Hi, everyone! I am an atheist in the USA, and I've joined this site so I have a place to come when I have questions about Islam and Muslims. I'm not here to try to talk anyone out of their beliefs, although I do not agree with the beliefs of the majority on this site, I strongly believe in the freedom of conscience to choose what you hold sacred, in peace.
I'm not looking to be converted either, if Allah exists, he will have to see to that himself.
I'm exposed to a lot of conservative Christians (and some liberal atheists) who have a low opinion or fear of Islam. I don't share that opinion, but I may share some of their claims on occasion to find out what your response is. It is not my intent to offend anyone by doing so, I am genuinely seeking answers.
I have many friends who are Bantus from Somalia who are Muslims, but I have more contact with the children than the adults. The adults may be good scholars of Islam, but their children's English is much better. I feel I will be able to get answers better expressed in English here.
Thanks in advance for letting me participate in your forum; I look forward to productive conversations.
Thanks! I don't intend to bring up the existence of Allah, but I will respond to remarks about my lack of belief being unreasonable. I will take such comments as an invitation to a dialogue. I don't think it is very reasonable to insult my position and expect me not to respond.
I haven't insulted your position, I have no regards to it!
It hasn't been established that there is a first cause, perhaps existence has always existed, just not always in the current form. Some people think the Big Bang theory means everything came from nothing, but all the science tells us is that we don't know what the universe was like before the Big Bang, only that it was very small compared to how big it is now. I don't know if there was ever true non-existence, and if there was, I don't know how or why that changed...although there is some math that suggests if there were true nothingness, it would be unstable. There are an infinite number of ways for there to be something, only one way for there to be absolutely nothing.
I have no idea what this means, it is nonsensical at best. Existence hasn't always existed and you can't prove beyond theorizing one way or the other do two unprovable theories nullify one another? Your reasons will always come down to personal beliefs and convictions at the end of the day. One thing for certain mankind hasn't always been in existence, and there is a question of origins and a drive forward that should cover billions of biochemical, physiological and higher reticular function that goes unaccounted for 'scientifically' that will render any stance a fairy tale at best.. what it comes down to, is which belief system is more satisfactory to the heart and mind? it certainly doesn't render your position sound, provable or even scientific!
I don't know what preceded the Big Bang (more like an expansion, but we seem to be stuck with the name), and neither does anyone else. Many people are certain their particular creation story is the true one, but certainty does not equal knowledge. I respect your right to your belief, and I do not expect you to agree with me, or to persuade you. I observe that we've never found a cause for something that was supernatural, and I conclude that it's natural causes, all the way down. I could be wrong, but if you want to make my position out to be unreasonable, it will take more than throw-away remarks I am supposed to suffer in silence: you will have to enter into a dialogue with me. Totally up to you folks, my reason for being here isn't to convince anyone they shouldn't believe in Allah.
Again another nonsensical paragraph with alot of padding and no morsels! What is natural by your definition anyway? it is but an imaginary standard by which things are measured or compared. If we were all born cyclops that would be your definition of 'natural' .. in fact natural is quite possessive of those qualities you'd otherwise deem 'supernatural' if you were the one putting it together, give it the drive forward and the freedom to act of its own volition, given that, it is exactly what happens in your body and in the universe around the clock seemingly effortless has somehow dulled your senses to a false sense of acceptance, like it is owed you somehow.. If you'd lose a single enzyme like iduronate-2-sulfatase you'd pay the upwards of $400,000 to have it synthesized and introduced to your body by some sort of vector and you'd gladly pay it too (and in fact that is exactly how much it costs) to treat someone with Hunter' syndrome yearly!
You'd never think of a single enzyme let alone the millions working for you around the clock that you'd otherwise deem 'natural' and science as advanced as you think it is as a crux of your very ailing argument, can't find a cure for the common cold let alone offer answers to the origins of life!
I love my Bantu friends, they rely on me to give them good advice for living in America and they trust me with their children. I feel obliged to take their beliefs into account because my advice won't be helpful if I suggest things that are non-starters because they conflict with Islam. So I will have questions about that.
this is a non-sequitur!
There is a lot of bigotry against Muslims in my country, especially since 9/11. People make big overgeneralizations about Muslims that concern me, we are in wars that I consider ill-advised, and there is a lot of paranoia. I seek information from Muslims because I like to be right, and getting my information from the source will make me right more often. I am not a champion of Islam, though. Every religion has its bad eggs who use their religon to justify crimes and oppression, and being able to be turned to this purpose easily is a flaw of Islam, in my opinion. However, it is a flaw shared by most other religions as well, and at least one secular philosophy (communism). I don't hold the vast majority of Muslims accountable for the crimes of a tiny minority, any more than I condemn my Lutheran or Episcopal neighbor for the crimes of the KKK or the IRA or the Lord's Army. When I hear people stay bigoted things about Muslims, I do speak up.
It is inconsequential what people think of Islam or Muslims.. we're not in existence to coax people into loving us.. that is neither the purpose of life nor should it be a worry to the Muslim mind!
I have great hope for an Islamic Enlightentment that reconciles Islam to the modern world without compromising what is best in Islam. That's really your business though, not mine. I don't think it's the kind of thing that can be successfully engineered, if it happens it will happen organically, from within. I realize that opinion will probably not win me many friends here, but I am being honest with you. I hope similar things for my own country, that some day we will stop treating all problems as military problems just because we have a really strong military. This will never happen as long as we think things will change if we just elect the right people to run our government. It will only happen when we stop letting our government convince us that we have to go to war, and stop turning a blind eye to the forceful tactics used to meddle with other countries. I want peace and liberty for all people, but it's something they have to take for themselves, not something we can impose because we have the most planes and guns.
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا يُنْفِقُونَ أَمْوَالَهُمْ لِيَصُدُّوا عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۚ فَسَيُنْفِقُونَهَا ثُمَّ تَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ حَسْرَةً ثُمَّ يُغْلَبُونَ ۗ وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَىٰ جَهَنَّمَ يُحْشَرُونَ {36} [Pickthal 8:36] Lo! those who disbelieve spend their wealth in order that they may debar (men) from the way of Allah. They will spend it, then it will become an anguish for them, then they will be conquered. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto hell,
The result of unjust wars, and occupations is that is will render the oppressors nothing but financial and human loss which they'll suffer of in this life and according to Islamic beliefs the hereafter as well.. So I say bring it on.. Afghanistan has been the graveyard of Empires though they've nothing of their own admission but men and rocks: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...ard-of-empires
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-12-07/w...an?_s=PM:WORLD
from Alex the great, to the Mongols, to the Brits, to the Russians and soon to be the final nail in America's coffin. You can't send effete novices against an ancient people or foster hypocrites in our midst to appease your own kind!
Sorry that turned into a rant, I guess I am passionate about these things. I don't agree 100% with any religion (obviously) but I strongly believe in the rights of conscience, of freedom of belief, and of free speech. In the current political climate of the USA and Europe, that puts me on the side of peaceful Muslims more often than it puts me on the side of those I call 'Christianists' (as opposed to the tolerant, decent, Christian) who are quick to see those rights as an obstacle when they are paranoid that every Muslim immigrant is part of a plot to impose Sharia law on the USA. I hope I haven't offended anyone, I tend to talk religion in the same way that I talk politics, I don't mean to make anyone's heart hurt. In this thread I'm still mainly trying to communicate who I am. If who I am is a problem, best to find out early, I guess. In other threads I probably won't be so talkative, and other people won't be as focused on my theological issues anyway
Muslims immigrants do better than the local yokels according to the american govt. Middle Eastern immigrants were highly educated, with 49 percent holding at least a bachelor's degree, compared to 28 percent of natives.
Median earnings for Middle Eastern men were $39,000 a year compared to $38,000 for native workers.
they tend to be better-educated than native U.S. residents — about half hold bachelor's degrees, compared to 28 percent of natives. They also perform as well economically as natives — 30- and 40-year-old Middle Eastern males with a college education have the same median income as natives, and Middle East immigrants are more likely be self-employed.
Middle Eastern Immigrants in U.S. Educated, Prosperous, Study Says
Gannett News Service, August 15, 2002
(Also ran in Arizona Republic - 8/15)
WASHINGTON — Middle Eastern immigrants in the United States are well educated, earn more money than most Americans and are predominantly Muslim, according to a report released Wednesday.
They also are among the nation's fastest-growing immigrant groups, according to the report issued by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, a think tank that supports reducing the number of immigrants to the United States.
The report says the number of Middle Eastern immigrants increased from fewer than 200,000 in 1970 to almost 1.5 million in 2000. The overall number of foreign-born residents in the United States tripled to 31 million over the same period.
The report offers a rare portrait of an immigrant group that has received intense scrutiny and negative publicity since the Sept. 11 attacks.
Project MAPS, a survey of "Muslims in the American Public Square" conducted in 2001-2002 by researchers at Georgetown University, found that 86 percent of all Muslim professionals were concentrated in three careers: engineering, computer science, and medicine. Law, law enforcement, and politics accounted for a minuscule 0.6 percent. American Muslims, some demographers say, have also been voting well below their numbers in the population -- registering to vote at only half the national rate, according to the 2001 American Religious Identification Survey [PDF], a project of the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. "If they ever did play to their weight" in the electoral arena and in Washington, Muslims "would be a much more considerable force in public policy-making," says Steve Clemons, a Democrat who directs the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation in Washington.
I do understand that...but in the USA and Europe, it is unlikely that any of your children will fail to survive, if you have eight children, 99% in 30 years you will still have eight children. With that kind of survival rate, averaging three children per family is plenty to ensure the survival of the species, and if our population dips we can always have more children to solve the problem. Of course I would not dream of taking away someone's right to have children...but I think it should be up to the family to decide how many children they want to have and when to have them. I hear 'whatever Allah wills' as an argument against contraception, but surely contraception only works if 'Allah wills it' too?
Zafran, would I be correct in thinking that you would prefer Muslim families have many children, but you would not think Islam condemns one that uses a contraception method to have a smaller family?
Afifa approved my hijab question, thanks Afifa! It is in the Discovering Islam section.
It all depends on the intention of the individual and why they want to use contraception.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Yahya Suleiman, I followed your link, thanks for providing it. I appreciate the intent of consolidating all of your arguments, although I didn't get very far through it; I accept that you didn't calculate it to be insulting to atheists, I accept your disclaimer on the matter. However, I found it to be very insulting and unfair anyway, and don't see a reason to subject myself to it.
I find it gratifying that there are those on this forum who ask me what I think instead of telling me; and follow the Law of Charity in assuming that my disagreements are sincere and reflect my best understanding rather than being 'evasions' as you assume. It is possible to disagree with you honestly (really!), calling something others say an 'evasion' implies that they know you're right but are using an 'escape hatch' to avoid admitting it. If I think you're right about something we've previously disagreed on, I will change my position, and thank you for helping me be more right. I don't care about winning debates, I care about discovering truth, or at least getting as close as I can to it with my meager human intellect and perception. Again, I am grateful that anyone shows an interest in finding out what I really think instead of informing of it, but I don't expect that to be true of everyone.
It's actually one of the things I find irritating about some who argue against Islam. They find some 'sword verses' or something from the Qur'an onlline and then go about saying Muslims who don't want to take over the US government if they can aren't being 'true Muslims'. It's like me telling Jews or Christians that if they don't stone disobedient children to death they aren't being 'true Jews or Christians'. A religion isn't just its scriptures, it's also its people. They are alive, they breathe, they don't all agree on every jot and tittle of every surah of a pretty large body of literature. Islam isn't inherently at odds with science and modernity unless Muslims collectively make it so. I can't tell you what your religion means, no matter how much I read of the Qur'an and Hadiths, even if I learn Arabic. Even if I became an Islamic scholar, even a Muslim, my voice would only be one among hundreds of millions; and the most I can hope is a better understanding than most. I can never have a better understanding of the entirety of a living religion than the sum of all the people in it; because in large part all those people determine what the religion means. In the case of Islam the Qur'an and Hadiths provide the shores for a surging sea of people, but shores aren't precise in the face of the tides.
I try to know my limitations and understand that any victory I may think I gain may later turn out to have been a loss that I didn't understand fully at the time...and when I've lost, it can later turn out that I was victorious after all. I strive for rationality because that is the horse I think can best help me keep from falling too far behind the truth. It may not be the right horse, but I know certainty can't be trusted in the long run because it can't admit mistake if it goes off the course, it will just keep going in the wrong direction forever...and surely there is only one right direction and a multitude of wrong ones; so I'll stick with a horse that keeps looking around and changes heading if it notices the scenery doesn't match where it's supposed to be.
The Vale's Lilly, I see you are comfortable making up my side of the conversation, so I'll leave you to it.
your side has been quit plethoric in fact for the mere few words I offered not as invitation for a dialogue but mere commentary on glaring misinformation. Nonetheless our comments are a direct reply to what you've proposed and I stand by my first statement I am not looking for a dialogue, rather correct what you view as 'scientific' for what it actually is, your own personal belief system!
best,
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Mister Agenda, the reason I call your exhausted and predictable original argument an evasion is because, whatever the intentions of the person making it, that's still technically what it is. Diverting an issue by sending it into another issue which couldn't prove a danged thing about the real topic even if it's true is an evasion by definition. And the reason I get so fed up is that people always do exactly what you just did and what you will no doubt do again if we continue this: ignore what I actually said and make their counter-argument something they're pretending (or at the very least they overlooked) that I haven't already responded to it in advance. I take the trouble to already explain why it is not only logical to believe that God wouldn't have to be part of this chain of causation but that any other belief is downright illogical, and what ever comes of it? Nothing, because it's like I never said anything at all. And now that I'm having to repeat myself (the chain of causation being referred to is a physical chain of physical events and God is by definition nonphysical) you're just going to respond, if at all, the same way that everyone else does: either by ignoring what I've said again yet again or by forcing yourself to misunderstand it and therefore misrepresent it.
It's always the same: everyone ALWAYS does this. How can I possibly not react with the frustration and confidence in my own arguments that I do? And how can you accuse me of arrogant overconfidence in my arguments when you just said, in the very same breath, "I suppose it IS easy to predict atheist responses. We don't have an assertion to back up. All we do is point out where your assertions don't add up"? That doesn't sound to me like it comes from a person who's being humble about the possibility of his own arguments being wrong. I never said mine were brilliant either: in fact, all I'm doing is pointing out the obvious. Even if I happen to be wrong, if you were in my position would you still not be acting, or at least thinking, the very same way? Can you not see why I can't stand to do this anymore unless someone allows me to practice dawah on them in the process? It's unendurable! EVERY DAY, AND WITH EVERY PERSON, IT'S THE SAME THING!! So unless you're willing to waive what you said about not wanting anyone to try to convert you, just stop right here.
P.S. If you're unwilling to finish the atheism article then don't even comment on it! Neither is mandatory but the two things must go hand in hand.
Last edited by IAmZamzam; 06-12-2011 at 07:46 PM.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
It all depends on the intention of the individual and why they want to use contraception.
That sounds reasonable. Someone who already has four children and wants to be able to send them all to a good school would have a good intention to use contraception to give the children they already have the best chance for success in life. A couple who agrees they should both finish college before having children so they can provide the best for their children when they have them would be okay. A couple who discovers they both have a recessive gene for a horrible disease or that the wife can't safely bear children (and they didn't discover this until after marriage) would be kinder to resign themselves to no children under the circumstances. But a couple who thinks children would cramp their lifestyle would only be using contraception for their own convenience, putting their personal desires above the will of Allah.
I only use the example to test if I'm in the neighborhood of correct teaching on this matter. I am not planning to advise anyone not to have children, but if they are going to college it may be better to wait until after to marry, or use contraception until the degree is achieved. Not always, some have enough family support that they don't have to worry about childcare while they take classes and do homework, but not everyone is so fortunate. It can be difficult to do well in college, especially if you are taking care of a baby at the same time. I want all and their children to have the best lives possible, with prosperity and a good education. I am not hearing any way the teachings of Islam conflict with this, which is more than I can say for the teachings of Catholicism on the matter.
I think my advice would be: If you want to pursue a career that requires a college degree, it will be more difficult and probably take longer if you are taking care of an infant at the same time. If you want to do both, you need to make sure you have a committment from others to give you a lot of help with the baby while you're a student, and also when you are in your first year of work when your benefits and leave will be limited. It is okay to focus on childcare if that's what you really want, not everyone has to get a job outside the home or go to college to get a good job, and you can be a stay-at-home mother if you are willing for you and your family to do without some luxuries. Many women stay home while their children are small and get jobs when all their children are going to school. There are lots of options, but you need to figure out which ones are right for you and your husband-to-be before you jump into things.
For some reason, I have several girls I've tutored for years getting close to graduating High School and getting close to marrying (one has already married and had her first baby before she graduated High School). I just want them to have a realistic idea of their options. In a couple of years it will be a crop of almost all boys, but I expect they won't have the same anxieties, with them I might have to break it to them that they can't count on all being soccer stars.
Thumbs up at that, not many people have that quality. Btw, how can a person who discovers the truth ever be a loser. Surely he is the ultimate winner.
Sorry I keep asking you questions, but how do you know that God doesnt exist ?
No worries, you've been quite respectful, I don't mind answering questions, it's the walls of text I'm getting tired of in a 'here I am, pleased to meet you' thread. I don't know that God doesn't exist. I don't believe that God does exist, like I don't believe you have a $100 bill in your left front pants pocket. I could be wrong about that. It's not that I believe you don't have a $100 bill in your left front pants pocket. Without more information, I just don't have a good reason to believe you do.
I don't believe a lot of things I've heard of exist. If God does exist, he seems to have a desire to not be too obstrusive, and been pretty successful at that in regards to me. I am truly sorry if I'm being dense on the matter, but I just don't see a good reason for me to believe God is a real being. If I'm wrong, and one of the thousands of gods people have believed in is real and will be cross with me after I'm dead for not figuring it out, I hope whoever it is will be merciful and understanding. I'm doing my best with what I've got.
your side has been quit plethoric in fact for the mere few words I offered not as invitation for a dialogue but mere commentary on glaring misinformation. Nonetheless our comments are a direct reply to what you've proposed and I stand by my first statement I am not looking for a dialogue, rather correct what you view as 'scientific' for what it actually is, your own personal belief system!
best,
You're not interested in a dialogue, and I am trying to oblige you, since you seem to think that not being in a dialogue involves being quite plethoric.
Keep it up, with practice I'm sure you can get not regarding someone's positon down to 50 words or less.
I am truly sorry if I'm being dense on the matter, but I just don't see a good reason for me to believe God is a real being. If I'm wrong, and one of the thousands of gods people have believed in is real and will be cross with me after I'm dead for not figuring it out, I hope whoever it is will be merciful and understanding. I'm doing my best with what I've got.
I believe there are many reasons to believe that God does exist..There is proof of his existence.
We do not see air nor do we see oxygen, how do you believe we humans came to know that air or oxygen exists?
If I may I ask, what is the purpous of life?
"Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).".."[Al Qur'aan 3:2]
P.S. If you're unwilling to finish the atheism article then don't even comment on it! Neither is mandatory but the two things must go hand in hand.
I believe I can comment or not comment on what I please. I didn't come here for the baiting.
A word of advice on your article: if you want atheists to read it, start with something true. It's like you wrote it for the express purpose of making sure atheists won't want to read it. I'm sure if I made a similar effort I could come up with something Muslims won't want to read either.
I'm sorry folks, I thought could answer questions honestly here without starting a big debate in the 'hello' thread. My apologies to everyone who was welcoming, but this isn't working out. I don't want to spend all my time defending my convictions and I don't want to ignore people. I just wanted to ask some questions about Islam; it wasn't my goal to make it about me. I realize it's a two-way street, but this is getting ridiculous. Again, I recognize it's not a majority, but it's enough to make it not worth it to be here. I'd understand all this if I started 'Why there's no such thing as Allah!' thread, but it feels like it's just the fact that I'm not a theist that's the problem. I'm sure getoffmyback didn't intend for a simple question to get so out-of-hand. I really have better things to do with my time. I wish all of you peaceful and happy lives.
If a mod would cancel my account, I would appreciate it. Vale and Yahya, I hope you enjoy your victorious feeling, from what you've posted so far, I get that you're the kind of people who think not being worth arguing with is winning.
You're not interested in a dialogue, and I am trying to oblige you, since you seem to think that not being in a dialogue involves being quite plethoric.
Keep it up, with practice I'm sure you can get not regarding someone's positon down to 50 words or less.
I must admit that tickled me a bit considering the compendiums of logorrhea that you've shared thus far =)
the question of the millennium shouldn't be on whether or not God exists.. it is whether or not there really is such a thing as a 'friendly atheist'..
best,
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I believe I can comment or not comment on what I please. I didn't come here for the baiting.
A word of advice on your article: if you want atheists to read it, start with something true. It's like you wrote it for the express purpose of making sure atheists won't want to read it. I'm sure if I made a similar effort I could come up with something Muslims won't want to read either.
I'm sorry folks, I thought could answer questions honestly here without starting a big debate in the 'hello' thread. My apologies to everyone who was welcoming, but this isn't working out. I don't want to spend all my time defending my convictions and I don't want to ignore people. I just wanted to ask some questions about Islam; it wasn't my goal to make it about me. I realize it's a two-way street, but this is getting ridiculous. Again, I recognize it's not a majority, but it's enough to make it not worth it to be here. I'd understand all this if I started 'Why there's no such thing as Allah!' thread, but it feels like it's just the fact that I'm not a theist that's the problem. I'm sure getoffmyback didn't intend for a simple question to get so out-of-hand. I really have better things to do with my time. I wish all of you peaceful and happy lives.
If a mod would cancel my account, I would appreciate it. Vale and Yahya, I hope you enjoy your victorious feeling, from what you've posted so far, I get that you're the kind of people who think not being worth arguing with is winning.
Greetings of peace
Please do not feel offended, you do not have to leave.
Also please do continue to ask your questions and members will try their best to answer with respect.
We can all share our views and then correct one another with respect insha'Allaah it is only fair both ways..
This is a place which has many different feelings which we have to get used to
if that makes sense i apologise if i didnt
"Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).".."[Al Qur'aan 3:2]
I believe I can comment or not comment on what I please. I didn't come here for the baiting.
A word of advice on your article: if you want atheists to read it, start with something true. It's like you wrote it for the express purpose of making sure atheists won't want to read it. I'm sure if I made a similar effort I could come up with something Muslims won't want to read either.
I'm sorry folks, I thought could answer questions honestly here without starting a big debate in the 'hello' thread. My apologies to everyone who was welcoming, but this isn't working out. I don't want to spend all my time defending my convictions and I don't want to ignore people. I just wanted to ask some questions about Islam; it wasn't my goal to make it about me. I realize it's a two-way street, but this is getting ridiculous. Again, I recognize it's not a majority, but it's enough to make it not worth it to be here. I'd understand all this if I started 'Why there's no such thing as Allah!' thread, but it feels like it's just the fact that I'm not a theist that's the problem. I'm sure getoffmyback didn't intend for a simple question to get so out-of-hand. I really have better things to do with my time. I wish all of you peaceful and happy lives.
If a mod would cancel my account, I would appreciate it. Vale and Yahya, I hope you enjoy your victorious feeling, from what you've posted so far, I get that you're the kind of people who think not being worth arguing with is winning.
No, please stay!
I'm interested to hear your views on other topics. If you dislike a member's response, ignore them. That is what I do.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
It's entirely up to him, and I will be the first to understand if someone considers this board not worth coming to, but only if it's for the right reasons, and not because he himself made arguments that we naturally responded to and he couldn’t handle our reaction to the evasiveness of his responses. But just in case anyone here considers the martyrdom syndrome at work here having any basis in fact, let me show you yet again what he really did:
format_quote Originally Posted by Myself
Positing a uncaused agent outside of physical reality (which, by the way, would remove it from the automatic, or at least self-evident, necessity of causation for itself, as this chain of events we came out of and formulate cosmological arguments about is physical)....
format_quote Originally Posted by Mister Agenda
If you think I'm surprised you've heard the obvious criticism of this assertion, you are mistaken. I am only surprised it continues to be asserted anyway...The only reason the argument 'everything requires a cause' requires a 'causeless cause' to get things rolling is that otherwise the argument rules out an ultimate cause. Saying there's a universal rule with an exception just for the thing you want to be true is trying to have your cake and eat it too, also known as 'begging the question' or assuming the thing you're trying to prove. If you don't assert everything requiring a cause, you can posit Allah without contradiction, but there is also then no contradiction in the universe itself not requiring a cause.
format_quote Originally Posted by Myself
The reason I get so fed up is that people always do exactly what you just did and what you will no doubt do again if we continue this: ignore what I actually said and make their counter-argument something they're pretending (or at the very least they overlooked) that I haven't already responded to it in advance. I take the trouble to already explain why it is not only logical to believe that God wouldn't have to be part of this chain of causation but that any other belief is downright illogical, and what ever comes of it? Nothing, because it's like I never said anything at all. And now that I'm having to repeat myself (the chain of causation being referred to is a physical chain of physical events and God is by definition nonphysical) you're just going to respond, if at all, the same way that everyone else does: either by ignoring what I've said again yet again or by forcing yourself to misunderstand it and therefore misrepresent it.
After which, of course, came another response from Agenda that did exactly what I predicted and ignored the issue yet again.
If he’s still reading this, and if it’s any consolation, I have very long passed the point where I’m the least bit capable of getting any sense of victory out of the same-old same-old. The only victory that could ever come would be me somehow managing to get through to someone in one of these conversations, and even that would not be my victory but theirs.
Mister Agenda was not hounded by anybody and he had the option from day one of not participating in this supposedly enforced and unavoidable debate. He has no one to blame for the way he feels but himself.
I try as hard as I can not to be so confident of my own arguments but when all ANYONE can ever do is pretend I haven't made them or pretend I made different ones, even after I've brought this fact up, can it really be easy for me???
Last edited by IAmZamzam; 06-12-2011 at 09:10 PM.
Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)
Chill out people...a person comes onto the forum to learn about Islam and some of us start jumping up and down like they have never met a person with a different belief.
Some brothers and sisters here are coming across as rather pompous which is not the way of the Prophet (pbuh). Very counter productive indeed.
Mister Agenda, this is a diverse forum with lots of different personalities...some annoying (u know who u r), some great....I get ticked off too but we take it in our stride. Please dont let it stop you from searching for the truth. Stick around
I'm back, ruining my dramatic exit! I realized I was being immature. Really, this is no worse than a Christian forum, and I'm sure if I were a Muslim or Christian going to an atheist forum I would have similar issues. I don't like putting people on ignore, but if I feel that frustrated again I will take advantage of that option rather than abandoning a whole forum because I'm irritated by just a couple of people.
I feel like I need to limit my responses to personal questions and challenges though. I thought I was just responding to people, not trying to start arguments. My purpose here is to learn specific things I have questions about, and I don't think it will be fruitful to me to get sidetracked. Not easy for me, I try to give complete answers to questions I think are worth answering, which means more opportunity to say something someone can't stand hearing. I'll try to do better, though.
I don't belong to any Christian forums anymore because it really isn't worth it to me to stick around because I'm already very familiar with them: many Christians know less about their religion than I do, but I was raised in a family that very serious about religion and read the Bible from a young age. I was also exposed to a variety of denomnations of Christianity. When I left those discussions I felt I wasn't missing much.
This is a different situation. I haven't read the Qur'an through (I started once but someone stole my copy!) and I'm an outsider to the religion. If I walk off I will need to find another source of information anyway. Even if I wind up putting half the forum on ignore because I've gotten testy in my old age, I will value the rest because there are Muslims in my life that I really care about and I feel I owe it to them to make an effort to understand their faith better than I do now. All kinds of little issues come up with the Bantu children: some are simple, like make sure there's no pork in their food if we stop at a restaurant. Some are trickier, like what to suggest for them to do if a dog comes up to them while we're at the park or if they're out walking. These are the kinds of things I'm looking for guidance on. Just little stuff, I'm not here to prove I'm smarter than anyone. I'll try to be better about letting myself get sidetracked.
Mods, I retract my request for my account to be cancelled, I was being hasty.
Chill out people...a person comes onto the forum to learn about Islam and some of us start jumping up and down like they have never met a person with a different belief.
Some brothers and sisters here are coming across as rather pompous which is not the way of the Prophet (pbuh). Very counter productive indeed.
Mister Agenda, this is a diverse forum with lots of different personalities...some annoying (u know who u r), some great....I get ticked off too but we take it in our stride. Please dont let it stop you from searching for the truth. Stick around
I came back and read your post and took it to heart. Thanks!
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I must admit that tickled me a bit considering the compendiums of logorrhea that you've shared thus far =)
i apologise if i didnt 
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