This thread is not to argue whether there are any miracles in the Quran, nor is it to argue whether or not there is a god...
There are really two separate issues. The issue of whether our universe was created by a conscious act, and if it was then also the issue of whether or not this consciousness has sent us instructions (theism) or is non intervening (deism.)
I'll start from the bottom up.
RELIGION
Why I don't accept a religion
What I observe in the world though is that many people make up many religions, it still happens today - I think Muslims will agree that Mormonism is man made. The technique used is that an individual will claim that god is speaking through them (directly or indirectly) and that on that authority everyone else should listen to them. When asked to present evidence of supernatural intervention they implore people to "believe out of faith" and "to demand proof is wicked and arrogant" - because natural beings cannot provide supernatural evidence.
Keeping in mind that this is the standard strategy by which humans create religion it is therefore impossible for me to believe any religion that came about in a similar fashion. It makes no sense to me that god would create a religion by utilising the exact same techniques of fraudsters.
What would it take me to accept a religion?
If I had opened the Quran and the first thing I saw was 299,792,458 I would today be a Muslim. This is the speed of light in a vacuum. Although there are alternative extraordinary explanations as to how this information could have arrived
God told Muhammad
An alien told Muhammad
A time traveller told Muhammad
I wouldn't really see any way of deciding which was the case, but the fact that the rest of the book claimed to be authored by the creator of the universe I think I could give the benefit of the doubt and accept it was from god Apart from knowing the speed of light in a vacuum it would also demonstrate knowledge of the future, because the number is presented in kilometres per hour, a unit of measurement which was not created at the time - so it would be a kind of "two birds with one stone" scenario.
GOD
Why I don't accept there is a god
To determine the cause of something we gather evidence. In nature this is simple as we have many instances from which to gather information, but with the universe we currently only have one to gather data from. We cannot see how this universe started, if it is the first universe, the only universe, and so on.
The answer to the question "How did the universe get here" for me is a resounding "I do not know", and I'd rather have no answer than the wrong answer. Not knowing is acceptable, accepting answers as truth without evidence ("truth without proof") is unacceptable.
For example, it's easy for someone to conclude that the universe was created, but why does this automatically mean it was created by "god"? There is no more or less evidence to suggest the origin of the universe was
One god
Two gods
Lots of gods
Another universe
Energy from some other dimension
etc
And if we say that whatever created it should be named "God" because god is a role rather than a being then we have no more evidence to suggest that
God was a conscious being rather than some natural process that creates universes.
God gave up its own existence in order to create the universe (the ultimate selfless sacrifice)
So with a lack of religious conviction there is no reason for me to say there is/isn't a god, or what the attributes of such a god should be. My atheism is merely a reflection of having a complete lack of conclusive evidence. All we have is an argument from ignorance - "I don't know how the universe got here.....therefore (insert religious belief of your choice)".
What would it take me to believe in a conscious creator of the universe?
If a being appeared in front of me and resurrected the dead body of my grandmother who said "Accept that this is god" I would accept that this is a very powerful being, but I would not also automatically accept it was responsible for creating the universe. As Arthur C Clarke once put it "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".
The only evidence I can think of that would convince me that a concious being created the universe (if I have no evidence of a credible religion) would be a message within the creation itself. There might be a way to embed a message within the fabric of the universe after the fact, but I'd expect there would be a way of determining that any slight alteration to the message would result in an infeasible universe.
If we were to find a universal law of physic for example, and it was based entirely on a binary pattern which translated to "I am the creator" then I would accept intelligence created our universe. If the message went as far as to say "I am the creator, and (religious leader of your choice) was my messenger" then needless to say I would accept that religion too.
What about you?
My position is that I have no preference as to what the truth is, I only care that I possess it. Given the right level of evidence to match the incredibility of the claim I will accept anything.
Are you also more interested in possessing the truth than you are satisfying your preference for what format the truth should take? If so, what kind of evidence do you think would convince you that
Atheists
A: The universe was created by intelligence
B: This intelligence has sent us instructions in the form of a religion
Theists
A: You are following a false religion.
B: There is no god.
PS: In the interests of interesting discussion I'm only interested from hearing from atheists and theists who do not answer that there is nothing that could convince them that they are wrong.
I don't see how any book's got to do with the qur'an.
Please address the subject re: the preservation of the qur'an.
You should let me answer in my own way. It doesn't matter if you see what the link is or not (although I can't see how it isn't obvious). If you answer my question then I will be able to answer yours.
You should let me answer in my own way. It doesn't matter if you see what the link is or not (although I can't see how it isn't obvious). If you answer my question then I will be able to answer yours.
I take your refusal to address my post as an affirmative confirmation that you agree with it.
I take your refusal to address my post as an affirmative confirmation that you agree with it.
Thanks
You can take it that way if you wish, but you will be wrong :-)
But seeing as you don't seem to want to admit that reordering chapters is "modifying a book" let's discuss something rather than arguing something (I prefer arguments anyway.)
I've not looked into the Sana'a Quranic scripts much yet, I've merely heard of their discovery and a claim (which I have not yet checked) that the verses are not in the same order as the Quran. Has anyone here looked into it at all?
tinyurl com / SanaaQuranicScripts
(Can't post links yet)
They seem to have more images now than when I first looked a few years ago.
You can take it that way if you wish, but you will be wrong :-)
But seeing as you don't seem to want to admit that reordering chapters is "modifying a book" let's discuss something rather than arguing something (I prefer arguments anyway.)
I've not looked into the Sana'a Quranic scripts much yet, I've merely heard of their discovery and a claim (which I have not yet checked) that the verses are not in the same order as the Quran. Has anyone here looked into it at all?
tinyurl com / SanaaQuranicScripts
(Can't post links yet)
They seem to have more images now than when I first looked a few years ago.
Before you even bring up this topic, I'd recommend you join in on the thread already discussing this
I'll try and find the link
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
You can take it that way if you wish, but you will be wrong :-)
But seeing as you don't seem to want to admit that reordering chapters is "modifying a book" let's discuss something rather than arguing something (I prefer arguments anyway.)
I am still not getting you.
So are you claiming that the qur'an sent by Allah SWT as a complete book, bound, like the bible?
and that the prophet Muhammad SAW changed the order?
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
I've not looked into the Sana'a Quranic scripts much yet, I've merely heard of their discovery and a claim (which I have not yet checked) that the verses are not in the same order as the Quran. Has anyone here looked into it at all?
Maybe you need to bring your own evidence than relying from a few anti-islamic sites.
That would save you from embarrassment.
have a look at the arguments made and the answers given incase your queries have already been answered
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
By the way. I outlined both why I don't believe and what it would take me to believe. I don't think anyone has yet said what it would take for them to stop believing yet.
By the way. I outlined both why I don't believe and what it would take me to believe. I don't think anyone has yet said what it would take for them to stop believing yet
every single particles in this universe is proof to believe.
My own existence is enough evidence to believe.
Since the universe exist, and I exist, I can never stop believing.
every single particles in this universe is proof to believe.
My own existence is enough evidence to believe.
Since the universe exist, and I exist, I can never stop believing.
That's regarding the Deism question, what about the religion question?
By the way. I outlined both why I don't believe and what it would take me to believe. I don't think anyone has yet said what it would take for them to stop believing yet.
It would take quite alot for me to stop believing, I'd have to loose all the faith, contentment, satisfaction I have inside me about islam. I'd have to loose that connection with god, that He listens to my supplication, stops guiding me, providing for me.
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
It would take quite alot for me to stop believing, I'd have to loose all the faith, contentment, satisfaction I have inside me about islam. I'd have to loose that connection with god, that He listens to my supplication, stops guiding me, providing for me.
Hi Aadil
I can't imagine that contentment and satisfaction alone are enough to keep most people believing in something. I was thinking more along the line of evidence. For example if you died and went to heaven and God said "Islam was fake, but in come come anyway" that would be absolutely conclusive, but what is your minimum requirement?
That's regarding the Deism question, what about the religion question?
I cannot see any other religion as complete as Islam, as logical as Islam, and as in line with the nature of man (while addressing and regulating it) as Islam
I do not see any other religious scriptures as error-free, as consistent, as beautiful, as complete guidance as the qur'an
Hence, I do not stop believing
I cannot see any other religion as complete as Islam, as logical as Islam, and as in line with the nature of man (while addressing and regulating it) as Islam
I do not see any other religious scriptures as error-free, as consistent, as beautiful, as complete guidance as the qur'an
Hence, I do not stop believing
I didn't ask what would convert you to a different religion, I asked what would prove to yours that it is false?
didn't ask what would convert you to a different religion, I asked what would prove to yours that it is false?
That, our estemeed guest, I have already addressed in my previous post.
Remember, something about the promise of Allah SWT about preserving the Qur'an?
If, there comes a time, when billions of muslims recite and memorise various different versions of the Qur'an, I will stop believing.
That, our estemeed guest, I have already addressed in my previous post.
Remember, something about the promise of Allah SWT about preserving the Qur'an?
If, there comes a time, when billions of muslims recite and memorise various different versions of the Qur'an, I will stop believing.
Hmm no, I don't think you would. It wouldn't be enough to put me off anyway. I'd just think to myself "Allah protected the Quran, those people have made something up for themselves. They haven't corrupted the Quran they have just decided to invent something different" - don't you think?
Hmm no, I don't think you would. It wouldn't be enough to put me off anyway. I'd just think to myself "Allah protected the Quran, those people have made something up for themselves. They haven't corrupted the Quran they have just decided to invent something different" - don't you think?
From the time of Rasulullah SWT, until now 1,400 years later, it has not been corrupted.
I can't imagine that contentment and satisfaction alone are enough to keep most people believing in something. I was thinking more along the line of evidence. For example if you died and went to heaven and God said "Islam was fake, but in come come anyway" that would be absolutely conclusive, but what is your minimum requirement?
The evidence is all there, it all makes sense to me, I can't really stop believing in that evidence. The only thing left that could remove my belief would be loosing that inner contentment and faith.
Having faith plays the main part in believing.
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
From the time of Rasulullah SWT, until now 1,400 years later, it has not been corrupted.
I have not changed my view and position about it.
Meanwhile, you keep shifting yours.
Hmm, I am surprised. The reason is that this is something easily achievable by humans. Just get loads of Quran's printed and ship them off to very poor + mostly illiterate places in the world, pay some people to teach the modified versions. After a few decades you'd end up with quite a few people following a modified Quran. That's why it wouldn't be enough for *me*, because the effects are man-made.
I've not shifted my position once, what do you mean?
Last edited by TheRationalizer; 12-23-2010 at 02:49 PM.
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Apart from knowing the speed of light in a vacuum it would also demonstrate knowledge of the future, because the number is presented in kilometres per hour, a unit of measurement which was not created at the time - so it would be a kind of "two birds with one stone" scenario.
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