Google Earth Proves that the Prophet Muhammad (S) is RIGHT!

format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz

Assalamualikum
Peace and blessing for all


Let’s see first the meaning of the word unlettered

Not adept at reading and writing; deficient in the knowledge that can be acquired from books.

The adjective unlettered has 2 meanings:

Meaning #1: having little acquaintance with writing (notice the word little)

Meaning #2: lacking general education or knowledge

http://www.answers.com/unlettered&r=67


Unlettered does not mean that one is not able scribble few sentences or read few words
Or is a complete dumb person.

Masha Allah the prophet was very intelligent but he did not have any formal education

Also you must know difference between the holy Quran and Hadiths
The holy Quran is 100% error free, where as many hadiths were rejected because they were found to be unreliable
also any hadith that goes against the holy Quran needs to be rejected and the holy Quran does say the prophet was unlettered

I’m not saying that this hadith is not authentic

Many times same incidence is reported differently by different narrators

Now let’s analyze the hadith you quote

1 “When the document of treaty was written, the following was mentioned”

The document was already written and it does not say that prophet wrote it

2 " Then he said to 'Ali, "Rub off (the words) 'Allah's Apostle' "
“but 'Ali said, "No, by Allah, I will never rub off your name."


All the terms were already written, only objection was to the words ‘Allah’s Apostle'

There was no need to write any thing only to rub out or cross out the words
‘Allah’s Apostle'



Now it is quite possible the narrator did not see the prophet actually write he may be standing away from him at that time and the holy prophet may have just rubbed out or crossed out the words simply because there was no need to write anything but to the narrator it must have looked like the prophet was writing something.


The evidence that you stated is very poor, out of thousands of hadiths you could only quote one, that to could be explained easily
Surely if the prophet(s) was well read and educated there must be some incidence reported which definitely indicate it?


Also you have failed to quote or may be deliberately choose to ignore the hadith just before it.

The hadiths is

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 862


Narrated Al-Bara bin 'Azib:

When Allah's Apostle concluded a peace treaty with the people of Hudaibiya, Ali bin Abu Talib wrote the document and he mentioned in it, "Muhammad, Allah's Apostle ." The pagans said, "Don't write: 'Muhammad, Allah's Apostle', for if you were an apostle we would not fight with you." Allah's Apostle asked Ali to rub it out, but Ali said, "I will not be the person to rub it out." Allah's Apostle rubbed it out and made peace with them on the condition that the Prophet and his companions would enter Mecca and stay there for three days, and that they would enter with their weapons in cases.

http://tinyurl.com/4b2c9q


Rubbed out!
Rubbed out!
Rubbed out!

Wow, nice refutation brother. Rep well deserved.

AntiKarateKid, how would you call that a refutation? Does the hadith say 'wrote' or not?

format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz

There was no need to write any thing only to rub out or cross out the words ‘Allah’s Apostle'

The evidence that you stated is very poor, out of thousands of hadiths you could only quote one, that to could be explained easily
Surely if the prophet(s) was well read and educated there must be some incidence reported which definitely indicate it?

You can use all the colourful text and highlight 'rub out' as much as you want, but it clearly says that they read the title and were displeased.
Ali was asked to rub out part of it, but he wouldn't so the Prophet took the document from him and finished it himself.

You can accuse me of being selective, but so are you and I'm not the one ignoring something that is in plain view.

It's all very well for you to say that some hadiths might be unreliable when it suits your point of view.

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

Interesting.
Some miracles of Islam are actually impressive!

Ahem. Trust me the other ones you dismiss are just as impressive to all Muslims. You obviously need a straight line drawn infront of you to baby you along the way in some.

format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid

Ahem. Trust me the other ones you dismiss are just as impressive to all Muslims. You obviously need a straight line drawn infront of you to baby you along the way in some.

I like mathematical miracles, word repetion and that kind of stuff. And some prophecies are cool too! On the other hand, most verses that muslims claim to be scientifically accurate, are rubbish, that is, not miraculous or anything.

format_quote Originally Posted by Azy

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 863:

Narrated Al-Bara:

When the Prophet intended to perform 'Umra in the month of Dhul-Qada, the people of Mecca did not let him enter Mecca till he settled the matter with them by promising to stay in it for three days only. When the document of treaty was written, the following was mentioned: 'These are the terms on which Muhammad, Allah's Apostle agreed (to make peace).' They said, "We will not agree to this, for if we believed that you are Allah's Apostle we would not prevent you, but you are Muhammad bin 'Abdullah." The Prophet said, "I am Allah's Apostle and also Muhammad bin 'Abdullah." Then he said to 'Ali, "Rub off (the words) 'Allah's Apostle' ", but 'Ali said, "No, by Allah, I will never rub off your name." So, Allah's Apostle took the document and wrote, 'This is what Muhammad bin 'Abdullah has agreed upon: No arms will be brought into Mecca except in their cases, and nobody from the people of Mecca will be allowed to go with him (i.e. the Prophet ) even if he wished to follow him and he (the Prophet ) will not prevent any of his companions from staying in Mecca if the latter wants to stay.' When the Prophet entered Mecca and the time limit passed, the Meccans went to 'Ali and said, "Tell your Friend (i.e. the Prophet ) to go out, as the period (agreed to) has passed." So, the Prophet went out of Mecca....

1) you havn't quoted a source, the volume and book number of what?


2) It's likely to be a mistake in the translation of text, since it's clear that he did not write (peace be upon him), and everyone knew this. Infact, if this statement was so true - you would be the first person in history to 'disprove Islam' by supposedly 'refuting the Qur'an' (since it's stated that he is the unlettered Prophet) when even the contemporaries of Allah's Messenger were unable to do so, and they knew he was illiterate.

Rather, Suhail ibn 'Amr was also involved in the treaty and he was a nobleman from Quraysh, and since the Messenger of Allah clearly said that he would agree with the conditions [even if they were a disadvantage for the Muslims temporarily] - he would accept. So we understand from other narrations that the Prophet asked Ali ibn Abi Talib for where it says 'Messenger of Allah / Rasool Allaah' - then he removed it with his own finger, and asked him (Ali) to write up the remainder of the treaty.



I can't find the arabic of the text yet, if i am able - i will try to quote insha Allah. And Allah knows best.




Peace.

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

I like mathematical miracles, word repetion and that kind of stuff. And some prophecies are cool too! On the other hand, most verses that muslims claim to be scientifically accurate, are rubbish, that is, not miraculous or anything.

Listen man, you are only stating some "taste" you have in miracles. Muslims dont "claim" those verses to be accurate. They are. It has been repeatedly shown and argued by scientists ( who have converted on it btw). Your opinion is your business, but from what you have said right now, your dismissal/ preference for a type of miracle as opposed to another is utterly subjective in it's nature. ALso the purpose of these miracles is to convince the unbelievers, so whether or not you like it may actually be beside the point. You accept what suits your fancy and does not break your agnostic bubble I suppose.

format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid

Listen man, you are only stating some "taste" you have in miracles. Muslims dont "claim" those verses to be accurate. They are. It has been repeatedly shown and argued by scientists ( who have converted on it btw). Your opinion is your business, but from what you have said right now, your dismissal/ preference for a type of miracle as opposed to another is utterly subjective in it's nature. ALso the purpose of these miracles is to convince the unbelievers, so whether or not you like it may actually be beside the point. You accept what suits your fancy and does not break your agnostic bubble I suppose.

...

Assalamualeikum
subhanallah

Great video. I double checked it myself since I am always so skeptical but this is great. All should see this video.

MashaAllah, thats simply amazing. SubhanAllah!

format_quote Originally Posted by Azy

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 863:

Narrated Al-Bara:

When the Prophet intended to perform 'Umra in the month of Dhul-Qada, the people of Mecca did not let him enter Mecca till he settled the matter with them by promising to stay in it for three days only. When the document of treaty was written, the following was mentioned: 'These are the terms on which Muhammad, Allah's Apostle agreed (to make peace).' They said, "We will not agree to this, for if we believed that you are Allah's Apostle we would not prevent you, but you are Muhammad bin 'Abdullah." The Prophet said, "I am Allah's Apostle and also Muhammad bin 'Abdullah." Then he said to 'Ali, "Rub off (the words) 'Allah's Apostle' ", but 'Ali said, "No, by Allah, I will never rub off your name." So, Allah's Apostle took the document and wrote, 'This is what Muhammad bin 'Abdullah has agreed upon: No arms will be brought into Mecca except in their cases, and nobody from the people of Mecca will be allowed to go with him (i.e. the Prophet ) even if he wished to follow him and he (the Prophet ) will not prevent any of his companions from staying in Mecca if the latter wants to stay.' When the Prophet entered Mecca and the time limit passed, the Meccans went to 'Ali and said, "Tell your Friend (i.e. the Prophet ) to go out, as the period (agreed to) has passed." So, the Prophet went out of Mecca....

Returning to Azzy's quoted narration:


I'll quote brother Ansar [it clarifies what i said earlier]:

Yes, you've quoted the abridged version of the hadith. The full version states that Ali refused to erase the name so he took the paper from him, asked where it was on the paper and then erased it (Sahih Muslim 1783). Then he continued to dicate. The wording in arabic does not necessitate the actual writing by an individual as it is also used for 'decree', 'dictate', and 'prescribe'. Even in the english language, if a person of status says, "I will write to you" it doesn't necessarily mean they will pick up a pen and write themselves - they may dictate the letter addressed from themselves. So the phrase is So Allah's Apostle took the document [from Ali, and erased the words in question] and dictated..., and this is in light of the other narrations which provide a more definite description of the incident in question.

Like I've said before, this isn't anything new. Non-muslims just pick the isolated narration that appears to support their view without doing the background research, examining the text or similar narrations. The conclusive evidence establishes that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh could not read or write.

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post303605

format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin

Why all the discussion about the Prophet (SAW)'s illiteracy/literacy? I'm sure everyone can read the title of the thread and deduce its topic.

It started as a pondering on ancient people's ability to create geometrically accurate forms using the knowledge of maths they had at the time.

I suppose it's not a big issue here, the Romans were building roads of 40+ miles in a straight line over varying terrain using a handful of sticks as guides.

Anyone who called me up on my reasoning and is interested in a response, I'll post it in the existing literacy thread.