Before I discovered Islam and wanted to revert, I was seriously considering a career as a professional singer. It is my dream to become a singer and Allah gave me a beautiful voice. I was wondering if, as a Muslim, I could still pursue this career? Or would that be haraam?
Also, about musical instruments. I play the violin and I hear that musical instruments are less permissible than vocal music. Is this true? I want to become a Muslim but I don't want to quit playing the violin. Please help!
I can speak from experience and tell you that you can love the Quran, and also enjoy some music on the side... Why is that so hard to imagine? And what exactly are you asking that I've tried? Listening to the Quran and music?
Brother, my post isnt suggesting whether one can listen to the Qur'aan and Music at the same time, rather when you listen to the Qur'aan, a certain love for the Qur'aan which you cannot have for music, where you wouldnt want to listen to it. my Question to you was have you listened to Qur'aan non-stop without listening to music? Can you listen to music for a whole week going without music? And by music i hope you understand what i am referring to, which that contains musical instruments and words which have no benefit..
The important thing is if it takes us away from the remebrance of Allaah then itself is classed as forbidden for us.
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
I'm confused then... Are people like Imam Suhaib Webb not true believers? Or are they classified as people who don't love the Quran because they may enjoy some music here and there? The idea just seems very odd (and not applicable to many)... Do you honestly think one has to pick between Quran and music? Or maybe you just mean becoming obsessed with music... If that's what you mean, then I agree... Like I said, too much of anything is bad. But that doesn't mean the thing in itself is bad. I hope that made sense...
Bro, some consider music to be a tool of shaytan, now imagine where people would be listening to the Qur'aan here and there, do you think thats right? Qur'aan i.e word of Allaah..music-created by man, now which one do you expect a muslim to choose? which one do you think is better?
Yes true too much something can be bad, not for everything such as those who will say drinking is okay, too much of it is bad..when is Alcohol ever good for you? Yes there was a time where muslims would drunk, later it was forbidden, it is mentioned somewhere there are some goods in alcohol, but it has more bad than good, so because it has more bad makes it forbidden as a whole..
I think maybe this will help make you understand where i am coming from insha'Allaah
"Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).".."[Al Qur'aan 3:2]
Brother, my post isnt suggesting whether one can listen to the Qur'aan and Music at the same time, rather when you listen to the Qur'aan, a certain love for the Qur'aan which you cannot have for music, where you wouldnt want to listen to it.
Indeed, the love for the Quran cannot be shared with music. Nobody denies this. The problem is when people lump music and the Quran together. Like I said, music is it's own separate thing. When I listen to music, I'm not doing it to replace the Quran... Music is something else completely, and I listen to it for completely different reasons. I don't know why this part is hard to grasp...
my Question to you was have you listened to Qur'aan non-stop without listening to music? Can you listen to music for a whole week going without music?
Of course I've listened to the Quran without listening to music... What kind of question is that? And of course I can stop listening to music for a whole week... Why do you seem to think anyone who listens to music suddenly becomes addicted to it, and is unable to appreciate the Quran? I've actually given up listening to music before, so it is indeed possible.
And by music i hope you understand what i am referring to, which that contains musical instruments and words which have no benefit..
Yup, I know we're talking about music with instruments. And I can also agree that music has no spiritual benefit (as in, it's not something that is "earning you points" with God) But like I've said before, that doesn't make it wrong... If I told you about how much I adored chocolate cake, and how I liked eating it... Those words and that moment would have no real benefit... But that wouldn't make saying it wrong either... (I know that was an awful example, but I hope you get what I mean. )
Bro, some consider music to be a tool of shaytan,
Indeed, and many people don't consider it to be a tool of Shaitaan. As for those who do, I respectfully disagree with them..
now imagine where people would be listening to the Qur'aan here and there, do you think thats right? Qur'aan i.e word of Allaah..music-created by man, now which one do you expect a muslim to choose? which one do you think is better?
My point was that there is no need to choose... Quran is one thing, and music is another.
Yes true too much something can be bad, not for everything such as those who will say drinking is okay, too much of it is bad..when is Alcohol ever good for you? Yes there was a time where muslims would drunk, later it was forbidden, it is mentioned somewhere there are some goods in alcohol, but it has more bad than good, so because it has more bad makes it forbidden as a whole..
The issue of alcohol and the issue of music are completely different, and I hope I'm not the only one who can see that...
I think maybe this will help make you understand where i am coming from insha'Allaah
**videos**
I have seen that video before, but before I say anything I must admit... I'm not a huge fan of Yusuf Estes... (not because of this video, but just.. in general. He's a good guy, and he helps a lot of people... Just not my type, and I don't agree with everything he says) But still, just based on what he says here, I personally don't find his arguments particularly convincing... I understand that you do however, but its important to realize that this isn't a clear cut issue, no matter how much people want to try and make it seem like there is one definitive answer...
I'm confused then... Are people like Imam Suhaib Webb not true believers? Or are they classified as people who don't love the Quran because they may enjoy some music here and there? The idea just seems very odd (and not applicable to many)... Do you honestly think one has to pick between Quran and music? Or maybe you just mean becoming obsessed with music... If that's what you mean, then I agree... Like I said, too much of anything is bad. But that doesn't mean the thing in itself is bad. I hope that made sense...
I am not sure who imam suhaib is and in no position to comment on anyone's piety one way or the other.. I am merely speaking of losing a love for one thing after having found a far richer, more fulfilling one-- literally music to me now is noise.. the only way I can describe it, as a hypothetical say all your life you were conditioned to think that the best caviar is sevruga from Russia, and the Russian caviar is elitist and most refined and most expensive no supermarket caviar is this, only to discover that Almas from the Beluga Sturgeon (the Iranian sort) that comes from the Caspian sea isn't only the rarest gem of all hence its name 'almas' diamond but the most expensive and most sought after though might not be known to all, and you try it and love it. Could you ever go back to cheap briny caviar after having had the most elegant and exquisite of them all?
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I am not sure who imam suhaib is and in no position to comment on anyone's piety one way or the other.. I am merely speaking of losing a love for one thing after having found a far richer, more fulfilling one-- literally music to me now is noise.. the only way I can describe it, as a hypothetical say all your life you were conditioned to think that the best caviar is sevruga from Russia, and the Russian caviar is elitist and most refined and most expensive no supermarket caviar is this, only to discover that Almas from the Beluga Sturgeon (the Iranian sort) that comes from the Caspian sea isn't only the rarest gem of all hence its name 'almas' diamond but the most expensive and most sought after though might not be known to all, and you try it and love it. Could you ever go back to cheap briny caviar after having had the most elegant and exquisite of them all?
Oh, I assumed you might have heard of him since he's become more popular in the West... It wasn't important though, just an example. Anyway, I see what you're saying, but I still have a slight problem with it and I hope you can see why... The expensive caviar vs. cheap caviar example might work, but only if you consider Quran and Music to be part of the same category. Even then, I can understand how this can be the case for many, but I just don't like labeling all music as "wrong" because of this, as some people like to do... Is the Quran better? Absolutely. Should it take priority? Of course. If music is causing you to neglect your religion, should you maybe consider stopping? Probably. But for a lot of people, music is completely separate from the Quran... Even in the example, if someone tastes the expensive caviar, but still likes to go back to the cheap one for old times sake... There's nothing particularly wrong with that, right? But once again, I do understand what you mean with the example, and I think it's wonderful that the Quran has had such an impact on you.
Oh, I assumed you might have heard of him since he's become more popular in the West... It wasn't important though, just an example. Anyway, I see what you're saying, but I still have a slight problem with it and I hope you can see why... The expensive caviar vs. cheap caviar example might work, but only if you consider Quran and Music to be part of the same category. Even then, I can understand how this can be the case for many, but I just don't like labeling all music as "wrong" because of this, as some people like to do... Is the Quran better? Absolutely. Should it take priority? Of course. If music is causing you to neglect your religion, should you maybe consider stopping? Probably. But for a lot of people, music is completely separate from the Quran... Even in the example, if someone tastes the expensive caviar, but still likes to go back to the cheap one for old times sake... There's nothing particularly wrong with that, right? But once again, I do understand what you mean with the example, and I think it's wonderful that the Quran has had such an impact on you.
I don't put Music and the Quran in the same category but there are a few aspects of fulfillment that apply to both and where one for me oneups by a landslide.. melody, emotion, lyricism, style of recitation.. of course I don't comment on the other aspects of the Quran that are only applicable to the Quran.. and I haven't commented on whether I think music is good or bad, the first I learned of it was on this forum.. and so now since I have doubts I prefer to stick with the wisdom from this hadith:
On the authority of Abu 'Abdullah an-Nu'man the son of Bashir (may Allah be pleased with them both), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may the blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) say:
That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know. Thus he who avoids doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honour, but he who falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh which if it be whole, all the body is whole and which, if it be diseased, all of it is diseased. Truly it is the heart.
It was related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I don't put Music and the Quran in the same category but there are a few aspects of fulfillment that apply to both and where one for me oneups by a landslide.. melody, emotion, lyricism, style of recitation.. of course I don't comment on the other aspects of the Quran that are only applicable to the Quran.. and I haven't commented on whether I think music is good or bad, the first I learned of it was on this forum.. and so now since I have doubts I prefer to stick with the wisdom from this hadith:
On the authority of Abu 'Abdullah an-Nu'man the son of Bashir (may Allah be pleased with them both), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may the blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) say:
That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know. Thus he who avoids doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honour, but he who falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh which if it be whole, all the body is whole and which, if it be diseased, all of it is diseased. Truly it is the heart.
It was related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.
I pretty much agree with you here. I too first learned of any issues with music on this forum.. And that Hadith is very beautiful.. Anyone who gives up something they are unsure of to please Allah is doing something very admirable...
The idea comes with a bit of freedom though, so that the person can research and decide what to do on their own. It's that that I was pushing for.. My only problem is people who tend to get upset when you try to express an opinion that they don't agree with... (I've had to deal with that a few times on this forum..) Having said that, I'm quite happy with how this discussion went.
I pretty much agree with you here. I too first learned of any issues with music on this forum.. And that Hadith is very beautiful.. Anyone who gives up something they are unsure of to please Allah is doing something very admirable...
The idea comes with a bit of freedom though, so that the person can research and decide what to do on their own. It's that that I was pushing for.. My only problem is people who tend to get upset when you try to express an opinion that they don't agree with... (I've had to deal with that a few times on this forum..) Having said that, I'm quite happy with how this discussion went.
Middle easterners to generalize are hot bloodied creatures and if we add an impassioned topic to the mix tempers are bound to flare..
I haven't found that problem in Malaysians though
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
[FONT="Courier New"]Indeed, the love for the Quran cannot be shared with music. Nobody denies this. The problem is when people lump music and the Quran together. Like I said, music is it's own separate thing. When I listen to music, I'm not doing it to replace the Quran... Music is something else completely, and I listen to it for completely different reasons. I don't know why this part is hard to grasp...
The part is hard to grasp because i dont know how one still have love for music at the same as having love for the Qur'aan, yes i am not denying either that music and Qur'aan are totally different to each other, but they are something one listens to for enjoyment, what I am saying in essense it is better for a muslim to listen to the word of God-the Qur'aan instead of music, like one would say it is better to listening to the Qur'aan is better than listening to some nasheed not that all nasheed are considered haraam. Also i am not saying we are angels and we wont listen to music and what not, I think it doesnt suit the one who would listen to music after being the memorizer of the whole Qur'aan. To me it doesnt fit together. And i am speaking in general not saying we should go judge people. So for those who wish to continue to listening to music can do so by their own free will, nor am i going to judge or mock them, but i would like to point out if one sees someone do wrong i have to inform them. For example many teens who are listening to hip hop and making those singers their idols, if you ask them to listen to Qur'aan they will ask for it to be switched off, it becomes difficult for the younger generation to then accept that they should not listen to this because they dont see anything wrong with it, and the love of the Qur'aan is taken away. This is what i mean by not being able to love both at the same time, i sincerely apologise if it seems if i look like im labelling those who do listen to music as wrong.
Also regarding the matters of deen i do not like arguments, if it seems like i am creating one, i apologise. by my posts I only want one to see the good and not hate the other just because you do not agree with them, but so that we can get along as members in peace especially as members of the ummah insha'Allaah
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Of course I've listened to the Quran without listening to music... What kind of question is that? And of course I can stop listening to music for a whole week... Why do you seem to think anyone who listens to music suddenly becomes addicted to it, and is unable to appreciate the Quran? I've actually given up listening to music before, so it is indeed possible.
My Question was have you tried doing that, not whether you can. I have not said when one listens to music and cannot appreciate the Qur'aan, even i can do that but i cannot appreciate both but one, listen to both at the same time but there is only one that i love more, depending on which i have formed more closeness too, if that makes sense
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Yup, I know we're talking about music with instruments. And I can also agree that music has no spiritual benefit (as in, it's not something that is "earning you points" with God) But like I've said before, that doesn't make it wrong... If I told you about how much I adored chocolate cake, and how I liked eating it... Those words and that moment would have no real benefit... But that wouldn't make saying it wrong either... (I know that was an awful example, but I hope you get what I mean. )
So we agree, and finally you understand and agree what i am referring to when i mentioned 'music', but the fact that you accept it doesnt gain no reward with your lord and no spiritual benefit, yet you still seem to deny it being wrong, that may just your opinion. What i did say is, if it does take you away from the remembrance from God then its wrong, and i am sure you may agree, nor am i saying one who listens to music alltogether is wrong.
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
point was that there is no need to choose... Quran is one thing, and music is another.
Nor have I denied that, that was beyond the point, but you cannot have the same amount of love for both, you can either say you love the Qur'aan more or music, that is what i am trying to say whether you agree or disagree with that.
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
The issue of alcohol and the issue of music are completely different, and I hope I'm not the only one who can see that...
I was trying to give an example, i apologise if it seemed unnacceptable. I was trying to point out Alcohol is never good and also since it has more bad in it it should be avoided as much as possible even though there is some good within it.
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
I have seen that video before, but before I say anything I must admit... I'm not a huge fan of Yusuf Estes... (not because of this video, but just.. in general. He's a good guy, and he helps a lot of people... Just not my type, and I don't agree with everything he says) But still, just based on what he says here, I personally don't find his arguments particularly convincing... I understand that you do however, but its important to realize that this isn't a clear cut issue, no matter how much people want to try and make it seem like there is one definitive answer...
I apologise for not posting a speaker of your liking, i agree it isnt a clear cut issue.
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
but I just don't like labeling all music as "wrong" because of this, as some people like to do... Is the Quran better? Absolutely. Should it take priority? Of course. If music is causing you to neglect your religion, should you maybe consider stopping? Probably. But for a lot of people, music is completely separate from the Quran... Even in the example, if someone tastes the expensive caviar, but still likes to go back to the cheap one for old times sake... There's nothing particularly wrong with that, right? But once again, I do understand what you mean with the example, and I think it's wonderful that the Quran has had such an impact on you.
Nobody labelled anyone as 'wrong' even i wouldnt do that, I myself was posting reasons to why music should be avoided if it causess harm to one's emaan. There are also conditions which i am sure you are aware of such as having instruments, words of no benefit, do you think if these things are forbidden , knowingly one still continue to listen to them?
I apologise if my post seem harsh or dont make sense and apologies for the loong post ..
Last edited by Ğħαrєєвαħ; 06-01-2011 at 08:51 PM.
"Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).".."[Al Qur'aan 3:2]
[FONT="Book Antiqua"][COLOR="DimGray"][SIZE="3"]
success is not subjective in life or the afterlife.. of course on assumes that when it comes to religion we're dealing with the latter: as the sura suggests .. successful are the believers who fulfill at least the first ten verses:
I listened and read from the 10 verses you posted: submissive, idle talk, giving, chastity, keep promises, pray. Seems a very short list and I contrast it with what I learned in Sunday school (admittedly years ago): love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness. meekness and self-control and these are things we all have and can be nurtured, surely God would not dole these out but what us to have them all. But I have two questions:
From this list you gave it looks as if Islam is all about guidance and you follow the guidance? Secondly, what on earth does '...what their right hand possess' mean in V6?
Your subjective opinion here is yours to keep..
This sounds to me rather harsh - have I broken a board rule? That subjective opinions are not allowed?
The part is hard to grasp because i dont know how one still have love for music at the same as having love for the Qur'aan, yes i am not denying either that music and Qur'aan are totally different to each other, but they are something one listens to for enjoyment, what I am saying in essense it is better for a muslim to listen to the word of the Qur'aan instead of music, like one would say it is better to listening to the Qur'aan is better than listening to some nasheed not that nasheed are considered haraam.
If you acknowledge that they aren't in the same category, then I don't see why you would still have a hard time with this... I listen to lectures sometimes for enjoyment too, but that doesn't mean anything. I read books for enjoyment, and for some kind of emotional fulfillment... But I'm sure you wouldn't say reading a novel was frowned upon... And nobody denies that it is better for someone to be reading the Quran, but again, none of this can mean that there is anything iffy or wrong with music... For example, I'll listen to music as I work out in the gym. I don't really pay attention to it, but it helps me focus and pass the time. Should I do that with Quran instead? Probably not. In fact, if I played the Quran in the background and didn't pay attention to it, I'd be doing a disservice to the word of God... But that's precisely what music is for at times... So it doesn't make sense to try and say one is better than the other, so it should be loved/listened to instead... I hope all that made sense..
Also i am not saying we are angels and we wont listen to music and what not, I think it doesnt suit the one who would listen to music after being the memorizer of the whole Qur'aan. To me it doesnt fit together.
This is your opinion though... I happen to know a few people who have memorized the Quran, and they're fairly piou. One is even an Imam... But they all listen to music sometimes for fun. I don't think they would agree with you that it's not fitting to listen to music once one has memorized the Quran. I think those things aren't really related.. You may disagree with me/them, but that's all it is... A disagreement. One that really just deals with opinions.
And i am speaking in general not saying we should go judge people. So for those who wish to continue to listening to music can do so by their own free will, nor am i going to judge or mock them,
Agreed.
but i would like to point out if one sees someone do wrong i have to inform them. For example many teens who are listening to hip hop and making those singers their idols, if you ask them to listen to music they will ask for it to be switched off, it becomes difficult for the younger generation to then accept that they should not listen to this because they dont see anything wrong with it, and the love of the Qur'aan is taken away. This is what i mean by not being able to love both at the same time, i sincerely apologise if it seems if i look like im labelling those who do listen to music as wrong.
You do understand that not everyone see's this as wrong like you do, right? So you probably don't have to inform them. And don't generalize all hip hop... Trust me, it's not all bad (and I'm not even that huge of a hip hop fan. ) You're just talking about extremes now, and I think most people (myself included) would agree with you when it comes to those extremes. We can all agree that filthy or vulgar language is bad. Suggestive lyrics are bad. But that simply doesn't apply to all music... What you have to realize is that reality isn't just made up of those extremes. Life isn't just black and white... If youth are listening to hip hop, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. If a person isn't interested in the Quran, it isn't necessarily due to the fact that he listens to music.
Also regarding the matters of deen i do not like arguments, if it seems like i am creating one, i apologise. by my posts I only want one to see the good and not hate the other just because you do not agree with them, but so that we can get along as members in peace especially as members of the ummah insha'Allaah
I agree, but I don't think this is turning into an argument... In fact, this is one of the most respectful discussions I've had on this board covering the topic of music.
I have not said when one listens to music and cannot appreciate the Qur'aan, even i can do that, listen to both at the same time but there is only one that i love more, depending to which i have formed more closeness too, if that makes sense
Like I said, of course one loves the Quran more. That's not an issue. But that doesn't mean one can't appreciate and listen to music either. I can love my family and love the Quran too, at the same time. Music is in a different category, and it's generally listened to for different reasons.
So we agree, and finally you understand and agree what i am referring to when i mentioned 'music', but the fact that you accept it doesnt gain no reward with your lord and no spiritual benefit,
A lot of things don't. That doesn't mean they're wrong or forbidden.
yet you still seem to deny it being wrong, that may just your opinion. What i did say is, if it does take you away from the remembrance from God then its wrong, and i am sure you may agree, nor am i saying one who listens to music alltogether is wrong.
It is my opinion, and the opinion of many others. Nobody disagrees with the idea that if anything (not just music) takes you away from spiritual growth, then it should be avoided. In that case though, it's up for the individual to decide.
Nor have I denied that, that was beyong the point, but you cannot have the same amount of love for both, you can either say you love the Qur'aan more or music, that is what i am trying to say whether you agree or disagree with that.
Nobody is saying you should love music more than the Quran. But once again, they're not exactly in the same category, so you don't exactly have to choose one and then completely abandon the other...
I was trying to give an example, i apologies if it seemed unnacceptable. I was trying to point out Alcohol is never good and also since it has more bad in it it should be avoided as much as possible even though there is some good within it.
But like I said, music and alcohol are incredibly different in their effects, and I don't think it's really a valid comparison... There's even quite a difference in their prohibition from what I understand, with alcohol being under an explicit ban from Allah in the Quran (much like swine, but with a more concrete reason), while music is definitely not clear.
I apologise for not posting a speaker of your liking, i agree it isnt a clear cut issue.
Oh, don't apologize. I just wanted to let you know that while he's not a favorite of mine, I tried to take his arguments without any bias.
Nobody labelled anyone as 'wrong' even i wouldnt do that, I myself was posting reasons to why music should be avoided if it causess harm to one's emaan. There are also conditions which i am sure you are aware of such as having instruments, words of no benefit, do you think if these things are forbidden , knowingly one still continue to listen to them?
I think you've at least hinted that you think music is wrong, but I agree, you haven't labeled anyone as wrong. I think I've given you reasons as to why I don't agree with you on your reasons regarding why music should be avoided... Most of what you've said is opinion, and really doesn't apply to everyone. If it lowers your Iman, then it's probably best if you don't listen to it. But it's also best not to assume that this will apply to everyone... And I've mentioned elsewhere that I don't consider instruments to be forbidden, but I'm neither qualified nor willing to get into another discussion about that. To put it simply, I can't bring myself to be convinced that they really are forbidden, and I happen to know of differing opinions on the matter... Whether or not you want to acknowledge the legitimacy of those differing opinions is your call, but the least you can do is recognize and respect those who hold them. And words of no benefit can apply to anything, but I'm sure you wouldn't apply the same logic to things other than music... They should be avoided to an extent, but they are not wrong in and of themselves. If they lead you away from the straight path, then they are an issue.
I apologise if my post seem harsh or dont make sense and apologies for the loong post ..
It wasn't harsh at all. I hope my responses made sense... I was in a bit of a rush while writing it, and I've got to head to class soon..
Ask away, brother/sister! I will try and answer insofar as my knowledge allows me to. With regards to your last question, I'd expect that the fact that they did this action is an indication that listening to the flute is an undesirable act at least, and forbidden at most? This must be understood in conjunction with other evidences too. That isn't the primary proof usually given to indicate that instruments are haraam, but rather the primary reference is usually the famous hadeeth in the Saheeh of Imaam al-Bukhari.
Thank you for the opportunity. May I begin with a general comment and perhaps you will respond. As I read the three papers I see what looks to me like undue reverence (I can't quite think of a better word) for many of the names quoted. Now I am not obviously saying that we should not with care read any opinion but it to me seem to go too far. Let me explain, I come from the academic world and commonly there we say that a significant, perhaps the most significant mark of a good teacher is that he/she always wants their students to exceed them, to go beyond what they have done or said - anything less is a kind of academic betrayal of the teacher. Just to be clear, this is not about forgetting what the teacher has said but going on to apply it in new way, to innovate and find new meaning or new application and new teachings.
I want to be careful what I say here but any good academic has to say to his/her students 'now find your own way' and in a kind of paradox, out of respect for the teacher they do that, they try to go beyond them. Otherwise what any academic has said becomes nothing but idolatry. Jacob Bronowski (you can find his quotes all over the web) said two pertinent ones here: "Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty" and "It is important that students bring a certain ragamuffin, barefoot irreverence to their studies; they are not here to worship what is known, but to question it. " Therefore, I find it impossible to ever think of locking myself into an opinion simply because someone of renown said it, that to me seems like intellectual suicide and a betrayal of a good teacher?
I respect your views and understand fully where you are coming from..but what i've seen from the posts are just opinions and nothing else..
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
If you acknowledge that they aren't in the same category, then I don't see why you would still have a hard time with this... I listen to lectures sometimes for enjoyment too, but that doesn't mean anything. I read books for enjoyment, and for some kind of emotional fulfillment... But I'm sure you wouldn't say reading a novel was frowned upon... And nobody denies that it is better for someone to be reading the Quran, but again, none of this can mean that there is anything iffy or wrong with music... For example, I'll listen to music as I work out in the gym. I don't really pay attention to it, but it helps me focus and pass the time. Should I do that with Quran instead? Probably not. In fact, if I played the Quran in the background and didn't pay attention to it, I'd be doing a disservice to the word of God... But that's precisely what music is for at times... So it doesn't make sense to try and say one is better than the other, so it should be loved/listened to instead... I hope all that made sense..
There are many things made for enjoyment, does that mean we should use them all? by making one better than the other it should make sense since one is the word of creator and the other is not..
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
This is your opinion though... I happen to know a few people who have memorized the Quran, and they're fairly piou. One is even an Imam... But they all listen to music sometimes for fun. I don't think they would agree with you that it's not fitting to listen to music once one has memorized the Quran. I think those things aren't really related.. You may disagree with me/them, but that's all it is... A disagreement. One that really just deals with opinions.
I dont know if i missed the part out where i was suppose to say we are not perfect, there are imaams who have left Islaam. For something like this you would refer to it as the decrease of imaan and the increase of imaan, where when there are things that take your emaan level low and to improve the levels one would keep himself occupied in the dhikr of Allaah or to do an act which would take you closer to Allaah. keep in mind imaam or those who have memorised the Qur'aan are or even scholars are also human, now this isnt an opinion, but rather something we can all agree upon insha'Allaah.
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
You do understand that not everyone see's this as wrong like you do, right? So you probably don't have to inform them. And don't generalize all hip hop... Trust me, it's not all bad (and I'm not even that huge of a hip hop fan. ) You're just talking about extremes now, and I think most people (myself included) would agree with you when it comes to those extremes. We can all agree that filthy or vulgar language is bad. Suggestive lyrics are bad. But that simply doesn't apply to all music... What you have to realize is that reality isn't just made up of those extremes. Life isn't just black and white... If youth are listening to hip hop, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. If a person isn't interested in the Quran, it isn't necessarily due to the fact that he listens to music.
The example i gave you is of teens who cant bare the sound of Qur'aan..could you please guide me to a certain hip hop song that isnt all bad or whether there is any purpous and benefit in listening to it? Yes true it isnt always due to the fact he listens to music, but a muslim being a muslim isnt all based upon just listening to Qur'aan either.
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
I agree, but I don't think this is turning into an argument... In fact, this is one of the most respectful discussions I've had on this board covering the topic of music.
thank you!..
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Like I said, of course one loves the Quran more. That's not an issue. But that doesn't mean one can't appreciate and listen to music either. I can love my family and love the Quran too, at the same time. Music is in a different category, and it's generally listened to for different reasons.
The bold part is what i wanted to know, the rest is upto the individual to decide, aslong as there is evidence..Also i wanted to know you have said in many posts that there are scholars who state or agree that music isnt made forbidden, could you post up references regarding this insha'Allaah..
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
It is my opinion, and the opinion of many others. Nobody disagrees with the idea that if anything (not just music) takes you away from spiritual growth, then it should be avoided. In that case though, it's up for the individual to decide.
Agreed, but to also become aware that his choice is agreed by Qur'aan and sunnah or else it means nothing.
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Nobody is saying you should love music more than the Quran. But once again, they're not exactly in the same category, so you don't exactly have to choose one and then completely abandon the other...
I respect your view but i have to disagree, the reason being i have no evidence regarding this, if there is then there should no doubt leave no reason for me to disagree
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
But like I said, music and alcohol are incredibly different in their effects, and I don't think it's really a valid comparison... There's even quite a difference in their prohibition from what I understand, with alcohol being under an explicit ban from Allah in the Quran (much like swine, but with a more concrete reason), while music is definitely not clear.
Yes i agree, but as far as I am aware there are hadeeth and also ayaah of the Qur'aan indicating the issue of music, though it isnt clear cut there are indications same for many other issues...
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Oh, don't apologize. I just wanted to let you know that while he's not a favorite of mine, I tried to take his arguments without any bias.
Just out of curiousity , what are the reasons you disagree with on this particular shaykh?
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
I think you've at least hinted that you think music is wrong, but I agree, you haven't labeled anyone as wrong. I think I've given you reasons as to why I don't agree with you on your reasons regarding why music should be avoided... Most of what you've said is opinion, and really doesn't apply to everyone. If it lowers your Iman, then it's probably best if you don't listen to it. But it's also best not to assume that this will apply to everyone... And I've mentioned elsewhere that I don't consider instruments to be forbidden, but I'm neither qualified nor willing to get into another discussion about that. To put it simply, I can't bring myself to be convinced that they really are forbidden, and I happen to know of differing opinions on the matter... Whether or not you want to acknowledge the legitimacy of those differing opinions is your call, but the least you can do is recognize and respect those who hold them. And words of no benefit can apply to anything, but I'm sure you wouldn't apply the same logic to things other than music... They should be avoided to an extent, but they are not wrong in and of themselves. If they lead you away from the straight path, then they are an issue.
But i agree I have posed opinions which i believe even though they have some point to them, without pure evidence they are worthless. Bro if in my posts i have mentioned anywhere that i dont respect someone for their view, please inform me..if i have i apologise..
The understanding i have gained from this discussion is all were opinions and none was evidence, whether it be yourself or myself..what i have hated most is when people base their opinions on issues as serious as this..people can say the same about alcohol, how its enjoyable, how it hasnt caused them any harm and so its considered lawful, and many other haraam things where they consider them to be lawful and yet their opinions mean nothing in the matter of deen., dont get me wrong, i respect your view but i disagree with it as much as you disagree with mine, but also because there has not been posted any evidence in regards to Qur'aan and ahadeeth, evidence is vital..im sure you can agree with that at the most..
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
It wasn't harsh at all. I hope my responses made sense... I was in a bit of a rush while writing it, and I've got to head to class soon..
no problem..
Jazakallaahu Khaayr for your time i appreciate it..
Last edited by Ğħαrєєвαħ; 06-01-2011 at 10:52 PM.
"Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).".."[Al Qur'aan 3:2]
Why not a Qariah ?
She said she has a good voice !
Just for a clarification, singing the Qur'an is forbidden. It's recited in a melodious tone, but not sang.
And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.” [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]
Thank you for the opportunity. May I begin with a general comment and perhaps you will respond. As I read the three papers I see what looks to me like undue reverence (I can't quite think of a better word) for many of the names quoted. Now I am not obviously saying that we should not with care read any opinion but it to me seem to go too far. Let me explain, I come from the academic world and commonly there we say that a significant, perhaps the most significant mark of a good teacher is that he/she always wants their students to exceed them, to go beyond what they have done or said - anything less is a kind of academic betrayal of the teacher. Just to be clear, this is not about forgetting what the teacher has said but going on to apply it in new way, to innovate and find new meaning or new application and new teachings.
I want to be careful what I say here but any good academic has to say to his/her students 'now find your own way' and in a kind of paradox, out of respect for the teacher they do that, they try to go beyond them. Otherwise what any academic has said becomes nothing but idolatry. Jacob Bronowski (you can find his quotes all over the web) said two pertinent ones here: "Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty" and "It is important that students bring a certain ragamuffin, barefoot irreverence to their studies; they are not here to worship what is known, but to question it. " Therefore, I find it impossible to ever think of locking myself into an opinion simply because someone of renown said it, that to me seems like intellectual suicide and a betrayal of a good teacher?
I'm genuinely short on time at the moment, but I hope a few brief points will suffice in response:
1. Although I referred to this as a research paper (the sites hosts a number of research papers on various topics), this particular series of articles appears more likely to me to be a translation of a book or essay on the topic from the original Arabic.
2. Many of the names are mentioned as part of what is known in Arabic as an isnad (chain of narration). This is used to determine the authenticity of a particular narration by scrutisining each name in the chain and evaluating the authenticity of the narration based on what is known about each individual who transmitted the narration through the chain. As an aside, the science (and indeed it is a science) of hadeeth authentication is considered to be one of the greatest achievements in human intellectual history. And that is no exaggeration. You can gain more insight into this topic from this lecture by a certain Dr. Jonathan Brown:
3. In other places, the article quotes the name of a certain scholar along with their views on the topic. I wouldn't describe this as undue reverence, but while recognising that no scholar is infallible, certain scholars have become well-known historically for their knowledge in certain areas and their deep insight into matters of the religion, and, through this, have essentially established themselves as authorities on religious issues. However, individual scholars can sometimes be wrong and so the final say should always rest with what God and his messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) said. If something which a scholar says contradicts that, then what that scholar said is to be rejected.
4. Islamic history is actually replete with instances where a student ends up holding a different opinion on an issue than the opinion held by their teacher. It's all about trying one's best to understand the religion as it was intended by God and his messenger. That's where the final say lies. Therefore, you shouldn't think that Muslims are so in awe of their teachers/scholars that they take everything which they say to the exclusion of everything else. Hopefully, this is clear.
If you do have any more questions, I probably won't have time to answer them but maybe somebody else here will. I hope this will do for now.
"I spent thirty years learning manners, and I spent twenty years learning knowledge."
I think maybe this will help make you understand where i am coming from insha'Allaah
Thanks for the link and I watched both videos and two things struck me. First the words 'idle talk' morphs into a Music - is there no word in Arabic for Music and if not why can't the Qu'ran be clear? Second, he gives no rationale that made sense (to me). He mentions music being used to sell but so do a lot of other things - on this site there are adverts but that cannot be a reason anyone knew about 1400 years ago. He also suggests it all comes from Satan and I can't buy that at all - there is no doubt bad music and music can lead to bad things but so can 101 other things, books for example.
Thanks for the link and I watched both videos and two things struck me. First the words 'idle talk' morphs into a Music - is there no word in Arabic for Music and if not why can't the Qu'ran be clear? Second, he gives no rationale that made sense (to me). He mentions music being used to sell but so do a lot of other things - on this site there are adverts but that cannot be a reason anyone knew about 1400 years ago. He also suggests it all comes from Satan and I can't buy that at all - there is no doubt bad music and music can lead to bad things but so can 101 other things, books for example.
You are welcome..
Thank you for your questions
Idle talk= talk about stuff there is no benefit in, it may morph into the context of music because most music as far as I am aware involves no beneficial talk towards a muslim, though there maybe some who disagree with me that is there opinions, There is the Qur'aan to listen to..
Also I am not so knowledgeable so I will leave it to those with more knowledge...
Bad music has no good influence on one, good music makes one think they will remain in this world for ever and other stuff, though feel free to disagree with me if you will...
It depends what is your understanding of 'good music'?
Differences between books is that either there are different genres e.g. Horror, adventure, romance, fiction, non-fiction etc etc.. same for music e.g hip hop, rnb, pop, etc etc
So yes there are some bad stuff in books..does that not mean we should then keep away from reading them?
If i have not fully answered properly i hope someone else will insha'Allaah
.. peace ..
"Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).".."[Al Qur'aan 3:2]
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Advice Please-- Is Music Haraam? (OP)
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