Friendly Atheist

That's cool Mister Agenda. I hope u find ur stay beneficial and fun!

P.S. This forum came into existence by itself. It is self regulated and administrated. The members think m crazy, but u understand don't you - being an athiest

format_quote Originally Posted by member X

That's cool Mister Agenda. I hope u find ur stay beneficial and fun!

P.S. This forum came into existence by itself. It is self regulated and administrated. The members think m crazy, but u understand don't you - being an athiest

LOL, I don't think so, but it is a clever thing to say, it made me laugh when I 'got it', for a second I thought you were serious and talking about some sort of thing where the members ran everything and there was no administrator. That would be an interesting experiment, but probably not a very good forum.

The problem with saying everything has a cause is that if you think about it, it's not what you really believe. You don't think Allah has a cause, do you? You don't think 'The universe must have a cause, and that cause I call Allah. Allah must have a cause, and that cause I just don't have a name for yet'. When looking for ultimate causes, you stop at Allah. I stop at universe (or maybe universes, if there is ever strong evidence of that).

I have thought about my position a lot, for a long time. That doesn't make me right, but it does mean it's rare to hear an argument that I haven't already thought about. It's always fun to hear it put in a new way, though, and with friendly humor. Thanks!

Thanks, your avatar looks delicious!

How many posts do I have to make before I can post in other parts of the forum? I have a question about contraception (it makes sense to have lots of children when you're a farmer in a place where you need a lot of help--I'm a farmer's son myself--so I understand why using contraception would be discouraged under those circumstances; but what if you're a gravedigger in the USA and the more children you have the poorer you will be and the harder it will be to give all those kids a good start in life, like sending them to a good college?) and a question about the hijab (the Somali Bantu women I know wear scarves and long dresses, very modest, but some people at the mosque they attend try to make them feel bad about not wearing the hijab and also for wearing bright colored clothing--is their traditional clothing against Islam?). I've posted them in the appropriate places, but I don't think my posts will appear until I'm a full member. There was probably something about that when I registered, but I don't remember. This could be the post that gets me off probation!

format_quote Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

When looking for ultimate causes, you stop at Allah. I stop at universe (or maybe universes, if there is ever strong evidence of that).

Very intelligent, may God guide you. Indeed man must stop somewhere.

But, why stop at the creation, when you can stop at The Creator?

Why stop at the forum, when you can stop at the Administrator?

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

1 - you cant be sure your children will survive even if you have less children - having children is a persons God given right - you cant realy take it away from them - its realy up to the people involved how many children they want. Ofcourse having more children is a good thing - it keeps the human race going.

I'll Let the women answer the question on the hijab.

peace

I do understand that...but in the USA and Europe, it is unlikely that any of your children will fail to survive, if you have eight children, 99% in 30 years you will still have eight children. With that kind of survival rate, averaging three children per family is plenty to ensure the survival of the species, and if our population dips we can always have more children to solve the problem. Of course I would not dream of taking away someone's right to have children...but I think it should be up to the family to decide how many children they want to have and when to have them. I hear 'whatever Allah wills' as an argument against contraception, but surely contraception only works if 'Allah wills it' too?

Zafran, would I be correct in thinking that you would prefer Muslim families have many children, but you would not think Islam condemns one that uses a contraception method to have a smaller family?

Afifa approved my hijab question, thanks Afifa! It is in the Discovering Islam section.

format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

Easier to stop at a first cause, than come up with a cockamamie and unintelligible fairytale for every last thing in existence no-- that is if you subscribe to Ockham's Razor?
Anyhow welcome aboard, my comment wasn't an invite for a dialogue.. contrary to popular beliefs we're not out to convert people and if we were, logic would dictate we'd do it on their turf.. so enjoy your stay and learn what you need..

best,

Thanks! I don't intend to bring up the existence of Allah, but I will respond to remarks about my lack of belief being unreasonable. I will take such comments as an invitation to a dialogue. I don't think it is very reasonable to insult my position and expect me not to respond.

It hasn't been established that there is a first cause, perhaps existence has always existed, just not always in the current form. Some people think the Big Bang theory means everything came from nothing, but all the science tells us is that we don't know what the universe was like before the Big Bang, only that it was very small compared to how big it is now. I don't know if there was ever true non-existence, and if there was, I don't know how or why that changed...although there is some math that suggests if there were true nothingness, it would be unstable. There are an infinite number of ways for there to be something, only one way for there to be absolutely nothing.

I don't know what preceded the Big Bang (more like an expansion, but we seem to be stuck with the name), and neither does anyone else. Many people are certain their particular creation story is the true one, but certainty does not equal knowledge. I respect your right to your belief, and I do not expect you to agree with me, or to persuade you. I observe that we've never found a cause for something that was supernatural, and I conclude that it's natural causes, all the way down. I could be wrong, but if you want to make my position out to be unreasonable, it will take more than throw-away remarks I am supposed to suffer in silence: you will have to enter into a dialogue with me. Totally up to you folks, my reason for being here isn't to convince anyone they shouldn't believe in Allah.

I love my Bantu friends, they rely on me to give them good advice for living in America and they trust me with their children. I feel obliged to take their beliefs into account because my advice won't be helpful if I suggest things that are non-starters because they conflict with Islam. So I will have questions about that.

There is a lot of bigotry against Muslims in my country, especially since 9/11. People make big overgeneralizations about Muslims that concern me, we are in wars that I consider ill-advised, and there is a lot of paranoia. I seek information from Muslims because I like to be right, and getting my information from the source will make me right more often. I am not a champion of Islam, though. Every religion has its bad eggs who use their religon to justify crimes and oppression, and being able to be turned to this purpose easily is a flaw of Islam, in my opinion. However, it is a flaw shared by most other religions as well, and at least one secular philosophy (communism). I don't hold the vast majority of Muslims accountable for the crimes of a tiny minority, any more than I condemn my Lutheran or Episcopal neighbor for the crimes of the KKK or the IRA or the Lord's Army. When I hear people stay bigoted things about Muslims, I do speak up.

I have great hope for an Islamic Enlightentment that reconciles Islam to the modern world without compromising what is best in Islam. That's really your business though, not mine. I don't think it's the kind of thing that can be successfully engineered, if it happens it will happen organically, from within. I realize that opinion will probably not win me many friends here, but I am being honest with you. I hope similar things for my own country, that some day we will stop treating all problems as military problems just because we have a really strong military. This will never happen as long as we think things will change if we just elect the right people to run our government. It will only happen when we stop letting our government convince us that we have to go to war, and stop turning a blind eye to the forceful tactics used to meddle with other countries. I want peace and liberty for all people, but it's something they have to take for themselves, not something we can impose because we have the most planes and guns.

Sorry that turned into a rant, I guess I am passionate about these things. I don't agree 100% with any religion (obviously) but I strongly believe in the rights of conscience, of freedom of belief, and of free speech. In the current political climate of the USA and Europe, that puts me on the side of peaceful Muslims more often than it puts me on the side of those I call 'Christianists' (as opposed to the tolerant, decent, Christian) who are quick to see those rights as an obstacle when they are paranoid that every Muslim immigrant is part of a plot to impose Sharia law on the USA. I hope I haven't offended anyone, I tend to talk religion in the same way that I talk politics, I don't mean to make anyone's heart hurt. In this thread I'm still mainly trying to communicate who I am. If who I am is a problem, best to find out early, I guess. In other threads I probably won't be so talkative, and other people won't be as focused on my theological issues anyway.

format_quote Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

but you would not think Islam condemns one that uses a contraception method to have a smaller family?

Islam never condemns nor approve. Islam is not an entity.
Sorry for going for accuracy, because I think atheists normally prefer accuracy.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

You can start posting in other threads and sections, although the gender sections will always be a no go for you as a non muslim, which means also you cannot offer advice in the advice and suport section, but you can still start a thread and post reply in your own thread in that section. You will need to post 50 to qualify as a full member which will afford you some perks, such as ability to edit your own posts. Some sections are moderated, so threads or posts may need a while to appear.



AFAIK, majority islamic scholars agree that the use of contraception as family planning method is allowed.



Some sections are moderated, so depending on the availability of the moderators of the particular section that your started a thread, you may need to wait some time before it appears.
About hijab, they come in different modes, what pious and observing muslim women wear in Indonesia may not be the same as those in Saudi. The main thing is: they cover what needed to be covered, AND modesty.

Thanks, Ramadhan, that was very informative. I don't find it unreasonable, I'm not the person to give advice to Muslims on being Muslims, certainly! I think it's a good thing that women have a forum reserved for them, I understand that they have an expectation no men will be happening along.

format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman

Agenda, I don't know why every atheist who ever gets into a cosmological discussion seems to think that the "but you believe that something is uncaused too; what created God?" evasion is some new one on us that is bound to positively floor and utterly disillusion us for our terrible self-contradictory logic, but theists consider that chestnut every bit as much of an annoying and thousand-times-refuted cliche as you would consider quotations of Psalms 14:1.

Positing a uncaused agent outside of physical reality (which, by the way, would remove it from the automatic, or at least self-evident, necessity of causation for itself, as this chain of events we came out of and formulate cosmological arguments about is physical) is less of a violation of (the much overrated and misquoted) Ockham's Razor than doing things like positing the existence of a multitude (or even infinitude) of other entire universes to explain how our own can be the way it is without design behind it.

You think it's rare for you to hear an argument you haven't already thought about?? I have yet to find anything in the world more predictable than the arguments an atheist will make, down to at least four or five successive responses in a row. There probably isn't a single one you could throw at us which I haven't already shattered. But discuss it with me (in another thread) only if you decide you are prepared to endure attempts at conversion, at least to theism, because I have recently got way too sick and tired of all this--more with the interminable repetition of atheistic argumentation, in fact, than anything else--to have these endlessly-repeated-detail-by-detail debates for anything less.

If you think I'm surprised you've heard the obvious criticism of this assertion, you are mistaken. I am only surprised it continues to be asserted anyway. My comment was intended to discourage the thread from becoming an argument about the existence of God, but that seems to be what is wanted by some.

I don't believe in multiple universes, there's some math that suggests them, but I regard it as entertaining speculation unless evidence is found to support it. I would not be surprised if supercollider experiments fail to produce that evidence. I only included the multiple universes notion for the sake of completeness. The only reason the argument 'everything requires a cause' requires a 'causeless cause' to get things rolling is that otherwise the argument rules out an ultimate cause. Saying there's a universal rule with an exception just for the thing you want to be true is trying to have your cake and eat it too, also known as 'begging the question' or assuming the thing you're trying to prove. If you don't assert everything requiring a cause, you can posit Allah without contradiction, but there is also then no contradiction in the universe itself not requiring a cause. I agree that before the 'Big Expansion' the physical laws of the universe are unknown, so causality may break down at that point. I also think that existence, the set of all things that exist, is not necessarily subject to the same laws as the things it contains. I am comfortable with not knowing what is as yet unknowable.

I suppose it IS easy to predict atheist responses. We don't have an assertion to back up. All we do is point out where your assertions don't add up. And I am humble enough not to think I have shattered your arguments just because I think mine are so brilliant. I am a fallible human being and could be wrong in a way that I can't see because of my own limitations. I think you're in the same boat as I am, though, regarding that. I'm pretty sure that God can not be defined into or out of existence, though; deductive logic is only sound if all the premises are true and the conclusion necessarily follows from them.

PS: My apologies for removing the link from your quote, I am unable to submit any posts with links yet.

format_quote Originally Posted by member X

Very intelligent, may God guide you. Indeed man must stop somewhere.

But, why stop at the creation, when you can stop at The Creator?

Why stop at the forum, when you can stop at the Administrator?

I stop at the things I know exist. I know Administrators exist, I could be one myself if I wanted (maybe not here....) but they are not an ultimate cause. The entire history of the universe led up to the technology that makes this forum possible and the human beings who founded and administrate it. It doesn't really stop at the Administrator, if you think about it. The same logic and experience that leads me to conclude 'Administrator' also leads me to conclude 'Administrator's parents', 'Administrator's childhood', and so forth. You're suggesting an 'Administrator' for the universe that is really nothing like an Administrator of a forum. The analogy only goes so far.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

Islam never condemns nor approve. Islam is not an entity.
Sorry for going for accuracy, because I think atheists normally prefer accuracy.

Good point, I will try to be more precise with my language in future.

format_quote Originally Posted by Yanoorah

Welcome Mista'Agenda!

Thanks, Yanoorah!

I'm afraid I'm coming off as a bit argumentative with others here, that's not my intent. I am not trying to prove that I'm right, I'm only trying to show that my position can't be casually dismissed as ridiculous. In my opinion, if I were an 'evangelical atheist' such discussions here would serve my interests well, giving me the opportunity to present my case in a way that can't reasonably be objected to, since I am only answering challenges. I'm not evangelical though, so if anyone perceives harm in what I am saying, I am easy to get onto other topics.

I have no-and there can be no-argument with faith; and short of a revelation the best argument for any position based on faith is the behavior of the believers. Disclaimer: no matter how nice you are, it won't change my mind; if your beliefs have good consequences, that is nice, but good consequences don't make something true. I'll allow they may make something desireable, but my character is not constituted to believing something because it would be nice if it were true. More the opposite, my desire to believe something is true I take as a sign that I need to be more careful about being objective.

I appreciate the sincere welcomes. I even welcome the arguments, I'm just a little nervous about getting into them in a place where debating the truth of the religion of Muslims might not be appreciated. To me, arguing is like a sport, I enjoy it, and I think we all benefit from the mental exercise and friendly sparring, but I don't want anyone to get hurt by it or become angry.

I don't want to lose access to the knowledge here over pointless debates. This forum seems to be more tolerant than some Christian forums I've visited where the ban hammer seems to drop quickly on anyone who openly disagrees with the majority, but I haven't been around here long enough to be sure where the limits are and I feel like I'm already testing them.