Assalamu alaykum

format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer

That just goes to reinforce what I say. It doesn't matter in which language you read about the universe, it is amazing! But it doesmatter in which language you read the Quran?

That's one of the reasons it looks man made to me. Something capable of creating the universe (which is amazing in any language) would be more than capable of writing a book which is amazing in every language. 7th century humans from Arabia unable to speak other languages however would at best be able to write a book which is amazing only in Arabic.

Why the discrepancy?

Asalaamu Alaikum,

When you look at Quranic literature, this is what is unique;

- The Phenotics (Sound)
- The Structure
- The Use of Words
- Pronounciations of Words
- Punctuality

And there's alot more for someone who was to look at the literature in absolute detail. So it's not just about it sounding beautiful or understanding the meanings, there's so much more to it. Despite this, you ask why can't something of this level of literature be translated in another langauge and still maintain the great aspects it has in Arabic language?

Wouldn't that literally break all bounds of logic and impossibility in reality? In 1400 years, many new languages have been spoken and many new one's may be spoken in the future. Now, if any new language was created and a person suddenly tried to translate the Quran's langauge too it, despite the new language having many flaws, could that ever possibly work, this would be like a mere human being able to continuesly do miracles in the translation of a piece of text, since the text is the same, but the languagee is new?

This idea is what I would describe as a "too obvious a sign". I mean, you described other poetry losing it's initial credibility the moment it is translated into "another language", but out of all the texts in the world if the Quran was the only piece of text that miraculously was able to still have the same literary skills, sounds and meanings, wouldn't then every single person suddenly accept that this Book is indeed from God and there is no doubt, because even a theory wouldn't be able to justify how something like this is possible whilst it not being possible for anything else?

When I said a "sign to obvious" what I meant is, if God was really going to make his existence that obvious that all of Mankind would immediatly obey, what would be the whole point of the test of this life, what would be the whole point of being able to have "free will", which includes being able to think as you please and do as you please. This is the complete opposite of the message of the Quran, which continuesly tells mankind to; think, ponder and reflect.

"Those who do not know say, "Why does Allah not speak to us or there come to us a sign?" Thus spoke those before them like their words. Their hearts resemble each other. We have shown clearly the signs to a people who are certain [in faith]." - [Quran 2:18]

"It is He Who sends down water from the sky. From it you drink and from it come the shrubs among which you graze your herds. And by it He makes crops grow for you and olives and dates and grapes and fruit of every kind .There is certainly a sign in that for people who reflect. He has made the night and the day subservient to you, and the sun, the moon and the stars, all subject to His command. There are certainly signs in that for people who use their intellect. And also the things of varying colours He has created for you in the earth. There is certainly a sign in that for people who pay heed. It is He Who made the sea subservient to you so that you can eat fresh flesh from it and bring out from it ornaments to wear. And you see the ships cleaving through it so that you can seek His bounty, and so that perhaps you may show thanks. He cast firmly embedded mountains on the earth so it would not move under you, and rivers and pathways so that perhaps you might be guided, and landmarks. And they are guided by the stars. Is He Who creates like him who does not create? So will you not pay heed?" (Surat an-Nahl: 10-17)

"In the heavens and the earth there are certainly signs for the believers. And in your creation and all the creatures He has scattered about there are signs for people with certainty." [Surat al-Jathiyah: 3-4]

"And it is He who spread out the earth, and set thereon mountains standing firm, and (flowing) rivers: and fruits of every kind He made in pairs, two and two: He draws the Night as a veil over the Day. Verily in those things there are signs for those who consider." - [Quran 3:13]

"This is a communication to be transmitted to mankind so that they can be warned by it and so that they will know that He is One God and so that people of intelligence will pay heed." [Surah Ibrahim: 52]

This world is just a test, it is temporary and every single human is being tested, including the Muslims -

"Alif-Laam-Meem. Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: 'We believe,' and will not be tested?" [Quran29:1-3]

"Allah will not leave the believers in the state in which you are now, until He distinguished the wicked from the good. Nor will Allah disclose to you the secrets of the Unseen." [Quran 3:179]

"If their aversion is hard on you, then if you were able to seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the sky, so that you may bring them a sign. And had Allah willed, He could have gathered them together unto true guidance, so be not you one of those who are Al-Jahilun (the ignorant)." [Quran 6:35]

Even the believers will go through difficulties, will be at conflict just like the non-believers are until God distinguishes those that have fullfilled the purpose of their reason to exist.

And God even mentions that even if he did give a sign so clear that it would not require one to think, ponder or reflect that there would still be people who would mock it;

And [even] if We opened to them a gate from the heaven and they continued therein to ascend, They would say, "Our eyes have only been dazzled. Rather, we are a people affected by magic." [Quran 15:14-15]

Going back to the literacy of the Quran, here is a quote of what exactly the Quran literature is -

“But you know that the Qur’an is not prose and that it is not verse either. It is rather Qur’an, and it cannot be called by any other name but this. It is not verse, and that is clear; for it does not bind itself to the bonds of verse. And it is not prose, for it is bound by bonds peculiar to itself, not found elsewhere; some of the binds are related to the endings of its verses and some to that musical sound which is all its own. It is therefore neither verse nor prose, but it is “a Book whose verses have been perfected the expounded, from One Who is Wise, All-Aware.” We cannot therefore say its prose, and its text itself is not verse. It has been one of a kind, and nothing like it has ever preceded or followed it.” - Taha Husayn, a prominent Egyptian Litterateur

The above is correct, although people look at the Quran as a form of the Arabic language, they misunderstand or forget that never has such a unique form of Arabic ever been spoken before, people can't write the Quranic language in free speech nor speak of it, so unique that it can have it's own catagory in languages.

Thus the Quran's challenge to mankind "to produce a verse alike" is equally stranger to the translators of English, French, German as it is to the Arabs who speak Arabic. The Arabs can understand it, but for some reason they can't speak or write alike it.

Now if man was able to translate the Quran to it's perfection in another langauge, keeping it's rythm, it's sound and it's meaning, then would this not have destroyed the challenge that the Quran gives mankind? I mean, for a Englishman to translate the Quran fully to English, keeping all its uniqueness in tact, being able to somehow use the right words (out of a range of English words) and producing the Quran in another language; is this not the same as "producing a verse alike?"

My brother in Humanity, rather then asking questions such as "why didn't God just do this or that with the Quran", why not ask questions like "How did a illiterate man produce the finest piece of Arabic literature - How did he know scientific facts that is acceptable by Science today - Are the Mathematical miracles really miracles or just mere coincidences - Is it a coincidence that words such as man equal the number of mentions as woman, or jin equals the number of mentions as Angel, or Good equals the number of mentions such bad - Is it mere coincidence that when the word "middle" is mentioned in the context of a verse, that verse seemingly is right in the middle of the chapter ----- Continuesly ask yourself questions such as this, research it, what if it is the truth? Come to your own conclusion with full satisfaction as it either being the word of a Divine or well... Continue trying to find explanation for the questions.

If you would like to further study the unique literacy of the Quran, it's sounds and meanings then please check this out - http://www.theinimitablequran.com/uniquelitform.pdf

I finish off with this;

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût (false worship or idols)and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower - [Quran 2:256]

In the end, I think you owe it to yourself to just try a bit harder and see the logical reasoning. Believe me, if your expecting angels to come down in clouds and tell you "yes, He exists", it won't happen - that's too easy. When your in your classroom, when your doing a test, there's a reason why you do it under strict rules; your only purpose is to pass that test through putting the right answers down. This life in respects isn't much different, God has in a subtle yet obvious way given us a book(revision/guide), in it are miracles and signs, now let the test begin (bear in mind the people that came before the Quran revalation were also tested in their own way).

Peace

format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer

Then I am unsure what you mean by "even the arabic today doesnt completely match the original arabic from the Quraanic arabic language which is known as Fusha".

There are different dialects of arabic. One of the classical names for arabic is Fusha, which is the language of the Quran. sorry to be confusing.

format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer

So, I assume you are able to speak Arabic?.

I can speak little bits of arabic, but not full. But i can read arabic.

format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer

It was. I had a great teacher, but unfortunately he was a bigot and found it very uncomfortable having a non-Muslim in the class. I attended two other classes where I had no problems, but the method of teaching just wasn't the same. It's a shame, I miss it.

Aah i see, hope you find some other place in where you can learn the language insha`Allaah.

Peace

Welcome to the forum

Welcome to the forum.

format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer

I don't expect to see quantum physics in a 7th century book. However quantum physics is amazing in any language you look at it, and the Quran is not. In fact I didn't even find it remotely interesting, let alone impressive. Everything I saw in the Quran could have been written by a 7th century man.

Ok, its seems you have your views set on what you think of the Quran, I don't think we can 'enlighten' you anymore

so do you have any other queries? what do you hope to achieve by joining this forum?