I encountered a situation last weekend. I went to the halal shop and instead of the normal brother serving this time, it was a sister. She was arab speaking I think probably Lebanon origin. I have only been to the shop 2, 3 times, with my husband and I was shocked at the women who came in there I only saw this time. Arabic speakers, they were dressed very improperly. The counter girl must have been around 21, 22 years old and had a halter top!!! I was amazed, she said salam and I felt a frown on my face automatically. I am so ashamed now.
It;s ignorance, i never did this before, but I thought, man your language is arabic, I am even deprived of this, you can understand all the ahdeeth and quraan first hand, and yet you stand here like this???
to make her feel guilty I went into the shop again, without my family and bought a Quraan and some islamic CDs for my kids. This time I tried to smile.
I wanted to ask all the hijabi and niqabis how would you treat a non hijabi muslim woman who dresses indecently.
Do you also feel sour? I normally feel very open minded and try and treat them well, so tey can be attracted towards hijab, but I feel so guilty now, I dont know why I was feeling kinda biased.
I was wondering what the etiquettes were for encountering non hijabi sisters...
But how can we respect a person who calls themselves a Muslim and claims Islam to be their religion yet they do not care about and nor follow its teachings? I am not referring to those Muslims who are trying to obey Allaah and feel guilty when they do wrong, or those who are ignorant and don't know any better, but I am referring to those who show a total disregard to His command, despite knowing everything. How can we respect people like that?
Exactly the issue of not wearing hijaab is a sin, would you treat a drug dealer who calls himself Muslim with respect just because you don't know what's in his heart? although all day openly he walks around selling drugs to kids? but who cares you dont know whats in his heart, this is 1 of the commands of Allah he has a hard time following just like the women who has a hard time following laws of hijaab so we should treat him the same because he has a hard time following this and she has a hard time following that.
They are both comitting sins so to say you'd respect her because you don't know what's in her heart means, you have to pay that same respect to every person who commits sins openly because you don't know what's in their heart.
You may think a drug dealer is completely different to a women walking around uncovered but they are both sinning openly and in my view they are both the same, the women walks around uncovered attracting looks from men, old men who "wish they were younger" when they see her, any guesses why?
and young teenage boys who are at the peak of their sexual desire look at her and think "wow if only I was older I'd go after her" in this way she's partly responsible for corrupting the boys mind because the young boy gets conditioned to looking at women uncovered whereever he goes and as he grows up desiring to go after women.
Yes the boy should not be looking and lowering his gaze but would it not be alot easier for him to do so if she was covered up. And if she was covered up and the boy still carried on looking, then is not the blame entirely on him because the women has done her duty of covering up and obeying Allah and doing what Allah has made obligatory on her. And in this case is not the boy the one to blame because he is the only 1 who is not not obeying the commands of Allah by lowering his gaze.
Where as if she walks around uncovered the blame is also on her because she's partly to blame for making her body a temptation, when she's covered up her body's no longer a temptation to look at. when the lady is covered, then he is the 1 to blame out the two.
In a way pixie is right how can we respect people who call themselves Muslims and say we believe but show total disregard to Allah's commands, despite knowing everything. How can we respect people like that? Fair enough if she doesn't know, but what if she does know??
what if she does know the hadith where the prophet pbuh says "the women who wears tight clothing will come no where near the sweet fragrance of jannah"
Is not a Muslim by definition one who submits to the will of Allah, is she submitting when she hears that Allah commands her to cover up and she refuses. So how can you treat her with the same respect as the one who knows and submits :S
I'm sure other men have noticed this but amongst the majority of Muslim men, there is a special type of respect for the Muslim women who covers up that is unparalleled. They never look at her in a bad way, or think bad of her, or hassle her in an unappropriate manner and in my view she is deserving of this. Rather they treat her like their sister and refer to her as their sister.
How can you give this same respect to the other type of women when she walks around openly disobeying Allah, part of what makes a Muslim women so honoured in Islam and special is when she observes hijaab she gets that respect of not being viewed as a sexual object rather as a person.
And to say both are the same and both should be given equal treatment I do not agree with, is not the women who covers up better than the women who does not cover up??
Didn't the messenger (peace be upon him) of Allah say alll mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.
So is not the women who covers up and obey's Allah openly more better than the women who doesn't? because she has more piety with regards to her appearance. And therefore is she not deserving of more respect because she is more pious and god fearing with regards to her appearance than the women who doesn't cover up.
So would it not be wrong to treat them both the same? even though 1 is better than the other in piety.
I don't know, maybe I'm understanding it wrong here, it's like saying we treat all muslims the same regardless of what they do because we don't know what's in their heart.
Wouldn't you treat your beautifull brother or sister who obey's Allah openly, with his heart in the deen and he/she helps keep your feet firm in Islam better than the brother or sister who disobeys Allah? and who's heart isn't in the deen and she sins openly and possibly takes your heart away from Islam with her. You'd treat this 1 the same as the other 1?
Last edited by Salahudeen; 07-29-2009 at 11:01 PM.
the women who has a hard time following laws of hijaab so we should treat him the same because he has a hard time following this and she has a hard time following that.
Good post sis,masha-Allah!
So:if the non-hijabi has a hard time bcos she lives for in a non-muslim land-she must do heejrah!
If she take it as a some kind of excuse-she will be from the losers (may Allah forbids!)
And how bad it is to adore the looks of kufr?
By all means hate the action if you cannot change it...but it's not a good idea to do or say anything to push that person away. Not everyone has the same imaan level. I would still address and speak to her nicely regardless. At least to her she'll realize the level of patience Islam teaches and we should be kind to one another. Allah(swt) says to invite others with wisdom and kindness InshaAllah. If you stuff all this in her face at once you'll freak her out and maybe push her away. Patience people...
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
By all means hate the action if you cannot change it...but it's not a good idea to do or say anything to push that person away. Not everyone has the same imaan level. I would still address and speak to her nicely regardless. At least to her she'll realize the level of patience Islam teaches and we should be kind to one another.
Yes I don't agree with being nasty to the person or saying anything bad to them, I think you should be nice to them and advise them with kindness about what Allah has made obligitory on them and how show her the hadiths from the messenger of Allah demonstrating what a serious matter it is.
If they still refuse then I feel that they shouldn't occupy the same status in your eyes or you shouldn't love them as much as you love your brothers and sisters who pratice the deen and are your companions in praticing the religion.
But are you really going to like a person who when you show him what Allah has revealed and shown him what the messenger of Allah says and he still refuses like it's some trivial matter? and calls himself Muslim.
I'm not talking about the person who is trying inside and attempting to make the step towards it but has issues inside, i'm talking about the person who doesn't care full stop and just carrys on living their life as normal without taking steps and trying to implement the command of Allah.
But obviously if the women is Muslim and is wearing a mini skirt or tight fitted jeans and trousers or tops that are low cut exposing her belly she's not making much of an effort towards implementing the command. I'm talking bout this type of person, because it's possible to dress modestly to a certain extent and still fit in with society and not be looked at weirdly for wearing hijaab.
But if she's walking round flashing everything do you really think she's desiring to implement the command of covering up into her life? and would you treat her the same as the one who does after you've made her aware that it's haraam what she's doing? would you love her the same as your sister who pratices the religion?
Even though she knows it's blatantly haraam and she makes no attempts to cover up and walks around exposing herself after you've advised her?
by the way we're not talking about inviting people to Islam we're talking about people who claim to be Muslim's yet openly disobey Allah obviously with the non Muslim you'll treat her exactly the way you mentioned because she doesn't claim to be a Muslim and is completely ignorant.
We're talking about the Muslim who claims to believe in the Qur'an and sunnah and knows that Allah has made it obligatory upon them to cover up and make no efforts at all towards dressing modestly. And shows no desire towards implementing the command of Allah and doesn't really care and jus walks round wearing anything she wants like a halter top.
Last edited by Salahudeen; 07-29-2009 at 11:55 PM.
It's still the same, born Muslim or not. If you want what you to say to have any affect, then you would need to be humble. Some people may wear hijaab but do things even a non practising Muslim might not.
I think we're better of starting off with ourselves rather than to look for someone to judge. I'm not saying we should let the bad fly over us, but before we go and point fingers, I'm pretty sure we have many things in ourselves to point fingers at. Also I wasnt talking about those who blatantly reject. I don't even bother with that kind of people unless of course they want to ask me something. I dont like to seem all preachy. Unless they have questions, I let my behavior do the talking.
Last edited by Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн; 07-30-2009 at 12:43 AM.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
It's still the same, born Muslim or not. If you want what you to say to have any affect, then you would need to be humble. Some people may wear hijaab but do things even a non practising Muslim might not.
I think we're better of starting off with ourselves rather than to look for someone to judge. I'm not saying we should let the bad fly over us, but before we go and point fingers, I'm pretty sure we have many things in ourselves to point fingers at. Also I wasnt talking about those who blatantly reject. I don't even bother with that kind of people unless of course they want to ask me something. I dont like to seem all preachy. Unless they have questions, I let my behavior do the talking.
I agree with you. We all have faults within ourselves but what is wrong with advising someone who is openly disobeying Allah and says they are Muslim? is advising judging them? If I was doing something haraam in front of all the people I'd love it if my muslim brother came upto and took me to 1 side and advised me that what I am doing is haraam and I should not be doing such things if I am a Muslim.
Because I believe as Muslims we should also be aiming to better each other not just our own individual selves. And also doesn't this fall under the hadith where if you see an evil change it with physically with your hands if you cannot do that change it with your tongue and if you cannot do that then hate it in your heart and that is the least of faith.
Is not the Muslim women walking around uncovered disobeying Allah openly infront of everyone considered to be Evil and haraam? then how can I not advise her when the messenger of Allah said the least of faith is to hate it in your heart?
And we're kinda drifting off topic but this is relevant to the thread topic I guess because 1 of the ways you would treat her is by advising her and seeing her response.
Advising isn't judging Noor if some 1s doing something they shouldn't be and you tell them it's wrong and advised them based upon clear proof which is what I'm saying you should do what is wrong with it?
If you saw a Muslim drinking alcohol or smoking drugs wouldn't you advise him and try to help him?? "Look akhi what you're doing is haraam and goes against Qur'an and sunnah you have to try giving it up"
or would you just let him carry on drinking himself to death and say to yourself "Oh no can't tell him what he's doing is haraam who am I to point the finger I'm not perfect" who cares if he's my fellow Muslim can't be pointing the finger now can I.
Last edited by Salahudeen; 07-30-2009 at 01:13 AM.
I was talking to anyone who thinks that way. No need to argue I didnt say anything was wrong with advising. But it's better not to put all the blame on the women folk.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
oh sis am not arguing with you just discussing am very passionate about getting my point across. Your right all the blame shouldn't be upon the Muslim women it should be on the kuffar women also who they've learnt it from.
But I'm not specificly targeting women lol men are in perfect too even more so than women. but that's a whole diff topic lol "How would you treat a non bearded muslim who's away from sunnah"
But how can we respect a person who calls themselves a Muslim and claims Islam to be their religion yet they do not care about and nor follow its teachings? I am not referring to those Muslims who are trying to obey Allaah and feel guilty when they do wrong, or those who are ignorant and don't know any better, but I am referring to those who show a total disregard to His command, despite knowing everything. How can we respect people like that?
We all some where or the other commit mistakes sis ,we also know all the things we need to do, but i know i am not able to do every thing , i am trying my level best but it is not so easy sis.i accept that she is disobeying the principles but still who knows she may be trying to get good too sis ?So ...
We all some where or the other commit mistakes sis ,we also know all the things we need to do, but i know i am not able to do every thing , i am trying my level best but it is not so easy sis.i accept that she is disobeying the principles but still who knows she may be trying to get good too sis ?So ...
I agree. I was referring to people who don't try and don't care. But that is a good Q u asked about how do we know whether the non Hijaabi Muslim sister is someone who just doesn't care about the commands of Allaah or someone who is trying but there are external factors stopping her ?
We cannot enjoin the right or forbid the wrong if we do not know a persons background. This is crucial. So before saying anything to anyone, you speak to them and get to know them.
There are 3 types of people out of which only one type will be saved from Allaahs wrath.
a) Those who don't enjoin the right nor forbid the wrong. Leave it altogether.
b) Those who enjoin the right and forbid the wrong but do not do it correctly.
And the last one, the only group which is saved from Allaahs punishment:
c) Those who enjoin the right and forbid the wrong and they do it correctly.
Have to be wise, gentle, know their situation.. cant make anyone run away. etc. Otherwise we will be causing more harm than good.
But that doesn't mean we don't dislike the sin in our heart, no we still dislike the sin, because our emaan is not complete if we do not dislike that which Allaah dislikes. However our approach should be wise.
ITS ALL WE CAN IDENTIFY THERE ARE NOT PRACTICING ISLAM....(TGERE ALSO SHOWING SYMBOL OF A MUSLIM..THATS Y V UNDERSTOOD THERE R MUSLIM)
THEY ARE ONLY ABIDING...HALF....
THIS CAN HAV LARGER EFFECT.......
GENERAL FEELING WILL BE THER AMONG NON-MUSLIM...THAT MUSLIM ARE LIKE THIS( THEY ONLY COVER HALF OF THEIR HEAD../ THEY HAV NO PROBLEM IN SHAKING THEIR HANDS.....ETC)
WE SHOULD TEACH THEM ISLAM THROUGH OUR ISLAMIC LIFE.
OTHERWISE SUDDENLY A DAY WOMAN STARTED COVERING FACE , EVERYONE WILL LOOK/ SAY THAT IS A FUNDAMENTALISTS.......ETC
TRY TO FOLLOW ALL & TRY TO MAKE MUSLIMPRACTICE ISLAM , NOT WAITING FOR ANOTHER DAY.
Squiggle, I must agree with you, as you seem to have very good knowledge of the Islamic Faith! I am not Muslim, I am a Christian Reverend, but I understand the purpose of modesty. Here in america, many girls dress very provocatively. Even though I don't think that the way someone dresses is the problem, I believe that it can lead to problems (envy, lust, etc) and that's why the need to dress modestly. I appreciate you strong knowledge of the Qur'an, and helping others understand and learn from it! Thank you for your insight!
Your welcome jeff, girls dressing provocatively is not good cos it leads to sexual relations outside marriage for most men and women. because lust becomes a big problem for quite a few men. And that is something we don't want in Islam so the women are told to cover up due and dress modestly due to mens inferiority when it comes to this area and not being able to control themselves, they have a hard time controlling themselves around this area and many times think lustful thoughts about women who are dressed indecently. This is not the case with the majority of women because men have a much stronger sexual desire,
however men are told to dress modestly also by wearing loose cloving and men also have certain parts of the body that they aren't allowed to display for example they can't display above their elbows and anything above their knees.
And Islam seeks to remove sexual relations that take place outside of marriage and babies that are the product of relationships where neither party is married to each other.
Our prophet peace be upon him advised the young men to get married as soon as possible as a means to protect themselves from sexual relations with women outside of marriage.
And if they didn't have the means to marry he said they should fast because fasting decreases your sexual appetite and lowers your testosterone.
jeff d....
i accept ur appreciation , but my knowledge is limited.
i undersatood that Allah/god has sent his revelation as Quran
Allah has created HEaven & earth & Quran...........human being & each Human being born not because his wish , but wish of Allah.
each man is born not with wish of he himself/his parents.......
BUT ALLAH SUBHAN THAHALLA...CREATED.....HEAVEN&EARTH...MAN AND PROPOSED TERM FOR EACH.....BOTH LIVING & NON LIVING.
MAN IS UNAWARE ABOUT HIS MENTAL & PHYSICAL CAPABOLITIES, WEAKENESS ETC.......
MAN UNDERSTOOD THAT....HIS HAND WILL GET HURT WEN HE PUT HIS HAND ON FIRE......MAN IS UNAWARE ABOUT HIS MENTAL & PHYSICAL CAPABILITIES.
SO, RATHER THAN THINKING UNDIFENED WAYS.....ITS GOOD TO FOLLW CREATORS GUIDANCE...WITH PRAYERS TO HIM & DEEDS AS PER HIS GUIDENCE.....BOTH PLEASINBG HIM.
ALLAH IS ALL KNOWING
SO MAKE UR DEEDS& PRAYERS AS PER INSTRUCTION OF ALLAH...BECS ALLAH CREATED ALL..& PROPOSED ALL.
HE KNOW WANT MAN DOESNT KNOW.
1st WEARING HIJAB IS INSTRUCTION ALLAH...THE RATIONALE OF THAT WILL BE WITH ALLAH.
2nd IF U THINK U CA N UNDERSTAND,,..HIJAB BRING WOMEN IN TO HER MODESTY.
U CAN GET MANY POSITIVE RATHER THAN NEGTIVE ANSWER......
ALLAH CREATOR OF ALL.
FOLOW HIS GUIDENCE..IN UR DEEDS(AS PER HIS GUIDANCE) & PRAYERS(AS PER INSTURCTION)
ALLAH CREATOR OF ALL
FATE IS FROM HIM......IF HAV GOOD /BAD DAY IN LIFE...ALLWAYS KEEP SAYING ALLHAMDULLILAH & MAINTAIN UR PRAYERS & DEEDS.
ALL FOLLOWERS HAV GOOD LIFE HERE AFTER , IF THEY FOLLOWED THEIR RELIGION WITHOUT COMPROMISE
hearing crap like this gets me vexxed if it was ok I'd hunt them down and slaughter them both, thats if I'm able to. I don't want to boast but I'm sure any brother here would feel like that after hearing such filth in one of the holiest places on earth
I think whats more disturbing than your desire to murder this woman innocent woman is the fact that not one person in this thread as of yet has condemned your statement.
I think whats more disturbing than your desire to murder this woman innocent woman is the fact that not one person in this thread as of yet has condemned your statement.
Read again carefully, he said
"if it was ok"
so he knows that it's forbidden in Islam and/or formal law to do what he wants to do and he is not going to do it. So what's the crime in it?
However, I agree with you that it is not such a pleasant thought.
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How would you treat a non hijabi? (OP)
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I didnt say anything was wrong with advising. But it's better not to put all the blame on the women folk.
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