Friendly Atheist

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

I actually was not going to argue about other scriptures, as you said, I may not know much about them, and especially since this thread may not be appropriate thread to do it.
Our discussion started off when I presented the verses of the qur'an that correspond with your statement about the origin of our universe, and ones which you dismissed as being coincidental and that Muhammad (pbuh) made the right bets, and you stated that the ancient chinese and greeks have also made similar accurate belief about the origin of the universe. First, I wanted to know more about those chinese and greek beliefs, as I have not heard about them, so therefore I inquired about the authentic details.
I also made the argument that the "bets" that Muhammad (pbuh) successfully made were not standalone statements, rather part and parcel of much bigger package, this is to respond to your dismissal of the verses.

As for the hindu scriptures, it remind me of another post (the last post of this page of this now closed thread http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...r-quran-2.html):

I actually don't mind discussing possibility that the Qur'an might not be of divine origin, as long as we present details, facts and evidence, and not merely throw around general statements such as "it's a book made up by man as a collection of stories to make man feel good about himself", which in my opinion shows the lack of even minutae knowledge of the issue, and not helpful in advancing the discussion.

Don't worry, we've had enough fun with other atheist members here
Just peruse the past threads in the comparative religion section.

Oh good, I'm glad it isn't all on me.

Thanks for the tip.

I may revisit your earlier post later. I trust you when you say you won't be offended, provided I'm not intentionally being offensive.

format_quote Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

I'm sorry to hear that. Everyone has worth, and often the ones who feel they don't have more than many who are very certain they are worthy. Some people devalue things like kindness and compassion, although they're worth more than gold.

Well I used to have crippling low self esteem but it has gotten a lot better over the years. I still have my moments of doubt and insecurity (who doesn't?), but nothing like I did in my teens and early 20's.

Like they say, it gets better.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

[FONT="Book Antiqua"][COLOR="Black"][SIZE="3"]So you agree that the qur'an verses I mentioned are very close to the mark.
Now, how can this be? Let's say you don't believe in the divine origin of the qur'an, so the source was this completely illiterate man known as 100% honest even by his enemies in the 7th century desert arabia. So you are saying that this single man practically made statements about the origin and initial state of the universe that is only confirmed by edwin hubble some 1,400 years later?

Looking into this, focusing on sura 51:47, I find that prior to confirmation that the universe is expanding, this sura was never translated with the word 'expanding' and currently, English seems to be the only language in which it is translated as 'expanding'. For instance, the 1934 translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali has it as: 'With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.' I also ran across some verses which were taken as supporting that the universe would eventually cease expanding and start to contract. Although this was once a popular hypothesis, it did not survive the test of observation. For about 13 years we've know the universe is not only expanding, it is expanding at an ever-increasing, and will never contract, only continue to expand forever.

Given the acknowledged difficulty of translating the Qur'an into other languages because of its poetic nature, it is clearly easy to interpret in different ways. Although it is well-preserved in Arabic, it seems translation is susceptible to changing with the times. Attempting to tie sacred scriptures to science, which is always in the process of updating itself as it discovers new evidence that requires modification of what was previously thought, seems to me to short-change both the sacredness of the scriptures and the aims of science. Faith does not need validation from science, and the idea of the different faiths attempting to score points off each other by winning a contest of 'which scriptures align with science best'...I think it misses the true value of the writings. It is certainly not just Muslims who do this, Christians are quick to pour over their scriptures when scientists discover something new so they can say 'See, it's in the Bible!'. I've seen Hindus make similar claims.

If the Qur'an is superior in spiritual matters, I don't see why it should also need to be a text on modern physics.

format_quote Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

Looking into this, focusing on sura 51:47, I find that prior to confirmation that the universe is expanding, this sura was never translated with the word 'expanding' and currently, English seems to be the only language in which it is translated as 'expanding'. For instance, the 1934 translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali has it as: 'With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.'

I am sure you even acknowledge that a translation can never do justice, so here it is several translation of the verse:

Sahih International
And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.
Muhsin Khan
With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.
Pickthall
We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Yusuf Ali
With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
Shakir
And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
Dr. Ghali
And the heaven (is also a sign). We have built it with (Our) Hands (i.e., Capability) and surely We are indeed extending (it) wide.

And if you read it after QS. 21:30

Sahih International
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?
Muhsin Khan
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
Pickthall
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?
Yusuf Ali
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
Shakir
Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?
Dr. Ghali
And have not the ones who disbelieved seen that the heavens and the earth were an integrated (mass), then We unseamed them, and of water We have made every living thing? Would they then not believe?

Tell me if there were even a single statement from any civilization that so accurately described the first state of the universe and its expansion?

format_quote Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

I also ran across some verses which were taken as supporting that the universe would eventually cease expanding and start to contract. Although this was once a popular hypothesis, it did not survive the test of observation. For about 13 years we've know the universe is not only expanding, it is expanding at an ever-increasing, and will never contract, only continue to expand forever.

The universe is expanding, but how do you know that at one point it will not contract and shrink back? The more favorable opinion is now it will extend forever, but unless you actually believe that scientists have 100% data and and are always 100% correct in their future predictions, you would certainly believe that opinions are subject to endless revisions when more data coming in?

format_quote Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

Given the acknowledged difficulty of translating the Qur'an into other languages because of its poetic nature, it is clearly easy to interpret in different ways.

Hence we only rely on the interpretations of the people and scholars who do have knowledge about Qur'an and ahadeeth, and not just on anyone.

format_quote Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

Although it is well-preserved in Arabic, it seems translation is susceptible to changing with the times.

Do you not find it unique and amazing that a living book, is 100% preserved?

format_quote Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

Attempting to tie sacred scriptures to science, which is always in the process of updating itself as it discovers new evidence that requires modification of what was previously thought, seems to me to short-change both the sacredness of the scriptures and the aims of science.

AFAIK, no one is trying to tie Qur'an to science. However, there are verses in the Qur'an that clearly is an observation of the universe. And if the verses are in contradiction of the 100% proven observations of the universe, then you can argue that the qur'an is not from the creator of the universe, right?

format_quote Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

Faith does not need validation from science, and the idea of the different faiths attempting to score points off each other by winning a contest of 'which scriptures align with science best'...I think it misses the true value of the writings.

In the Qur'an, Allah SWT tell us to "think" "read" "ponder", basically to use our observations of the natural and to use our common sense and intelligence to arrive at our faith. Islam is not based on blind faith like other religions.
There are many other stronger aspects of Qur'an that qualify it as being miraculous and proof that it is from the divine, and the scientific miracles is just a portion of it.

format_quote Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

It is certainly not just Muslims who do this, Christians are quick to pour over their scriptures when scientists discover something new so they can say 'See, it's in the Bible!'. I've seen Hindus make similar claims.

As I said in my previous comment and quoted a post from another member about hindu scriptures, they might have made one or two claims, but you close your eyes, and then open a page of hindu scripture or bible at random, and I can guarantee that you will find an error/contradictions/other things that prove it cannot be possibly from the creator of heavens and earth.

format_quote Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

If the Qur'an is superior in spiritual matters, I don't see why it should also need to be a text on modern physics.

No one has ever said qur'an is a text on modern physics. I think you are making up things.

I not only agree translation cannot do it justice, I don't doubt that in the original Arabic it is quite beautiful.

If you are interested in learning more about other religions, you should find a better teacher than me. I'm strictly an amateur in these matters.

Remember, I didn't come to argue, and especially not to argue ever-growing walls of text. That's how these things go. You can take my bowing out as a concession, if you like. As well as a mercy to the introduction forum where we may be setting some kind of record!

My apologies for not being a more worthy source of information. Peace.

I wasn't prepared for such a growing argument either. If you remember, initially all I did was putting in three Qur'an verses that correspond to the context of the creation process of the universe. I didn't expect you to take it and debate the verses

format_quote Originally Posted by Ramadhan

I wasn't prepared for such a growing argument either. If you remember, initially all I did was putting in three Qur'an verses that correspond to the context of the creation process of the universe. I didn't expect you to take it and debate the verses

Sorry about that! I'm not really complaining about your responses, I certainly jumped into it! If I seem bipolar, it's probably because I do like to chime in on arguments but don't have the motivation to hold up one side by myself for long these days. Plus, on this site in particular, I'm more interested in information I can use to help me better serve my refugee friends, and to find out the Muslim side of issues when I hear things that put them in a bad light. That last will be a challenge, it's hard to bring up bad mouthing or stereotypes of a group diplomatically to that group. I imagine it might be like a European American asking an African American if it's true that black people really like water melon. You're off on the wrong foot right from the start, even if it really is true (on average, and not saying that it is). Hopefully I won't have to bring those kinds of questions up myself, and can find them among the threads.