizen of USA/ West in general for the wars and corruption being spread around the world..... and I am NOT blaming each and every person.... I never said that each and every American is bad....
All I was trying to make you realize was that you fail to notice who Gog and Magog are in this age of our, when they have become most powerful and your studying the subject would be of no use if you just study from historical perspective.
I understand now. But you must understand that Qur'an 21:96 and 7:187 make it clear that nobody is going to be capable of being prepared for Gog and Magog anyway, whoever they are, when they strike. They'll be too many of them to handle, they will apparently be coming upon us suddenly, and Judgment Day "will not come to you except unexpectedly". Gog and Magog will "swoop down from every mound", which apparently refers to the old trope of the cavalry charge coming up over the hill at the last minute or something. In other words the whole world will be their battlefield and they'll strike all at once and be free to send reinforcements to pretty much anywhere. I ask you, does it matter very much who these people are exactly? What matters is if your soul is ready--whether for that or for dying before it can happen--not what the political beliefs of your next door neighbor may be. Is it?
Syed_Z has a point when he mentions the "criteria" for determining who gog and magog are according to the disease (worms).
One thing that HAS to be mentioned here is that, these worms will not burrow into the necks of gog and magog until the Muslims are trapped on the mount with Isa AS and surrounded by hoards of gog and magog.
And we do know one thing. It is Isa AS who will make a dua to Allah and thus Allah will cause the worms to kill the G&M. Digging any deeper into the disease is a little futile imo.
"will not come to you except unexpectedly". Gog and Magog will "swoop down from every mound", which apparently refers to the old trope of the cavalry charge coming up over the hill at the last minute or something.
If Dajjal's 'donkey' which has a a distance of 40 feet or cubits (im not sure) between its ears refers symbolically to an airplane in our age, which obviously makes sense, then I don't think that 'swooping down from every mound' is old method of cavalry charge being referred to... I believe it means that they would reach the acme of their power around the world and control the world through globalization and spread corruption in all aspects of global societies, whether economic, social, family, educational thus 'swooping down from every mound'...
Poet and Islamic Scholar said these words about Yajuj Majuj based on 21:96...
Khul ga’ay Ya’jūj aur Ma’jūj kay lashkar tamām,
Chashmay Muslim dekh lay tafsīray harfay yansilūn!
“Set loose are all the hordes of Gog and Magog;
To the Muslim eye manifest is the meaning of the word yansilūn”
Tamaam in my language means All....
Iqbal believed that all the hordes are already loose and have reached their acme of power which they were divinely decreed by Allah (swt) to reach in the last Age..
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
In other words the whole world will be their battlefield and they'll strike all at once and be free to send reinforcements to pretty much anywhere.
Also if Prophet (saw) said in a Hadith that ...
“People would continue to perform the Hajj and ‘Umrah even after the release of Gog and Magog” (sahih bukhari)
So Muslims will be going about their daily lives, even though with corruption widespread in their societies, so the whole world will not be a battle field when they will all be release.... yet a final crash between them will take place.... but since the hadith mentions that people would continue to perform hajj and umrah which they are still doing.... that could probably mean the the final crash making the large part of earth their battle field between their Hordes has not take place and will take place in the near future i.e. in the face of Russia/China Vs USA/NATO ... which will drag their fight to a large extent in Middle East and cause the slaughter of Arabs...and abandonment of Hajj which is also a sign ...
Narrated Shu'ba extra: The Hour (i.e. Last Hour) will not be established till the Hajj (to the Ka'ba) is abandoned. (Bukhari)
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
I ask you, does it matter very much who these people are exactly? What matters is if your soul is ready--whether for that or for dying before it can happen--not what the political beliefs of your next door neighbor may be. Is it?
We Muslims have a duty to spread the word to the rest of mankind, also to understand better this subject well so at least we can explain this subject of Gog and Magog and the Fasad in the modern world because if Muslims can understand these 2 things and spread the word then the Non Muslims will know Islam is the truth as it is the only religion that explains the Modern age and Gog and Magog like no one else. This will cause them to accept Islam as well.
One thing that HAS to be mentioned here is that, these worms will not burrow into the necks of gog and magog until the Muslims are trapped on the mount with Isa AS and surrounded by hoards of gog and magog.
Salaam.... If that is so brother then the hadith mentions that they would not be affected by neck disease till they all are released and till Isa (a.s) prays against them from the mountain, but it also says that when they are loose ....
....The first of them will pass by Lake Tiberias (i.e. the Sea of Galilee) and drink out of it, and when the last of them passes, he will say: ‘There was once water here . . . .’” (muslim)
So if the water in Sea of Galilee is already drying up which is a fact, then that would mean Muslims should already be trapped in the mountain somewhere in Middle East or near Syria where Isa (a.s) will descend, and that hasn't happened yet because Muslims are every where still..... but the lake is drying up ?
So how would you reconcile this matter.
Btw the neck disease that I wanted to mention about is a Graves Disease that I found out a few years back when Arrivals was released that Barbara Bush has and even George Bush Snr has (whose occult name is Magog in case if you didn't kn0w in the illuminati circles) and this disease affects thyroid in the neck commonly....thats all information I have about neck disease causing them....I could very well be wrong but thats the only information I have about a 'neck disease' linked to 'gog and magog'....Allah (swt) knows best.
There is a video made about this Flublock vaccine on you tube. I can't post links but you can paste this after the youtube address to watch it
/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-Yu80scSsCA#!
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Thanks to everyone here i have learned a lot more than i expected from your posts even though this thread has gone way off the original topic. Before this i believed as Sheikh Imran Hossein does, and never considered the Vikings. Though i have read somewhere before that the Vikings came from the same area as the Khazar a long long time ago (It would take a while for me to find the reference again). They have the same ancestry so both hypothesis could be right. Also since theres a Hadith saying 999 out of a thousand will go to hell and most of them are Gog and Magog, i believe that those who emulate the real Gog and Magog are also considered part of the Gog and Magog. Allah and His Messenger knows best.
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