question aobut Islamic architect

format_quote Originally Posted by MohammedSP

AOA
Isnt it right that in quran allah says that a mosque can only be maintained by MUSLIMS only. Then why ever since Prophet Mohammed PBUH passed away many mosques have been designed, renovated and built by non muslims?

Which ayah in Qur'an that mentioned if non-Muslims are not allowed to design, build, renovate mosque ? (except in Makah and Madinah).

another question...

Why Muslims have made star and crescent as their Islamic symbol? Isnt it forbidden to associate symbols with islam?

Plez correct me if i am wrong.

Officialy Muslims never made a symbol to symbolize Islam. Crescent and Star itself was a symbol of Ottoman Turk caliphate that used after Soultan Mahmud II conquered Constantinopel and changed this city name into Istanbul in 1453. But later when people of the world need symbol to symbolize every religion they chose that Ottoman Turk symbol to symbolize Islam, and Muslims never have any objection on this.

format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto

Which ayah in Qur'an that mentioned if non-Muslims are not allowed to design, build, renovate mosque ? (except in Makah and Madinah).

Al-Tawba
[SIZE=2.2]The Mosques of Allâh shall be maintained only by those who believe in Allâh and the Last Day; perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât and fear none but Allâh. It is they who are on true guidance. (18) [/SIZE]

Officialy Muslims never made a symbol to symbolize Islam. Crescent and Star itself was a symbol of Ottoman Turk caliphate that used after Soultan Mahmud II conquered Constantinopel and changed this city name into Istanbul in 1453. But later when people of the world need symbol to symbolize every religion they chose that Ottoman Turk symbol to symbolize Islam, and Muslims never have any objection on this.

Muslims dont have any problem with alot of things that is not according to islam. So?
It does not matter if Muslims have any problem or not, but once muslims start inventing stuff to associate it with islam it is 100% wrong.

Prophet Mohammed PBUH has said.

“Any action which is not according to our matter is rejected.”

“Whoever inserted anything in this our matter (Deen) that is not
part of it, it is rejected.”

format_quote Originally Posted by MohammedSP

Al-Tawba [SIZE=2.2]The Mosques of Allâh shall be maintained only by those who believe in Allâh and the Last Day; perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât and fear none but Allâh. It is they who are on true guidance. (18) [/SIZE]

Salaam brother... you have to read both Verses i.e. the Previous one as well, together so you can understand the proper meaning.

(9:17) It is not for those who ascribe divinity to anything beside God to visit or tend God's houses of worship, the while (by their beliefs) they bear witness against themselves that they are denying the truth. It is they whose works shall come to nothing, and they who in the fire shall abide!

Maulana Maududi in his Tafheem Ul Quran says "Even though this rule is of a general nature that a person who associates partners with God, cannot be guardian of a Masjid, yet it has been mentioned here with the particular object of removing the mushriks from the guardianship of the Ka`abah and Masjid-i-Haram and establishing permanently the guardianship of the worshippers of One God over them."

So the object was to remove Mushriks from Guardianship of Holy Kabah.An important thing to note is that since this refers to only those who are care takers of the Masjid, the care takers have to be the Maulvis and a Non Muslim even though if builds masjid or funds the building of a masjid will not and cannot be a care taker. It has to be a maulvi, a muslim.

Another important thing to mention is that if this Masjid did not allow the Non Muslims to enter at all, then it is a fact, and you can verify if you'd like to that Prophet (saw) himself lodged a deputation of the pagan Banu Thaqif in the masjid at Madinah, and that was after the Revelation of this Surah i.e. Ninth Surah Taubah. So if it was forbidden for non Muslims to enter at all then why did Prophet (saw) make them enter a masjid,even after the revelation of this Surah ?

Most important of all... Jabir Bin Abdullah (r.a) reported from Prophet (saw) that there were things given to this Ummah which were not given to any one else and one of them he mentioned "The Earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to purify (tayammum), therefore, anyone of my followers can pray wherever he is, at the time of prayer." (Sahih Bukhari)

So the whole earth is made for the worship of One True God, and as a Muslim we pray when it is time to.

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z

Salaam brother... you have to read both Verses i.e. the Previous one as well, together so you can understand the proper meaning.

(9:17) It is not for those who ascribe divinity to anything beside God to visit or tend God's houses of worship, the while (by their beliefs) they bear witness against themselves that they are denying the truth. It is they whose works shall come to nothing, and they who in the fire shall abide!

Maulana Maududi in his Tafheem Ul Quran says "Even though this rule is of a general nature that a person who associates partners with God, cannot be guardian of a Masjid, yet it has been mentioned here with the particular object of removing the mushriks from the guardianship of the Ka`abah and Masjid-i-Haram and establishing permanently the guardianship of the worshippers of One God over them."

So the object was to remove Mushriks from Guardianship of Holy Kabah.An important thing to note is that since this refers to only those who are care takers of the Masjid, the care takers have to be the Maulvis and a Non Muslim even though if builds masjid or funds the building of a masjid will not and cannot be a care taker. It has to be a maulvi, a muslim.

Another important thing to mention is that if this Masjid did not allow the Non Muslims to enter at all, then it is a fact, and you can verify if you'd like to that Prophet (saw) himself lodged a deputation of the pagan Banu Thaqif in the masjid at Madinah, and that was after the Revelation of this Surah i.e. Ninth Surah Taubah. So if it was forbidden for non Muslims to enter at all then why did Prophet (saw) make them enter a masjid,even after the revelation of this Surah ?

Most important of all... Jabir Bin Abdullah (r.a) reported from Prophet (saw) that there were things given to this Ummah which were not given to any one else and one of them he mentioned "The Earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to purify (tayammum), therefore, anyone of my followers can pray wherever he is, at the time of prayer." (Sahih Bukhari)

So the whole earth is made for the worship of One True God, and as a Muslim we pray when it is time to.

AOA Bro,

Sorry, i did not understand the full context.
Correct me if i am wrong. In the above context the mosques is refereed to kabah which is not for [SIZE=2.2][SIZE=2.2](polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh[/SIZE][/SIZE]) . But why plural form is used "Mosque(S)"?
And no way i am saying that non muslims cant not enter mosque but i just think it should not be maintained such as designing, renovating etc.

format_quote Originally Posted by MohammedSP

Al-Tawba
[SIZE=2.2]The Mosques of Allâh shall be maintained only by those who believe in Allâh and the Last Day; perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât and fear none but Allâh. It is they who are on true guidance. (18) [/SIZE]

Maintained in this ayah means : Run/manage/fill with Islamic activities. (source : Indonesian Ulama)
Non-Muslims can't be Imam of masjid, can't be masjid caretaker, can't use masjid for their un-Islamic activities. But, there is no any prohibition for non-Muslims to design, build, renovate or repair masjid building/hall.

Muslims dont have any problem with alot of things that is not according to islam. So?
It does not matter if Muslims have any problem or not, but once muslims start inventing stuff to associate it with islam it is 100% wrong.

Prophet Mohammed PBUH has said.

“Any action which is not according to our matter is rejected.”

“Whoever inserted anything in this our matter (Deen) that is not
part of it, it is rejected.”

This hadith is about bid'ah, and crescent and star as symbol is not considered as bid'ah.

format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto

Maintained in this ayah means : Run/manage/fill with Islamic activities. (source : Indonesian Ulama)
Non-Muslims can't be Imam of masjid, can't be masjid caretaker, can't use masjid for their un-Islamic activities. But, there is no any prohibition for non-Muslims to design, build, renovate or repair masjid building/hall.

How did indonesian ulama came to conclusion that this ayah means non muslims can renovate, repair, design the masjid when it clearly states that mosques shall only be maintained by muslims.
Dont you think if non muslims were allowed to design build renovate the mosque they too would have been allowed to give islamic lectures in the mosque?

This hadith is about bid'ah, and crescent and star as symbol is not considered as bid'ah.

so any region can just create a symbol to represent Islam? You do know star and crescent originates from pagan religion.
If a symbol was required to represent Islam then Prophet Mohammed PBUH would have made some if not allowed them to be on the mosque.

Maintain means that the scholars / imaams of the Masjid should control it, building is something else.

format_quote Originally Posted by MohammedSP

How did indonesian ulama came to conclusion that this ayah means non muslims can renovate, repair, design the masjid when it clearly states that mosques shall only be maintained by muslims.

Let we notice first words in surah At-Taubah ayah 18 : Innama ya'muru masajidallahi ....... (Only those who "ya'muru" mosques of Allah ....)
Indonesian Ulama translate/interpret "ya'muru" into "memakmurkan/me-ma'mur-kan". It's means : manage, make it better, make it always 'live' (fill it with Islamic activities).
Translate "ya'muru" into "maintain" in English is not wrong. Actually it's not really acurate, but "maintain" is the English word that closets to "ya'muru".
The prohibition for non-Muslim are only in manage the masjid and use masjid for their activities.

Dont you think if non muslims were allowed to design build renovate the mosque they too would have been allowed to give islamic lectures in the mosque?

Do you think the masjid caretaker will invite Muslim building contractor that built the masjid to give Islamic lecture in that masjid ?.
No, bro. They will not invite people that not capable to give Islamic lecture. Of course they will not allow non-Muslims to give Islamic lecture in masjid

so any region can just create a symbol to represent Islam? You do know star and crescent originates from pagan religion.

Pagan use crescent as symbol of moon goddess until today, I know it. But crescent in the symbol of Ottoman empire was not referring to that pagan symbol, that's just a similarity. The crescent itself symbolize Ottoman territory that spread on three continents, one end for Europe, center for Africa, another end for Asia. And the star is a symbol of their capital.

If a symbol was required to represent Islam then Prophet Mohammed PBUH would have made some if not allowed them to be on the mosque.

Why don't you tell it directly to masjid caretakers that still put that symbol over their domes ?.

format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto

Let we notice first words in surah At-Taubah ayah 18 : Innama ya'muru masajidallahi ....... (Only those who "ya'muru" mosques of Allah ....)
Indonesian Ulama translate/interpret "ya'muru" into "memakmurkan/me-ma'mur-kan". It's means : manage, make it better, make it always 'live' (fill it with Islamic activities).
Translate "ya'muru" into "maintain" in English is not wrong. Actually it's not really acurate, but "maintain" is the English word that closets to "ya'muru".
The prohibition for non-Muslim are only in manage the masjid and use masjid for their activities.

Do you think the masjid caretaker will invite Muslim building contractor that built the masjid to give Islamic lecture in that masjid ?.
No, bro. They will not invite people that not capable to give Islamic lecture. Of course they will not allow non-Muslims to give Islamic lecture in masjid

Fair enough.

Pagan use crescent as symbol of moon goddess until today, I know it. But crescent in the symbol of Ottoman empire was not referring to that pagan symbol, that's just a similarity. The crescent itself symbolize Ottoman territory that spread on three continents, one end for Europe, center for Africa, another end for Asia. And the star is a symbol of their capital.
Why don't you tell it directly to masjid caretakers that still put that symbol over their domes ?.

I believe Ottoman empire used those symbols to represent their army or region not the religion of Islam. It was later in the stage ignorant people started using those symbols to represent islam. It is wrong and we all must except it rather hide our mistakes.

format_quote Originally Posted by MohammedSP

Fair enough.

Thank you.

I believe Ottoman empire used those symbols to represent their army or region not the religion of Islam. It was later in the stage ignorant people started using those symbols to represent islam.

You are right.

It is wrong and we all must except it rather hide our mistakes.

If I told you "why don't you tell it directly to masjid caretakers .....", it doesn't means you must visit those masjid one by one and speak to the caretaker, but .....

I tell you a true story. In the past almost all of masjid in Indonesia had big drums named "bedug" that beaten by muezzin before azzan. One day, a brother write an article that explained if using "bedug" before azzan is actually bidah. He sent that article to some newspapers. Alhamdulillah, not so long after his article appeared in newspapers, many masjid removed their "bedug" and not use it again.

So, if you want to make a change, why don't you start to launch a campaign to remove that symbol ?. You can start with write article in a blog. Don't be afraid to walk if you sure you are on the right way.

You get my support, bro.

format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto

Thank you.

You are right.

If I told you "why don't you tell it directly to masjid caretakers .....", it doesn't means you must visit those masjid one by one and speak to the caretaker, but .....

I tell you a true story. In the past almost all of masjid in Indonesia had big drums named "bedug" that beaten by muezzin before azzan. One day, a brother write an article that explained if using "bedug" before azzan is actually bidah. He sent that article to some newspapers. Alhamdulillah, not so long after his article appeared in newspapers, many masjid removed their "bedug" and not use it again.

So, if you want to make a change, why don't you start to launch a campaign to remove that symbol ?. You can start with write article in a blog. Don't be afraid to walk if you sure you are on the right way.

You get my support, bro.

Thank you bro.

I am currently working on a video project which will discuss matters related to Islam. Sad to say but we all muslims are very quick to blame stuff on others and we fail to accept our own mistakes and improve our self.

thanks for your reply.

there are so much wrong information here. But i dont explain all of them. About the flag and islam's symbol. There is too

first name of the padişah who got the compliment of our prophet SAV is MUHAMMED not MAHMUD. . But most of us use MEHMET INSTEAD OF MUHAMMED. To protect the name . Because guy who carries it can do bad things and others can call his name bad. Just like we protect his name we protect name ALLAH. i will explain this later.
firstly why crescent represents islam i will explain this but thanks to ataturk i dont know arabic alphabet most of the people in my age learned it in mosque but i didnot that is another mistake of mine but i know the meaning why crescent is the symbol of ottoman flag. But ottomans didn't call them ottomans i wrote that too many times. Turks were minority in ottoman empire even muslims were minority in ottoman empire even though they have unbelievably number of kids they were minority but that is another subject. ottomans called themselves we are the devlet- Aliyye-i Muhammediye. Which means in german. Der erhabene staat von Muhammed. SAV. Which means we are the state our prophet established. There are too many things in ottoman flag but that is another subject i will explain about crescent. First as you guys know or should know ottoman empire had a very beatiful language which killed by ataturk just like alphabet but that is another subject. I dont know if word hilal arabic oder from another language i hope you guys know. Hilal means crescent. When we write hilal "crescent" there is 1 "Elif" und 1 he und " 2 lam.
When we write ALLAH we use the same amounts with same letters. And ebced value of this letters is 99 which represents 99 names of ALLAH.

But like i said to protect name ALLAH they didn't write in flag. They found this symbol. Which they didn't found moon already has a place in islam but that is another subject.
AND STAR WITH 5 EDGE MEANS MUHAMMED. and 5 rules of ISLAM.
To protect SHADA they didn't write in their flag. And used star. WHY DOES STAR MEANS MUHAMMED SAV ?

There is a long explanation but my englisch is not enough to translate or other stuff. But shortly if you write Muhammed in arabic it is like a Crescent Hilal. If you look closely you can see that but that is another subject.

And there are other important things and small details but you can research it.