Men and women are different, but complement each other.

**Abz2000** · 05-12-2013

A lot of political games are being played in the country in which I am residing,
Looks like they've lost the confidence of the people due to they're kufr and tyranny so are trying to play the old western game and get 50% on board by pretending to get them equal rights, when in reality they are trying to strip them of what respect they have while semi-disrobing them to sell soaps and chocolates,

Many of us acknowledge differences between men and women while some fall into the rigged game of political correctness and pretend that it's all the same,

Has anyone noticed how men drive differently and women get cheaper car insurance? how men make risky split second decisions with less regard for established norms, make adjustments quicker in "bending rules/allowances" whether at baggage weight check at the airport, and also are more prone to take bribes? How the family automatically delegates control to the man when on holiday or when the car breaks down?
Do women like the idea of a man who throws his arms up and looks blankly at the woman when things go wrong?
how men are attracted to vulnerable rather than macho pant wearing women?
How boys listen less than girls and are more disrptive and strong headed?

Is it because men are created for and given the physical tools and strength to take responsibility in overall administration and because they feel the man made box is just a guideline within their control to mold as they see necessary?

I came across this during my search and it seemed to make sense, (acknowledgement of differences is difficult to find in this brave new world of pol cor

As a woman and a psychologist who has treated women and couples in the last two decades, I find that as I get older, I make a lot more comments to both male and female patients about how the sexes differ. Let’s take an every day example. A woman complains that her husband or male partner does not listen. Women often complain that a male counterpart wants to provide advice when she talks about a problem. We women can feel unheard in this situation, as we would like our partners to remark on the content of our feelings. Sound familiar?

When I am talking with patients, I often try to normalize the above example as one way that men and women are different. Although it may be that a couple is not compatible because of difficulties communicating, I am rarely worried about a partnership based on different communication styles. Rather, I try to educate men, women and couples about the differences in perceptions regarding what is ideal communication. Because a man offers advice does not mean that he does not care. A man offering pragmatic sensibilities seems to be evidence that he is listening! When I say this to my women patients, they are often relieved.

Yet, I find myself sometimes experiencing a curious anxiety when I point out sex and gender differences between women and men. The way men and women listen and talk is just one example. I can get even more anxious when I imply that men process emotions differently and they respond to feelings in a way that can seem foreign to us women.

This raises the question, are women the same as men? Are we different? And if so, can we live with the idea of difference in a post 1970’s feminist world?

Talking openly about the biological differences between men and women can be complicated. Louann Brizendine, M.D. wrote a bestselling book in 2006 about the way male and female brains and bodies differ. Whatever readers or reviewers thought about the book, it has been translated into 30 languages and obviously speaks to something we women are concerned about, which is talking about how men and women are different. Of course, socialization and the way we are raised plays an important role, but biology does seem to matter. This may not be news to young women and men, but for women in Brizendine’s generation and my own, such talk can feel like heresy. Brizendine brings this up in the epilogue of her book:

“There are those who wish there were no differences between men and women. In the 1970’s at the University of California, Berkeley, the buzzword among young women was “mandatory unisex,” which meant that it was politically incorrect even to mention sex difference.”

Something curious happened along the way for women exposed to feminist beliefs. Those of us in our 40’s and beyond were reared in a time in which we felt we had to deny differences between the sexes. This message had a purpose. We had to justify equal rights and equal pay. Although I can’t say that we have really achieved either, it certainly is better than it has been, at least in the United States. Yet, our current state of external inequality makes it harder to talk about internal and biological differences.*

Brizendine goes on to say, “The fear of discrimination based on difference runs deep, and for many years assumptions about sex differences went scientifically unexamined for fear that women wouldn’t be able to claim equality with men. But pretending that women and men are the same, while doing a disservice to both men and women, ultimately hurts women. Perpetuating the myth of the male norm means ignoring women’s real, biological differences in severity, susceptibility and treatment of disease. It also ignores the different ways that they process thoughts and therefore perceive what is important.”

Where does that leave us? Especially as a therapist, I am mindful of not wanting to reduce complaints to differences between the sexes, as we all have our own individual responsibility when it comes to our partnerships. Additionally, I don’t want to bash men. But how did it become the case that talking about biological differences reifies the idea that women are less than equal?

Just because men and women have different ways of thinking about things does not make women inferior. It would be nice if men and women can both acknowledge the ways we are unique and take a stance that is more understanding. We all have different strengths.

Trying to understand how men and women communicate, without taking anything personally, can do a lot to help people in heterosexual relationships get along. And it just might be okay to talk about how men are different from us women. In a more equal, understanding and diverse world, we can appreciate differences empathically, not judgmentally. Talking about gender and sex differences might positively influence communication among men and women.

http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/21...-men-and-women

The intent of the topic is not for one gender to bash the other, but to acknowledge that we are different and a perceived strength may be a weakness in another field and vice versa, how a perceived female bias may actuly be an inbuilt protection mechanism required for the more localised upbringing of children and loyalty to family etc.
I know my dad would take out the belt and mum would come and lie for us and even go mad at anyone who complained about us.

Please heed the request to not turn it into a better than thou contest.

Peace

**جوري** · 05-14-2013

Originally Posted by Sir Fluffy

To correct you on that statement I have seen plenty of women in construction work. I should also mention that the woman I saw had biceps which winked at me

. Very scary seeing a 6 and a half foot tall woman but they do exist.

Women have equal opportunities in America mostly except for government jobs. The issue is not a matter of them being permitted to work it is a matter of them getting hired. Certain fields women have better odds then men but mostly men have better chances then women. Take for example my friend who is an electrician His company tends not to hire women out of fear they cannot perform manual tasks as equivalent to men. Companies will always be biased regardless of it being illegal.

Indeed. Even Female doctors and engineers are paid less than their male counterparts, but they don't put the same hours as men do they? Nor should they!
I don't expect a woman who just gave birth to be back on the job at 7 am and put in as many hours!
construction in the U.S is one of the most dangerous jobs I don't know if it ranked one or two. I feel sorry that a woman would have to do any kind of physically exhausting manual labor to butter her bread. work in a mine field or construction or front line infantry. Is this a play for equality? one that has lost all reverence for womanhood and motherhood?
I am not sure who is convincing whom of what.. but no woman is that stupid.. necessity perhaps forces them but no one believes that in doing so it means equality!

**Sir Fluffy** · 05-14-2013

Originally Posted by العنود

Indeed. Even Female doctors and engineers are paid less than their male counterparts, but they don't put the same hours as men do they? Nor should they!
I don't expect a woman who just gave birth to be back on the job at 7 am and put in as many hours!
construction in the U.S is one of the most dangerous jobs I don't know if it ranked one or two. I feel sorry that a woman would have to do any kind of physically exhausting manual labor to butter her bread. work in a mine field or construction or front line infantry. Is this a play for equality? one that has lost all reverence for womanhood and motherhood?
I am not sure who is convincing whom of what.. but no woman is that stupid.. necessity perhaps forces them but no one believes that in doing so it means equality!

Right on the spot al-Anud. Having the same jobs as a man is not equivalent to being paid equally.
I have known plenty women who have worked with me in warehouses and no matter how brawny they are they simply cannot keep up with males. As for serving on the frontlines of the military, nobody wishes to die needlessly for a cause that is not theirs. Lots of men in military services around the world would love to never enter combat while serving their duty.
Men and women have their do's and don'ts and wanting to be equal to men is biologically impossible. Because to be equal means you have to be able to perform the same way a man can which will include manual labor. usually women do not hold in this area as much as men. It does not mean inferiority and women should be happy of the things that they can do that men can't. We all serve a purpose and people should learn to better fulfill it.

**جوري** · 05-14-2013

Originally Posted by Sir Fluffy

Because to be equal means you have to be able to perform the same way a man can which will include manual labor

The operative word here is equal in the eyes of whom? Do you buy into all that BS about we can do it too and women working in factories while their kids are being taken from them & put up for adoption. That was the actual point in the breakdown of a family. By the way many of the sisters on this forum have doctorates and masters myself included wal7mdullilah so it isn't a matter of refusing education. It is a matter of the false belief that if women go down to factories, or mines or armies or even law firms they're equal to men. Our equality at least with

doesn't come from carrying one ton oF bricks oN the back and lugging it up iron beams.
I look at western society in general and think wow these really are the most exploited subjugated and overly sexualized women they can't even sell toothpaste or shaving cream without some half naked woman involved, and unfortunately our societies by proxy since we follow them to hijr dhabb as the prophet described, or rather that they've imposed on us their idea of freedom & equal rights that it seems so sparkly. To this day when I visit other places, I am often dumfounded by how awestruck they're by anything American or European if they only knew of the toxic work environments, the unending payments and the wastage of years on education that you can have in half the time if allowed but having to go through a system that is meant to stultify your growth and artificially prolong your childhood.

**جوري** · 05-14-2013

look at this even a 12 year old knows all about the BS..

**Sir Fluffy** · 05-14-2013

Originally Posted by العنود

The operative word here is equal in the eyes of whom? Do you buy into all that BS about we can do it too and women working in factories while their kids are being taken from them & put up for adoption. That was the actual point in the breakdown of a family. By the way many of the sisters on this forum have doctorates and masters myself included wal7mdullilah so it isn't a matter of refusing education. It is a matter of the false belief that if women go down to factories, or mines or armies or even law firms they're equal to men. Our equality at least with

doesn't come from carrying one ton on bricks on your back and lugging it up iron beams.
I look at western society in general and think wow these really are the most exploited subjugated and overly sexualized women they can't even sell you toothpaste or shaving cream without some half naked woman involved, and unfortunately our societies by proxy since we follow them to hijr dhabb as the prophet described, or rather that they've imposed on us their idea of freedom & equal rights that it seems so sparkly. To this day when I visit other places, I am often dumfounded by how awestruck they're by anything American or European if they only knew of the toxic work environments, the unending payments and the wastage of years on education that you honestly have in half the time if allowed but having to go through a system that is meant to stultify your grown and artificially prolong your childhood.

My own sisters went ahead got their degrees and became successful medical experts in their own fields. None of which have done jobs befitting for a man. They each have a salary far greater than males in manual labor fields and they are happy of this. They do not complain about being equal to men and earning less and not being able to haul 80 pounds of cement while in the desert heat. Men do not desire such jobs either as a whole!
Women in the west are exploited even by the things they use to dignify themselves Women now want rights to go topless like males in the USA. They somehow believe they are raising their status and creating a positive outlook upon themselves. In reality they are appearing as *****s(excuse my language) to all men and only making themselves looked down upon.
Somehow bad has become good and good has become bad, this is a very backwards world we live in

**ardianto** · 05-14-2013

All of my employees in my courier agents are males. I prefer male for this job because I need employee who have "field people mindset" that usually males.

There are jobs which males are preferable, there are jobs which females are preferable.

**Independent** · 05-14-2013

Originally Posted by العنود

The operative word here is equal in the eyes of whom?

In your reply you are confusing 'equal' with 'same'. I don't think women are the same as men. I don't think one woman is the same as another woman. The state's proper obligation is to ensure equality of opportunity and access.

Of course, some individuals are better equipped for some jobs, whether mentally or physically. But the state should not intervene in the employer's choice by preventing them from hiring any particular group - such as women.

Whereas, Abz thinks women should be excluded by the state from the majority of jobs. For some reason, he thinks this is not totalitarian, and that providing access to all is totalitarian.

It has become apparent that women are at least as able as men in a whole swathe of jobs, especially the type of job that modern western economies tend to create. In terms of ability it is now factually incorrect to say that they 'can't' do these jobs. If you believe that they 'shouldn't' do these jobs, for religious reasons, that's another matter. But for a secular state such as the UK, where Abz lives, it is logical, fair and just that the state should legislate where possible to provide equal access.

Personally, I have employed both men and women over the years and I have experienced successes and failures with both groups.

**ardianto** · 05-14-2013

A few days ago I went to a computer repair shop and I saw a hijabi woman was repairing laptop. A rare sight in my place, a woman repairing electronic equipment.

There is no prohibition for women to work as an electronics repair(wo)man, but the women themselves who avoid work like this and prefer other fields. Secretarial work in the office, for example. Highly dominated by women because men are reluctant to work as a secretary.

So, beside "there are jobs which males are preferable, there are jobs which females are preferable" in fact "there are jobs which preferable by men, there are jobs which preferable by women".

**GodIsAll** · 05-14-2013

Originally Posted by العنود

Equality doesn't mean sameness.
and generally I speak at least for Muslim women, we don't want to be treated equal to you, we want to be treated better!

That made me actually laugh out loud. Pure and total honesty! Love it!

I've done the house-building, concrete pouring, brick laying gigs, mostly through college. Tough work for anybody and I am glad I only have to do those types of things when I choose to nowadays.

**جوري** · 05-14-2013

Originally Posted by Independent

In your reply you are confusing 'equal' with 'same'.

Where have I confused the two when I clearly wrote if you read

Originally Posted by العنود

Equality doesn't mean sameness.

You didn't understand that the first time around? needed to be broken down further?

Originally Posted by Independent

Of course, some individuals are better equipped for some jobs, whether mentally or physically. But the state should not intervene in the employer's choice by preventing them from hiring any particular group - such as women.

Shouldn't but it does plenty I have evinced it above!

Originally Posted by Independent

It has become apparent that women are at least as able as men in a whole swathe of jobs, especially the type of job that modern western economies tend to create.

Western economies create ponzie schemes which they need to sustain by invading sovereign nations.

Originally Posted by Independent

where Abz lives

That's not where ABZ lives!

Originally Posted by Independent

Personally, I have employed both men and women over the years and I have experienced successes and failures with both groups.

I'd imagine in your line of work women would excel indeed, women are said they're better writers especially on forums.

best,

**ardianto** · 05-14-2013

Women do not want to be treated equal to men, that they want is to be treated in a special way as a woman.

**GodIsAll** · 05-14-2013

Originally Posted by العنود

I'd imagine in your line of work women would excel indeed, women are said they're better writers especially on forums.

Me no argue point that. Ungah.

**Independent** · 05-14-2013

Providing equality of access to employment is not the same as saying men and women are equal in the sense of 'the same'. And open access to a job is not equivalent to being forced to actually do it.

Originally Posted by العنود

Where have I confused the two when I clearly wrote if you read

For instance, here:

Originally Posted by العنود

The operative word here is equal in the eyes of whom?

The basic principle of equality of access and opportunity to employment is not subjective, it's not in anyone's eyes in particular. The State should not intervene to prevent any employer from hiring men or women. What's it got to do with the State?

Originally Posted by العنود

I feel sorry that a woman would have to do any kind of physically exhausting manual labor to butter her bread.

You're continually making irrelevant comparisons with jobs that women are less likely to take on under any system. Having an equal right of access to all jobs doesn't mean a compulsion to take on one job in particular. As Ardianto says, men and women may simply prefer certain professions, whether or not they are equally able for it. No problem! The State should let the individual decide. What would be wrong is for the state to say that women, for example, are simply barred from a range of jobs which they are perfectly able to do.

Originally Posted by العنود

Equality doesn't mean sameness.
and generally I speak at least for Muslim women, we don't want to be treated equal to you, we want to be treated better!

A secular state which seeks to guarantee equality of access does not prevent you or anyone else from choosing the lifestyle you prefer. If a couple wish to follow traditional roles with man as breadwinner, woman as homemaker, that's fine. And if a woman wants her own career, equally fine. This is for the individual to decide, not the state. If you're fortunate enough to find someone to keep you in luxury, that's your lucky break.

Originally Posted by العنود

Even Female doctors and engineers are paid less than their male counterparts

As well as guaranteeing job access, the state should legislate to ensure fair pay and conditions for all groups, no matter who they are. Great progress has been made on this in many European countries. I don't know about the US but I assume efforts are under way there too.

Originally Posted by العنود

I feel sorry that a woman would have to do any kind of physically exhausting manual labor to butter her bread.

I feel sorry for anyone who is forced to do a job they don't want. Regrettably, making a living can be hard and people have to do what is necessary to survive. This doesn't have anything much to do with equal job access, however.

**جوري** · 05-14-2013

Originally Posted by Independent

Providing equality of access to employment is not the same as saying men and women are equal in the sense of 'the same'. And open access to a job is not equivalent to being forced to actually do it.

I fail to see how the logorrhea deranges what I'd written here:

Originally Posted by العنود

Equality doesn't mean sameness.

Originally Posted by Independent

The basic principle of equality of access and opportunity to employment is not subjective, it's not in anyone's eyes in particular. The State should not intervene to prevent any employer from hiring men or women. What's it got to do with the State?

The state does restrict certain jobs that women can attain. I am not sure what you're arguing about. I have already listed several that women can't have per state law- and even if not made into a law, women aren't accepted into such jobs anyway. No point in pretenses.

Originally Posted by Independent

A secular state which seeks to guarantee equality of access does not prevent you or anyone else from choosing the lifestyle you prefer. If a couple wish to follow traditional roles with man as breadwinner, woman as homemaker, that's fine. And if a woman wants her own career, equally fine. This is for the individual to decide, not the state. If you're fortunate enough to find someone to keep you in luxury, that's your lucky break.

In theory that should be true, in actuality, you've doctors & engineers without employment in spite of playing the game!

He is definitely not the exception. It is a matter of values or lack thereof and what sells not what's best for anyone!

Originally Posted by Independent

As well as guaranteeing job access, the state should legislate to ensure fair pay and conditions for all groups, no matter who they are. Great progress has been made on this in many European countries. I don't know about the US but I assume efforts are under way there too.

No such efforts are taking place, see above example. In fact all the so-called jobs that are being created to stimulate the economy are a temporary fix. A friend of mine works for a company where they created some 20,000 jobs and he said they'll let go of at least 15,000-17,000 of those over the next few months. Those people are going to put on their resume worked for such and such company for a year or less, they're going to apply somewhere else to butter their bread, elsewhere will look at them as folks who can't keep a job for it is terrible to work in any place for less than two years, and the majority of them will go on assistance or will roll into another crappy low end paying job that doesn't suit their expertise or skills only to make money for some cretin on top of the food chain who has probably not seen the inside of a university in his life!

Originally Posted by Independent

I feel sorry for anyone who is forced to do a job they don't want. Regrettably, making a living can be hard and people have to do what is necessary to survive. This doesn't have anything much to do with equal job access, however.

It has everything to do with it. Things seem nice on paper the reality of things is completely opposite of that image sold, especially to other countries where they're hoping to export and impose that image of 'free equal access society'

best,

**Independent** · 05-14-2013

Originally Posted by العنود

I fail to see how the logorrhea deranges what I'd written here:

I'm sorry, but this doesn't mean anything in English.

Originally Posted by العنود

The state does restrict certain jobs that women can attain. I am not sure what you're arguing about.

Well, I'm really replying to Abz rather than you throughout this thread. He appears to believe it's ok for the State to bar women from certain jobs. I think this is wrong, every job should be open to any applicant. That doesn't mean that everyone wants to apply for every job, or that they may actually get it.

It's a simple principle of open access under the law.

Originally Posted by العنود

No such efforts are taking place, see above example. In fact all the so-called jobs that are being created to stimulate the economy are a temporary fix.

Job creation is an entirely separate issue. But rather than, as usual, despising the country which provides you with a home and a living, you should respect the fact that the US has a terrific record of job creation over the centuries. I don't agree with everything they do either, but this achievement has to be respected.

**جوري** · 05-14-2013

Originally Posted by Independent

I'm sorry, but this doesn't mean anything in English.

Sure it does.. try the medical dictionary

Originally Posted by Independent

It's a simple principle of open access under the law.

Like I said good on paper only!

Originally Posted by Independent

Job creation is an entirely separate issue. But rather than, as usual, despising the country which provides you with a home and a living, you should respect the fact that the US has a terrific record of job creation over the centuries. I don't agree with everything they do either, but this achievement has to be respected.

Whatever I personally achieved in life, I have achieved through my own sacrifice, hard work and study not through a country. I take my heart & mind with me everywhere!
Some of the crap I had to endure here is unbelievable and unacceptable. Starting with respect that should be attained for the mere fact that one is a human being above all else but what can one expect from a place that glorifies its wh0res and renders homeless its scholars?
Let's see how the 'job creation' that is to be admired fares in this new economy over the next decade or so!

best,

**greenhill** · 05-14-2013

Men and women are different but complement each other. Absolutely agree. If only we acknowledge this and get on with life.

Why the attention to compare the two? Apart from the obvious physical differences, we are also emotionaly and experiencially different and that too will change over time. So, in talking about complementing each other, it should remain there, complementing, and not competing. Competing in every field is alien in Islam except to do good for Allah's sake. Even better if done anonymously. So back to the question, can we complement each other? I believe we can. Just don't get your plot with your partner get lost along the way. Review it, if necessary. Life is a journey. Even the prophet sought comfort from his wife who gave him strength after his Iqra' encounter with Gabriel. Compliment each other. Roles can be reversed temporarily, occasionally, or whenever, nothing wrong with that. Give and take. That's life.

Peace

**Independent** · 05-14-2013

Originally Posted by العنود

Like I said good on paper only!

This is plainly not correct. The difference between a state that legally bars women from certain jobs and activities (such as Saudi Arabia) and one that leaves it up to personal choice in the vast majority of cases (eg the US) is absolutely clear and real. The difference is not just on paper, it's clear to see. It's actually a really simple principle.

Originally Posted by العنود

what can one expect from a place that glorifies its wh0res and renders homeless its scholars?

It would seem you are unable to adjust to living in the US. Instead of complaining about it, you should find somewhere that doesn't lead you to express hatred on a daily basis.

Originally Posted by العنود

Sure it does.. try the medical dictionary

'Deranges' is the wrong word in this context. Possibly you mean something like 'contradicts'. But as ever, it's hard to tell.

**جوري** · 05-14-2013

glad you looked up logorrhea and learned something new.. try to curb down its usage so we're not wasting web space on so much drivel

Originally Posted by Independent

This is plainly not correct. The difference between a state that legally bars women from certain jobs and activities (such as Saudi Arabia) and one that leaves it up to personal choice in the vast majority of cases (eg the US) is absolutely clear and real. The difference is not just on paper, it's clear to see. It's actually a really simple principle.

I think you're still having a difficult time understanding 'exclusion' from a job.. speaking of Saudi I was offered fantastic career opportunities there as a woman that I wasn't offered here in the U.S- only problems there consisted of having a sponsor.
I have lived there for four years so I'd refrain from making comments as you often display your ignorance.
You deny some words that exist, you presume to know where ABZ lives you make blanket statements about countries you've never been. And yet don't even bother to save face with later attempts.. how admirable!

Originally Posted by Independent

It would seem you are unable to adjust to living in the US. Instead of complaining about it, you should find somewhere that doesn't lead you to express hatred on a daily basis.

everywhere I go not only am I well adjusted I also excel. Let's get all your turds out of the Muslim world first before discussing me personally.
Also there are no laws against hatred last I checked. You seem to express it quite often though but cover it with enough grease so others swallow it!

Originally Posted by Independent

'Deranges' is the wrong word in this context. Possibly you mean something like 'contradicts'. But as ever, it's hard to tell.

If you didn't know the first word and denied its existence with such vehemence, then you're in no position to speak of context. If your claim to fame and when completely at a loss of something useful to say is deliver a harangue and fixate on words then do it in the correct section!

best,