PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix wel (OP)
Here is an article that shows a clear example of what happens when people try to take religious texts very literally and apply it to the laws of nature. It doesn't work! It leads to wacky ideas that have long since been proven to be false such as that the earth is flat, that it is young (a few thousands of years old), that it is immobile and fixed at the center of the universe, that the stars are mere ornaments in the sky, and so on and so forth...
http://gulfnews.com/opinion/thinkers...flat-1.2009202
"Last week, a huge scandal rocked the Tunisian and Arab scientific and educational world: a PhD student submitted a thesis declaring Earth to be flat, unmoving, young (only 13,500 years of age), and the centre of the universe..."
Please can we stay on topic. This thread went off on a very strange tangent discussing conspiracy theories etc.
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
The person in question would not have believed that the Earth was flat (and the other weird theories she had) if it weren't for her religious views.
With regards to the claims about this PhD thesis, we need to verify before making any conclusions about it. It seems only six pages of it have been posted online here: https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/vi...1/9-st1608-011
The title of it reads: The Geocentric Model of the Earth: Physics and Astronomy Arguments.
The abstract reads, 'Several astronomical observations have shown the presence of numerous failings in heliocentric model such as Mercury retrograde motion, cosmic rays and Perseids meteors. Numerous researchers are talking about these topics. Because there is no empirical evidence that the Earth actually orbits the sun, astronomy observationsl geophysics arguments provide proofs for the steady Earth and the Sun's motion. The main contention of the paper is to demonstrate the flaws in gravity and relativity, and to disprove the alleged motions of the earth that for so long time has been unjustifiably taught.'
And the conclusion for this segment reads: In conclusion various physics arguments and astronomy observations show the stability of the Earth in the universe and the sun, the moon, the stars and the planets motion around it. Then the heliocentric model must to be rejected. On the contrary, the revision of the geocentric model will be necessary. Consequently, the Sun revolves around Earth daily in 23h 56min 4.1Second from East to West.
The above part of the paper is focused on scientific arguments. It is possible the author mentions her religious views in other parts of her paper. However, it is difficult to make a judgement on her intentions and views without verifying from the actual source. There is no need to make a blanket statement about religion and science.
As Muslims, we believe in whatever Allaah سبحانه وتعالى has revealed in His Book and the teachings of His Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. He is the Creator of this universe, so He knows more about it than Einstein, Newton, Galileo or anyone else. He سبحانه وتعالى has created the stars as a beautification for the nearest heaven, as missiles to be thrown at devils and as signs by which people can be guided. There is nothing 'whacky' about this and nothing which contradicts logic or science.
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
Funny that you think that agnosticism is "the most dangerous form of them all", as I have always found blind faith to be "the most dangerous form of them all".
I fail to see how I am spreading propaganda and you not. I am arguing that blind faith to the point of denying obvious things and clear scientific evidence is wrong. I have given an example to illustrate my point. All you have given me so far as counter-arguments are threats of "Judgement Day" and accusations that I have personal issues.
"Doubt", to the contrary, is essential in preventing unscrupulous people from advancing BS scientific theories, BS politics, and other forms of BS. Someone who doubts is someone who thinks and questions themselves, their beliefs, and others. Everyone should have a healthy level of "doubt" or "skepticism" to be functional, otherwise one would believe the first fool who comes around and claims to be a prophet.
When you have valid arguments to make rather than pouring out your bleeding heart at me, please come back and try again... with real arguments.
Thank you and peace.
You lack A LOT OF pondering on philosophical level. The person who blindly follows is not even the most dangerous form. Based on what? The person who follows blindly, is NOT using the mind. This individual(s) can be thought to THINK..to use logic, rationality and reason. They can be guided so to say by somebody who can teach them to not follow a blind way of following.
The dangerous thing of agnosticism is they use their mind, but still they cannot derive on the true, because they DOUBT ON EVERYTHING. A atheism if you ask me is even much better place than agnosticism, because they at least are FIRM in their believe of evolution theory. The only thing that needs to be done is have a intellectual debate and they might slowly do agree with you. With agnostics..doubt this..doubt that..they are not firm in anything when it comes to religious debate.
So there is a REASON why i say agnosticism is the MOST dangerous state to be on. They follow the way of atheists, as they do not follow any religious teachings so based on actions they are no different compared to an atheist.
So you see, you are rather have a very shallow constructed view (no offense) based on what is the most dangerous state of them all. With you it doesn't matter how many people will come to you and how educated they are or good at explaining with how many proof..you are in a state of doubt.
The people that i get the MOST annoyed by are people with your mentality. They doubt something, you proof to them, but their doubt NEVER go away. From thing 1 they go thing 2, from thing 3 they go thin 4 if they of all of those things get a logic, rational and reasonable answer..still there is a doubt and they keep doubting and doubting. I honestly fear for you that you end up dying in this state.
Because i have found no way how to get people who are agnostics to get them out of that state. From atheists you can have a very 1+1=2 debate/dicussion so to say, but people who are agnostics will rely like..but "WHAT IF in some dimension 1+1 = 3?" This "WHAT IF" is killing me when trying to have a discussion based on logic, rationality and reason.
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
The title of it reads: The Geocentric Model of the Earth: Physics and Astronomy Arguments.
The abstract reads, 'Several astronomical observations have shown the presence of numerous failings in heliocentric model such as Mercury retrograde motion, cosmic rays and Perseids meteors. Numerous researchers are talking about these topics. Because there is no empirical evidence that the Earth actually orbits the sun, astronomy observationsl geophysics arguments provide proofs for the steady Earth and the Sun's motion. The main contention of the paper is to demonstrate the flaws in gravity and relativity, and to disprove the alleged motions of the earth that for so long time has been unjustifiably taught.'
And the conclusion for this segment reads: In conclusion various physics arguments and astronomy observations show the stability of the Earth in the universe and the sun, the moon, the stars and the planets motion around it. Then the heliocentric model must to be rejected. On the contrary, the revision of the geocentric model will be necessary. Consequently, the Sun revolves around Earth daily in 23h 56min 4.1Second from East to West.
The above part of the paper is focused on scientific arguments. It is possible the author mentions her religious views in other parts of her paper. However, it is difficult to make a judgement on her intentions and views without verifying from the actual source. There is no need to make a blanket statement about religion and science.
As Muslims, we believe in whatever Allaah سبحانه وتعالى has revealed in His Book and the teachings of His Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. He is the Creator of this universe, so He knows more about it than Einstein, Newton, Galileo or anyone else. He سبحانه وتعالى has created the stars as a beautification for the nearest heaven, as missiles to be thrown at devils and as signs by which people can be guided. There is nothing 'whacky' about this and nothing which contradicts logic or science.
But there are 1000's of problems with what she has written! How can you not see these problems? The heliocentric model does NOT fail. It is the geocentric model that completely fails to explain so many things. The Sun does NOT revolve around the Earth! It is the Earth that revolves around the Sun! Her conclusion is completely wrong. This is why the astrophysicist who read her PhD thesis was so upset that he posted an excerpt of her thesis online. It is pure BS and makes no sense! She says that there is no empirical evidence that the Earth orbits around the Sun! That is not true at all! How does she explain seasons? What she has written is NOT science. No serious person in a serious PhD program would be allowed to write and pass with such a thesis. Basically, what she is saying is that she is better than millions of scientists who have gathered tonnes evidence to prove the heliocentric model where the Earth orbits around the Sun.
Then she has the arrogance to write: "The main contention of the paper is to demonstrate the flaws in gravity and relativity, and to disprove the alleged motions of the earth that for so long time has been unjustifiably taught." So, she is basically saying here that she is better than the great scientists and that they were all fools. Of course the great Newtons and Einsteins of this world weren't perfect. Newton's theory of gravity was perfect until a few observations were made that couldn't be explained with Newton's theory of gravity, and then Einstein came along with his General Theory of Relativity, which was more complete than Newton's. Recently, gravitational waves have been observed for the first time. This is further proof of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity. One day, someone really smart will probably come along with a quantum theory of gravity which will be an even more accurate theory that will encompass and explain all the findings of Einstein's theory and more.
Come on! What were you guys all learning in school?
Last edited by fromelsewhere; 05-21-2017 at 05:48 PM.
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
But there are 1000's of problems with what she has written! How can you not see these problems?
I haven't made any judgement whether she is right or wrong. I'm simply pointing out the incorrect conclusion you've drawn from limited information. Have you actually read the online version of her work?
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
You lack A LOT OF pondering on philosophical level. The person who blindly follows is not even the most dangerous form. Based on what? The person who follows blindly, is NOT using the mind. This individual(s) can be thought to THINK..to use logic, rationality and reason. They can be guided so to say by somebody who can teach them to not follow a blind way of following.
There is no logic, rationality or reason with people who follow blindly... only threats of hell.
For your education, the theory of evolution does not necessarily come into conflict with religion. It is just a theory that explains how living creatures adapt to their environment with time. Proof of it can be found all the time with bacteria that are becoming more and more drug resistant with time, which is why we are always on the lookout for stronger and stronger antibiotics.
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
I haven't made any judgement whether she is right or wrong. I'm simply pointing out the incorrect conclusion you've drawn from limited information. Have you actually read the online version of her work?
I have read enough excerpts of what she has written to know with 100% certitude that she is wrong.
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
This thread though. I can't even.
When was the last time anyone here saw a rocket launch and delivery of an item into space (such as a satellite or supplies)?
here, let me show you:
If you skip to 10 minutes, you'll see the start of the launch and you'll see the rocket leave the earth's atmosphere. When it is in space, you can clearly see the earth's horizon and it is curved, like a sphere. Subhan Allah!
How many of you own a telescope? You can see other planets all by yourself without anyone having to tell you otherwise. All planets have a spherical shape, including the moon, which you can see every day with the naked eye. Does that look flat to anyone?
This thread reminds me of the movie "flat land" the movie lol. You guys should watch it
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
I have read enough excerpts of what she has written to know with 100% certitude that she is wrong.
I am referring to the actual work, not conjecture that's floating around the internet. If you have access to the actual work, please provide a link. The way in which you have so boldly claimed to know the role the writer's religious views have had on her thesis makes it sound like you've read the whole thesis. It is one thing to say the conclusion is wrong. It is quite another to blame it all on religion.
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
I am referring to the actual work, not conjecture that's floating around the internet. If you have access to the actual work, please provide a link. The way in which you have so boldly claimed to know the role the writer's religious views have had on her thesis makes it sound like you've read the whole thesis.
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
Sometimes, you don't need to read the whole thesis of 100s of pages to know that it's BS.
So you admit you are simply going off conjecture. How do we know this isn't a hoax? Or does something not need to be factual when you want to accuse religion of being backward?
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
There is no logic, rationality or reason with people who follow blindly... only threats of hell.
For your education, the theory of evolution does not necessarily come into conflict with religion. It is just a theory that explains how living creatures adapt to their environment with time. Proof of it can be found all the time with bacteria that are becoming more and more drug resistant with time, which is why we are always on the lookout for stronger and stronger antibiotics.
Sub'han'Allah, you are accusing people who blindly following and branding yourself as if you are not following such a path. I am shocked. But yeah..go and follow that "theory of evolution does not necessarily come in to conflict with religion"- mentality.
Most probably you have not learned much about theory of evolution at all, or rather i should say..the blind belief you accuse others of, you yourself are doing.
Also, you are very eager to type a reply, yet you have not thought about it at all what i have said. Those people who only talk about threat of hell, one can make them to see and learn the way of using logic, rationality and reason. I have seen such a people and these people can agree with you and see eye to eye. These people at such a point in there life can finally start using their mind, but YOU with agnostic mentality, there is NO reasoning with you.
Why? you never..and i mean NEVER draw certain lines of this is true and that is false. Everything is doubt. Questioning things is good, i even encourage people doing so, but to a question there is a answer. A question can have a very shallow answer which to people who never ponder will be a very good answer ..atheists and well even you as you talk about evolution theory as if it has a solid basis, to people who do ponder it shows how big of a lie it is. A very firm rooted on philosophical depth answer has a firm stance with people who ponder. With you, you do not ponder..you only..WHAT IF THIS..and WHAT IF THAT. That is why if truth hits you right across your face, you still come with conclusions of..what if this and what if that. I have tried and tried with agnostics they are not sure on ANYTHING..let me repeat it again..I have tried and tried with agnostics they are NOT SURE ON ANYTHING.
Like i already said people with your mentality annoy me the MOST of ALL the people. Christians follow blindly, but they AT LEAST have chosen a firm stance with certain belief. People who follow blindly (sheep) they also have a certain stance and follow that path. With you..NOTHING is firm. You are not even sure if you yourself exist..that is how far it goes with agnostics. To me i say let people do whatever they want to do, but you to have the nerve and act as if you know something under the banner of agnosticism..on a Islam forum, that is just a insult right in to my face. That is why i take it so to say so "personally".
Go first do your research and make a firm stance when we talk about religion, then come back. Be it that you become religious or atheist, just as long as you have a firm stance on something.
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
So you admit you are simply going off conjecture. How do we know this isn't a hoax? Or does something not need to be factual when you want to accuse religion of being backward?
It is a news story that has popped up in several media, including local Tunisian media (here is an article in French from Tunisia on the scandal: http://www.jeuneafrique.com/424393/s...universitaire/). It certainly does not appear to be a hoax, and with the way that some people are reasoning on this forum, I wouldn't be surprised to see future examples of work like this. Once again, I am not accusing religion to be backwards but rather people who are going to go to great lengths to deny tonnes and tonnes of evidence that have been gathered over 1000's of years simply because it doesn't fit with what they think the Quran (or whatever other holy book) says.
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Most probably you have not learned much about theory of evolution at all, or rather i should say..the blind belief you accuse others of, you yourself are doing.
Actually, I know a great deal about the theory of evolution. I use to be quite skeptical of it, but as I studied it, I realized that it made very good sense. You should go and study it too.
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
Sometimes, you don't need to read the whole thesis of 100s of pages to know that it's BS.
Sometimes it is. We Muslims for example know very well what happens when some who doesn´t know much about Islam reads only few lines from the Quran, then he believes he understands the whole Islam and starts to make his own conclusions about it. We then say to him that he should at the least read the whole book first... but they usually don´t listen.
Any ways, one student creates kind of thesis. You come here to demand we all deny this claim and judge all religious people or what?
From Occupied Palestine:
We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Sometimes it is. We Muslims for example know very well what happens when some who doesn´t know much about Islam reads only few lines from the Quran, then he believes he understands the whole Islam and starts to make his own conclusions about it. We then say to him that he should at the least read the whole book first... but they usually don´t listen.
Any ways, one student creates kind of thesis. You come here to demand we all deny this claim and judge all religious people or what?
We are not talking about the Quran here but a PhD thesis in geology. Very different.
I have never demanded that you all deny this claim or judge all religious people, just those religious people who are very dogmatic and ready to twist and manipulate facts to make it fit with what they believe to be the truth.
That is, I am arguing for "reason", "good faith", and keeping an "open mind".
Last edited by fromelsewhere; 05-21-2017 at 06:37 PM.
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
It is a news story that has popped up in several media,
I am aware of this. There is still the possibility that it could be a hoax. Even if it is not a hoax, you are simply depending on the conclusion of others who are apparently depending on the conclusion of others... and that conclusion could be wrong.
and with the way that some people are reasoning on this forum, I wouldn't be surprised to see future examples of work like this.
Seeking evidence and verification is an important scientific tool. Passing on conjecture is not.
Once again, I am not accusing religion to be backwards but rather people who are going to go to great lengths to deny tonnes and tonnes of evidence that have been gathered over 1000's of years simply because it doesn't fit with what they think the Quran (or whatever other holy book) says.
Can you tell me who has said something doesn't fit with what the Qur'an says here?
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
There is still the possibility that it could be a hoax. Even if it is not a hoax, you are simply depending on the conclusion of others who are apparently depending on the conclusion of others... and that conclusion could be wrong.
Seeking evidence and verification is an important scientific tool. Passing on conjecture is not.
There is nothing that is known with 100% certainty. That being said, when many different sources come up with the same story and even the Minister of Higher Education in Tunisia talks about it, I tend to believe that it is true, just like I tend to believe that 9/11 is true and that the NASA pictures of the Earth and moon were true.
Last edited by fromelsewhere; 05-21-2017 at 06:51 PM.
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
Actually, I know a great deal about the theory of evolution. I use to be quite skeptical of it, but as I studied it, I realized that it made very good sense. You should go and study it too.
Been there done that, that is why i left atheism. Because it did not make sense. Evolution of theory one cannot say well it starts with life ..no it has to explain EVERYTHING from the start of the universe to where we are now. You cannot say well the middle part of a concept makes sense, so EVERYTHING of it is true. That is why i said you are looking at it from a shallow perspective. Atheism has scientific findings (skulls, bones etc.) this is filled with A LOT lies and what could not be sealed with lies, is filled with hope. Tada..we have created a new religion because at the end of the day it indeed is a religion, they believe in something they have not seen with their own eyes, like Muslims, Jews, Christians believe in Moses (as) separating with the permission of God the sea not seen with their eyes but believed it has happened.
Atheism is for people who want something to be true, not what reality it self says something is true. Atheism is compariable with a investigation of a murder. They see a knife, but not killer, they see the knife, but not prints, they see some blood, but not body. So some facts are there indeed. A knife..and blood. However the lies are thrown in (most probably somebody has been murdered with this knife) and somebody has killed a person and moved the body and we have to search for the body and the killer (hope).
Religion and i speak about Islam, says you have the facts. There are planets, there are trees, there are animals, bacteria, human beings, atmosphere, etc. etc. How can this make sense? The facts are there..one cannot say there are no trees..or human beings. What religion says something about these facts? Well there are some religions, but based on logic, rationality and reason some are being contradictory to the facts that we see and confirmed. So most probably those we should put aside. That is why i ended up with Islam. You see something and you search for the group that has a firm stance of the EXISTING facts..not the HOPE facts to filled it further up.
When one follows Islamic perspective, before the big bang or creation..something indeed has to exist..or we will end up with something that cannot be answered Islam confirms this. After that what we see and feel on this earth again makes sense and is in line with Islamic teachings so again not being contradictory.
I have looked in to this and tried from all perspectives ONLY Islam stays firm on this. Even from a perspective of a evil entity (Satan) existing. Following logic, rationality and reason one STILL can derive at Islam. This evil entity from Jewish and Christian and also Islamic perspective, this entity KNOWS some things should NOT be practiced and rather are forbidden. Like eating the fruit from the tree so to say. These days, for example people are away from religion as NEVER before in history of mankind. So in other words people follow exactly the path of this evil entity and HE KNOWS what is forbidden in the TRUE path.
Alcohol for example is being used and promoted all over the world, Islam being the ONLY religion saying NO!! to that.
Women are barely dress, while Islam is very strict in this..
Materialism is being promoted all over the place, while Islam is being clear on this..
Usury is being used all over the place, while Islam is being clear on this..
And there are A LOT more things that one can derive at Islam being the truth, however this ONLY is for people who ponder and who's heart is open to what exists as already facts and not what they WANT to be the truth.
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Been there done that, that is why i left atheism. Because it did not make sense. Evolution of theory one cannot say well it starts with life ..no it has to explain EVERYTHING from the start of the universe to where we are now. You cannot say well the middle part of a concept makes sense, so EVERYTHING of it is true.
Once again, the theory of evolution does NOT claim to explain how life started out on earth. There are different hypotheses for that, but no good and clear scientific explanations thus far. Your argument is like saying that since the Theory of General Relativity does not explain how the universe started out, then it must be wrong. There is another theory for that (how the universe started out) that is called the Big Bang Theory.
One thing that we have learned, however, from the Miller-Urey experiment is that organic compounds (the most basic building blocks of life) can be made from inorganic compounds. This could give a small clue as to how life started out on earth, but once again, we cannot explain scientifically how life began on earth and we may well never have a full scientific explanation.
So go back and learn the Theory of Evolution because you have clearly not understood it well the first time you learned it.
Re: PhD thesis: The earth is flat! An example of how religion and science doesn't mix
format_quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere
There is nothing that is known with 100% certainty. That being said, when many different sources come up with the same story and even the Minister of Higher Education in Tunisia talks about it, I tend to believe that it is true, just like I tend to believe that 9/11 is true and that the NASA pictures of the Earth and moon were true.
You will find all sorts of stories depending on which obscure websites you visit. It is not uncommon for facts to get distorted and become outright lies. To question this does not make one a conspiracy theorist.
Let's not turn this into another debate over evolution.
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Bookmarks