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  1. #1
    M.I.A.'s Avatar
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    science vs creationism

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    i missed the closing of the old thread, but since new posts will not make it to the update maybe the mods can overlook the new thread for a moment.

    imo

    muslims cant win the science vs creationism debate..

    and even if they did.. they could possibly be missing the point.

    and even if they did win, would it be just for the sake of winning.

    why?

    because your playing in sciences ball park.

    even if you could reconcile the proofs of science with your own religion, to make it work.

    at the end of a unified theory you would still have to turn around and say..


    the miracles of the prophets pbu them.. just would not fit the model.


    so its following a path that is ultimately not going to bring any new understanding or closeness to allah swt.

    ..or ultimately the real nature of all existence.


    i know nobody can reject the proofs of a material world.. universe.

    so its just an thought.

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    MustafaMc's Avatar
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    Re: science vs creationism

    I am not getting the point of this post. Science does a good job of explaining the physical world, but it is incapable of explaining or disproving the unseen world. Can science measure a single soul? Can science determine whether or not our essential nature continues to exist after we die, or do we completely cease to exist? Can it explain how the first living being came from its non-living elements? Can science explain in detail how each species of life evolved from a Common Ancestor?

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    Ahmad H's Avatar
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    Re: science vs creationism

    I agree with you M.I.A, the signs of Allah cannot be measured by scientific means. Allah's knowledge is not measurable, therefore the full effects of a miracle and its full significance is not something which should be graphed and scrutinized under a microscope.

    Science is about observing the seen, religion is about being in contact with the unseen and believing in it. The unseen aspect of Islam cannot be scrutinized scientifically because it is simply not observable. We know the unseen exists by inference. We know Allah exists, He gave us a Book, that Book explains what we should know. We believe in what the Book says. The only question we have to be sure of, is how certain are we of Allah's existence? A feeling is one thing, but this is why there are Prophets. They are our Imams, and an Imam is there for guidance. The Holy Prophet (saw) was the best Imam, and looking at his example is the best way to know of Allah's existence.
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    Muhaba's Avatar
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    Re: science vs creationism

    IMO scientists who promote evolution don't really have an argument. Atheist evolutionists are most of the time playing with words. It's not even right to discuss this topic with them (when you see they aren't listening) because they are blindly following their whims. Many of them don't believe, not because they have a valid reason not to, but because they don't want to. There are plenty of reasonable arguments that support the creationist view. In fact, everything around us points to a creator. Those who don't accept don't want to, not because it's shown otherwise.

    Instead of wasting our time and effort discussing evolution and science, it's better to present verses from the Quran. The Quran, being the WORD of God, speaks to the heart and soul, and even the most stubborn will be affected by it. We can't impose our views on others. But we can present the Word of God without engaging in any arguments.

    This was what the Final Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم had done. Once a Meccan idolator came to him to try to convince him to stop spreading the message of Islam. After listening to what the idolator said, the Prophet (SAW) didn't argue with him or tell him why his request was not acceptable. The Prophet (SAW) simply started reciting the verses of the Quran (I think it was Surah Taha) and this was enough to affect the kafir.

    We can present verses about the Signs of Allah around us or we can present verses about the Oneness of Allah or about the Hereafter.

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    Independent's Avatar
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    Re: science vs creationism

    “There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.”

    Charles Darwin, The Origin of the Species



    “We can allow satellites, planets, suns, universe, nay whole systems of universe, to be governed by laws, but the smallest insect, we wish to be created at once by special act.”

    Charles Darwin

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    Muhaba's Avatar
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    Re: science vs creationism

    In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
    [All] praise is [due] to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, [who] made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.
    Whatever Allah grants to people of mercy - none can withhold it; and whatever He withholds - none can release it thereafter. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
    O mankind, remember the favor of Allah upon you. Is there any creator other than Allah who provides for you from the heaven and earth? There is no deity except Him, so how are you deluded?
    And if they deny you, [O Muhammad] - already were messengers denied before you. And to Allah are returned [all] matters.
    O mankind, indeed the promise of Allah is truth, so let not the worldly life delude you and be not deceived about Allah by the Deceiver.
    Indeed, Satan is an enemy to you; so take him as an enemy. He only invites his party to be among the companions of the Blaze.
    Those who disbelieve will have a severe punishment, and those who believe and do righteous deeds will have forgiveness and great reward.
    Then is one to whom the evil of his deed has been made attractive so he considers it good [like one rightly guided]? For indeed, Allah sends astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. So do not let yourself perish over them in regret. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of what they do.
    And it is Allah who sends the winds, and they stir the clouds, and We drive them to a dead land and give life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness. Thus is the resurrection.
    Whoever desires honor [through power] - then to Allah belongs all honor. To Him ascends good speech, and righteous work raises it. But they who plot evil deeds will have a severe punishment, and the plotting of those - it will perish.
    And Allah created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop; then He made you mates. And no female conceives nor does she give birth except with His knowledge. And no aged person is granted [additional] life nor is his lifespan lessened but that it is in a register. Indeed, that for Allah is easy.
    And not alike are the two bodies of water. One is fresh and sweet, palatable for drinking, and one is salty and bitter. And from each you eat tender meat and extract ornaments which you wear, and you see the ships plowing through [them] that you might seek of His bounty; and perhaps you will be grateful.
    He causes the night to enter the day, and He causes the day to enter the night and has subjected the sun and the moon - each running [its course] for a specified term. That is Allah , your Lord; to Him belongs sovereignty. And those whom you invoke other than Him do not possess [as much as] the membrane of a date seed.
    If you invoke them, they do not hear your supplication; and if they heard, they would not respond to you. And on the Day of Resurrection they will deny your association. And none can inform you like [one] Acquainted [with all matters].
    O mankind, you are those in need of Allah , while Allah is the Free of need, the Praiseworthy.
    If He wills, He can do away with you and bring forth a new creation.
    And that is for Allah not difficult.
    And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And if a heavily laden soul calls [another] to [carry some of] its load, nothing of it will be carried, even if he should be a close relative. You can only warn those who fear their Lord unseen and have established prayer. And whoever purifies himself only purifies himself for [the benefit of] his soul. And to Allah is the [final] destination.
    Not equal are the blind and the seeing,
    Nor are the darknesses and the light,
    Nor are the shade and the heat,
    And not equal are the living and the dead. Indeed, Allah causes to hear whom He wills, but you cannot make hear those in the graves.
    You, [O Muhammad], are not but a warner.
    Indeed, We have sent you with the truth as a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And there was no nation but that there had passed within it a warner.
    And if they deny you - then already have those before them denied. Their messengers came to them with clear proofs and written ordinances and with the enlightening Scripture.
    Then I seized the ones who disbelieved, and how [terrible] was My reproach.
    Do you not see that Allah sends down rain from the sky, and We produce thereby fruits of varying colors? And in the mountains are tracts, white and red of varying shades and [some] extremely black.
    And among people and moving creatures and grazing livestock are various colors similarly. Only those fear Allah , from among His servants, who have knowledge. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Forgiving.
    Indeed, those who recite the Book of Allah and establish prayer and spend [in His cause] out of what We have provided them, secretly and publicly, [can] expect a profit that will never perish -
    That He may give them in full their rewards and increase for them of His bounty. Indeed, He is Forgiving and Appreciative.
    And that which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], of the Book is the truth, confirming what was before it. Indeed, Allah , of His servants, is Acquainted and Seeing.
    Then we caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself, and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allah . That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty.
    [For them are] gardens of perpetual residence which they will enter. They will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls, and their garments therein will be silk.
    And they will say, "Praise to Allah , who has removed from us [all] sorrow. Indeed, our Lord is Forgiving and Appreciative -
    He who has settled us in the home of duration out of His bounty. There touches us not in it any fatigue, and there touches us not in it weariness [of mind]."
    And for those who disbelieve will be the fire of Hell. [Death] is not decreed for them so they may die, nor will its torment be lightened for them. Thus do we recompense every ungrateful one.
    And they will cry out therein, "Our Lord, remove us; we will do righteousness - other than what we were doing!" But did We not grant you life enough for whoever would remember therein to remember, and the warner had come to you? So taste [the punishment], for there is not for the wrongdoers any helper.
    Indeed, Allah is Knower of the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and earth. Indeed, He is Knowing of that within the breasts.
    It is He who has made you successors upon the earth. And whoever disbelieves - upon him will be [the consequence of] his disbelief. And the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them in the sight of their Lord except in hatred; and the disbelief of the disbelievers does not increase them except in loss.
    Say, "Have you considered your 'partners' whom you invoke besides Allah ? Show me what they have created from the earth, or have they partnership [with Him] in the heavens? Or have We given them a book so they are [standing] on evidence therefrom? [No], rather, the wrongdoers do not promise each other except delusion."
    Indeed, Allah holds the heavens and the earth, lest they cease. And if they should cease, no one could hold them [in place] after Him. Indeed, He is Forbearing and Forgiving.
    And they swore by Allah their strongest oaths that if a warner came to them, they would be more guided than [any] one of the [previous] nations. But when a warner came to them, it did not increase them except in aversion.
    [Due to] arrogance in the land and plotting of evil; but the evil plot does not encompass except its own people. Then do they await except the way of the former peoples? But you will never find in the way of Allah any change, and you will never find in the way of Allah any alteration.
    Have they not traveled through the land and observed how was the end of those before them? And they were greater than them in power. But Allah is not to be caused failure by anything in the heavens or on the earth. Indeed, He is ever Knowing and Competent.
    And if Allah were to impose blame on the people for what they have earned, He would not leave upon the earth any creature. But He defers them for a specified term. And when their time comes, then indeed Allah has ever been, of His servants, Seeing.
    (Quran, Chapter 35, http://www.quran.com )

  9. #7
    Mahir Adnan's Avatar
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    Re: science vs creationism

    this is why Richard Dawkins ran away from harun yahya.
    It is greater for a thing to exist in the mind and in reality than in the mind alone.
    "God" means "that than which a greater cannot be thought."
    Suppose that God exists in the mind but not in reality.
    Then a greater than God could be thought (namely, a being that has all the qualities our thought of God has plus real existence).
    But this is impossible, for God is "that than which a greater cannot be thought."
    Therefore God exists in the mind and in reality.
    --
    The expression "that being than which a greater cannot be thought" (GCB, for short) expresses a consistent concept.
    GCB cannot be thought of as: a. necessarily nonexistent; or as b. contingently existing but only as c. necessarily existing.
    So GCB can only be thought of as the kind of being that cannot not exist, that must exist.
    But what must be so is so.
    Therefore, GCB (i.e., God) exists.
    -
    1960 the Princeton physicist – and subsequent Nobel Prize winner – Eugene Wigner raised a fundamental question: Why did the natural world always – so far as we know – obey laws of mathematics?
    -
    workings of human consciousness are similarly miraculous. Like the laws of mathematics, consciousness has no physical presence in the world; the images and thoughts in our consciousness have no measurable dimensions.

    Yet, our nonphysical thoughts somehow mysteriously guide the actions of our physical human bodies. This is no more scientifically explicable than the mysterious ability of nonphysical mathematical constructions to determine the workings of a separate physical world.

    Until recently, the scientifically unfathomable quality of human consciousness inhibited the very scholarly discussion of the subject. Since the 1970s, however, it has become a leading area of inquiry among philosophers.

    Recognizing that he could not reconcile his own scientific materialism with the existence of a nonphysical world of human consciousness, a leading atheist, Daniel Dennett, in 1991 took the radical step of denying that consciousness even exists.
    DNA of Human and chimpanzee

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