Friendly Atheist

format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм

Greetings of peace


Please do not feel offended, you do not have to leave.

Also please do continue to ask your questions and members will try their best to answer with respect.
We can all share our views and then correct one another with respect insha'Allaah it is only fair both ways..

This is a place which has many different feelings which we have to get used to

if that makes sense i apologise if i didnt

Thanks, Pearl of Wisom! You are well-named. I will give myself more time to get used to how the forum works, I probably should have lurked longer to get a better feel for the dynamics before I opened my mouth.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pєαяℓ σf Wιѕ∂σм

Greetings of peace



I believe there are many reasons to believe that God does exist..There is proof of his existence.

We do not see air nor do we see oxygen, how do you believe we humans came to know that air or oxygen exists?


If I may I ask, what is the purpous of life?

I don't have trouble accepting the existence of invisible things that can be detected with our other senses or with instruments designed for the purpose. Air is very easy, I could blow in your face and make you blink if you truly doubted it. I even accept the existence of the electrons that are needed to make my words appear, and gamma ray bursts from billions of light years away. We didn't even know of those until we had satellites, but they've always been there. If God exists, he is not like these sorts of things.

I think we have to find our own meaning in our own lives. We don't have a purpose the way a hammer has a purpose as a tool for the one who owns it. But we can have purpose of our own. I find being kind to children and animals gives me all the purpose I need; everything else is icing on the cake.

Disclaimer for Vale and Vahya: this second part in particular is my own philosophy. I'm not making a universal claim or trying to start an argument over the meaning of life, especially yours. Find your own.

format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman

member X, I'm very sorry if it comes across as pompous and unIslamic when I show little tolerance for having my words be ignored by someone who is only pretending to respond to them the 912th time such an event happens to me here, but there is no thread in which anyone should have to put up with that, even in the "introduce yourself" forum. There is no such thing as an inappropriate time or place for standing up for oneself, unless maybe it's in the middle of the evacuation of a burning building or something. I am willing to drop the original issue with Agenda but I think you owe both me and vale's lily an apology. (You may as well have used our names for all the subtlety your post had!)

I wouldnt have said it like that, someone else sabotaged my post!

Look, none of us mean any harm but sometimes the way we come across (me included!), can end up hurting and offending people. I am sorry if that post has offended you or sister Lily, but Mister Agenda has been offended too. He also deserves an apology.

The Prophet said like for your brother what you like for yourself.

We should take such opportunities to reflect and contemplate, to re-check ourselves and correct and improve ourselves. We all have room for improvement!

May Allaah forgive us and guide us all.

Perhaps we can go back and get a fresh start. I apologize to all concerned for any offense originating with me and I forgive anyone who has offended me, and I will try not to respond to posts at all if I can't do so nicely. I apologize in advance if I fail to live up to my desire to do better, sometimes I fall short of my mark. Do not be shy about reminding me of my desire to do better if that happens, please.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/ Peace



Welcome to the forum .

I always wonder how it's possible for anyone to be an athiest ? Just see & think about the creations of God Almigthy , is not that enough to believe in a Supreme power ?

I can understand if one does not believe in any specific religion but how one can beleive that we the human , the Universe ...all were created without a creator ..... how this belief is logical / possible??

uh , just noticed that u are upset and want to leave forum
I hope , u will change ur decistion .

Feel free to ask about Islam .

Thanks, Muslim Woman. I did change my mind about leaving the forum, I acted without thought and figured I hadn't been here long enough for anyone to be sorry to see me go, but sentiments such as yours convinced me I was wrong about that.

I know it can be difficult for people who have believed all their life to wrap their head around someone having such completely different notions of the world. And again, I haven't come to argue about that, I'm not interested in persuading anyone against their beliefs.

To partially answer your question, the word 'creation' does imply 'creator', in English and many other languages. If I am correct the universe isn't really a 'creation' at all, but more like an event or ongoing process.

There is a skeptics forum called JREF (James Randi Educational Foundation) where there are lots of people, including myself, willing to answer these sorts of questions at length. Here, I think I've written enough about why I don't believe the same things as Muslims do about the supernatural for people to understand where I'm coming from, and that level of understanding is all I'm looking for.

Nobody thinks the way they do becaue they think they're wrong. We all think we're right. Fortunately, we don't have to think the same way to get along. I am comfortable with you thinking I am foolish in my beliefs as long as you don't rub my face in it.

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

for some reason this thread reminds of spider man: 'your friendly neighborhood atheist-man'

Atheist-man, atheist-man;
Does whatever an atheist can.
Can he talk? Listen, bub,
He's got logghorea in his blood!
Look out! Here comes the atheist-mannn!

A little up-thread I mentioned in passing that I am wondering how to address the dog issue with Muslim children. I have had trouble with them kicking at dogs or throwing things at them to keep them away; or worse, running from them. When I'm close, I just intercept any dogs. To give an example: we were at the park and a woman walking her dogs came near us. The dogs were leashed and easy to avoid, but the children kicked at them anyway...not making contact, just sort of 'shooing' them.

There are two issues here: the best way to handle dogs, and the best way to handle their owners. People who keep dogs as pets usually love them and can be offended at hostility toward them. They won't understand why someone would act like that toward their pets, and the children's behavior toward dogs isn't helpful to them having a good impression of them.

I'm somewhat familiar with the teaching on this matter from reading other threads: dogs may not be kept as pets, but they should still be treated with kindness. I've heard elsewhere that touching a dog requires some sort of purification after, but that may be a Somali Bantu practice, not a general Islamic one. If there is purification required, I would like to know what is involved, it will help me better judge to what lengths I should go to keep dogs away from the children.

They have started to follow my more common-sense advice, like don't run from dogs (they will always chase someone who runs), except for the younger ones who are really afraid of them. Most dogs they encounter are friendly and expect to be petted or ignored, they can be startled by sudden actions they aren't expecting, which could lead to getting bitten. So far, no one has gotten bitten, and I've always been able to handle any dogs we run into when I'm with them, but they've told me about being chased, jumped on, and so forth.

If they can't touch the dogs at all, the best I can tell them is to hold still until the dog goes away, or if it is leashed, just ignore it. If all they have to do is wash their hands after or something, I can get them used to dogs so they aren't afraid of them anymore.

Any suggestions on the matter are welcome.

format_quote Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

A little up-thread I mentioned in passing that I am wondering how to address the dog issue with Muslim children. I have had trouble with them kicking at dogs or throwing things at them to keep them away; or worse, running from them. When I'm close, I just intercept any dogs. To give an example: we were at the park and a woman walking her dogs came near us. The dogs were leashed and easy to avoid, but the children kicked at them anyway...not making contact, just sort of 'shooing' them.

There are two issues here: the best way to handle dogs, and the best way to handle their owners. People who keep dogs as pets usually love them and can be offended at hostility toward them. They won't understand why someone would act like that toward their pets, and the children's behavior toward dogs isn't helpful to them having a good impression of them.

I'm somewhat familiar with the teaching on this matter from reading other threads: dogs may not be kept as pets, but they should still be treated with kindness. I've heard elsewhere that touching a dog requires some sort of purification after, but that may be a Somali Bantu practice, not a general Islamic one. If there is purification required, I would like to know what is involved, it will help me better judge to what lengths I should go to keep dogs away from the children.

They have started to follow my more common-sense advice, like don't run from dogs (they will always chase someone who runs), except for the younger ones who are really afraid of them. Most dogs they encounter are friendly and expect to be petted or ignored, they can be startled by sudden actions they aren't expecting, which could lead to getting bitten. So far, no one has gotten bitten, and I've always been able to handle any dogs we run into when I'm with them, but they've told me about being chased, jumped on, and so forth.

If they can't touch the dogs at all, the best I can tell them is to hold still until the dog goes away, or if it is leashed, just ignore it. If all they have to do is wash their hands after or something, I can get them used to dogs so they aren't afraid of them anymore.

Any suggestions on the matter are welcome.

Well I'm a new Muslim who happens to love dogs (and has two), so I am at odds with most of the brothers and sisters here. I've agonized over this issue many times. At one point I was about to abandon Islam because of it. I've since decided that I'm just going to have to disagree with the general consensus about dogs.

I don't think Allah is going to care much as long as I worship Him. Dogs are trivial compared to the greatness of the Creator.

format_quote Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

I've heard elsewhere that touching a dog requires some sort of purification after, but that may be a Somali Bantu practice, not a general Islamic one. If there is purification required, I would like to know what is involved, it will help me better judge to what lengths I should go to keep dogs away from the children.

Touching dog is not impure, dog's saliva is impure (najis).
It was narrated from Abu Hurairoh, the Prophet Muhammad Sholallohu ‘alaihi wa sallam said, "Purify a bowl of someone when dog licked is by washing seven times”. And according to Ahmad and Muslim narrated mentioned,”One of them use of soil".
(Hadith Narrated by Muslim, 279, 91, Ahmad two / 427)

This rule applies not only to vessels after being licked by a dog, but also to other things such as our own skin.
Dog saliva contains their own pathogens which are harmful to human. During the time of Rasulullah there was no detergent to wash bowl, and dust is now known through science to contain antiseptic material which inhibit pathogens.

So touching dogs in itself does not make our skin impure, unless if you also decide to kiss the dogs or let the dogs lick you.

format_quote Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

A little up-thread I mentioned in passing that I am wondering how to address the dog issue with Muslim children. I have had trouble with them kicking at dogs or throwing things at them to keep them away; or worse, running from them. When I'm close, I just intercept any dogs. To give an example: we were at the park and a woman walking her dogs came near us. The dogs were leashed and easy to avoid, but the children kicked at them anyway...not making contact, just sort of 'shooing' them.

Sadly. there are many muslim children who do not receive good education in Islam, and bad treatment of dogs by children may be a case of that. But you also should consider that many children who are not familiar with dogs are scared by dogs and they may react aggressively towards the dogs.

Well I should point out that my dogs also serve a practical purpose: they guard the house when I am gone, and they guard me while I sleep at night. So they're not only for companionship (though that is their primary purpose).

Really though, this is a trivial issue and I probably shouldn't even mention it anymore.

Hello Mister Agenda,
Welcome to IB.
Thanks,
Gator.

format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman

Two things:

1. As far as I know there is nothing in the scripture saying dogs are inherently evil or that we're allowed to abuse them. All it says is that we're allowed to keep them only if it's for some practical purpose like having a watchdog and not merely for companionship.
2. Do not--repeat, do NOT--go to the JREF forum under any circumstances. I left that place for a reason. I suppose there must be atheistic message boards out there that don't make the conflicts in this thread look like the music video for "Shiny Happy People" by REM, but the JREF forum is certainly not one of them! It's a festering heap of abuse and mockery, like so much of the atheistic/"skeptical" community's behavior toward believers these days. For all I know it might have changed for the better in the last year or so since I've been there but I wouldn't hold my breath. If Mister Agenda has been treated well there then that can only be for one of three reasons: because he's an atheist himself (they of course don't get it nearly as bad), he hasn't paid attention to the way 4/5 of the discussion of anything religious or supernatural goes, or he was danged lucky.

Thanks, Yahya, I'm thinking the dog thing may be more manageable than it appeared to be at first. I will talk to the parents about getting the children used to dogs so they won't be so afraid of them. If they approve, I'll be sure to use a dog that is not a 'licker'.

I'm not sure Muslim Woman is interested in that much detail, I suggested JREF if she is because it is not explicitly an atheist site and she would not be the only Muslim member, but atheists are certainly in the majority there. Maybe Belief.net (I think that's it, I don't go there much anymore) would be better, more neutral (minority atheist), but it was kind of dead last time I went there, I don't know if she would get much of a response.

I'll assume she isn't interested unless I hear otherwise.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

Sadly. there are many muslim children who do not receive good education in Islam, and bad treatment of dogs by children may be a case of that. But you also should consider that many children who are not familiar with dogs are scared by dogs and they may react aggressively towards the dogs.

Thanks, Ramadhan (and everyone else who helped with my question), I'm sure you are right. It's a minor problem, but making small things better adds up over time. I am better informed to enter into a discussion with the parents now about this and I appreciate the help.