I wanted to have a discussion with those muslims who would call themselves 'moderate' or 'secular'. It is very important that we understand the position of Islam in our lives.
Insha'Allah we will also cover issues such as music, movies, and the secular lifestyle.
We should remember that Islam is the moderate path. Hence, Muslims have no need for labels such as conservative or secular. Islam is the complete and balanced system that will grant us success in this world and the next.
Last edited by Ansar Al-'Adl; 04-22-2005 at 11:39 PM.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
If we look at the things Allah has forbidden us to do, we can actually see Hugh advantages to our health and our lives in general. Let us go through a few forbidden things and see the advantages and disadvantages:
***ALCOHOL***
ADVANTAGES: Get "excited" and gain confidence through the effect of Alcohol. Certain wines good for the heart. DISADVANTAGES: Hangover, alcoholic vomiting which is 100 times worse than a regular vomit, liver and kidney failure, certain diseases and illness caused by Alcoholic drinks. Though wine may have a positive effect on the body, it has a negative effect to the kidney, blood concentration and to the eyes. Severe pains and headache 24 hours after consummation of alcohol, addiction, fights, suicide, injuries, Zina (adultery) without knowing, sexually transmitted diseases, break-up of marriages etc.
***NIGHTCLUB***
ADVANTAGES: Fun for a little while. Have a quick "relationship" with the opposite gender. DISADVANTAGES: Hearing affected long-term over a long period of time due to the very loud music usually present at Nightclubs. Fights, injuries, danger present throughout, Zina (adultery), sexually transmitted diseases, headache and unrest the next day, especially if one has work or study etc.
***GIRLFRIEND/BOYFRIEND***
ADVANTAGES: Enjoy a kiss once in a while. Sexual relationship. DISADVANTAGES: Sexually transmitted diseases, break-ups that end in heartaches, severe depression, arguments, fights between friends, betrayal, sometimes suicide, missing work or study, ending in being sacked or losing out on an education etc.
There are many more that can be added to the list of course, as that was just an example. for every Haram or Sin, though there may be some "fun" found in it, always the disadvantages will outweigh the advantages at one stage or another, no matter what, which is why we are told in Islamic terms:
Obey Allah and His Messenger (salla Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam), and you shall have a rewarding life now and a most magnificent reward with your Lord when you shall meet Him on The Day of Rising. Disobey Allah and His Messenger (salla Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam), and you shall have a miserable life now and and a most severe punishment the day you face your Lord on The Day of Rising.
I think it does have some impact on their lives, but only to an extent. Islam is fine when it comes to Ramadan and celebrating Eid, but when it comes to prohibition of other things that might make their lives more difficicult or challenge their current ideaology they discard it as extremity.
You are describing weak muslims, what I heard secular muslims doesn't consider all the things declared haram in Quran as bad.
In your sense, weak muslims were always there since the time of early muslims... but why do secular muslims give them a new name? >> http://www.secularislam.org/
It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and obedience to Allâh, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allâh, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masâkîn (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salât, and gives the Zakât, and keep their word whenever they make a promise, and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of persecution, hardship, and war. Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious).
Do secular muslims see premartial sex, drinking, and things like that as haram?
depends from person to person. I wouldn't mind having sex before marriage and be lucky enough to make my fantasy become a reality (3some with 2 girls). I'm don't drink. We belive in Allah but don't belive in all these rules that prevent us from having fun and doing whatever makes us feel good. We want to go out with friends (guys and girls) and watch a movie and talk about it. We find many rules of Islam exremely strict.
depends from person to person. I wouldn't mind having sex before marriage and be lucky enough to make my fantasy become a reality (3some with 2 girls). I'm don't drink. We belive in Allah but don't belive in all these rules that prevent us from having fun and doing whatever makes us feel good. We want to go out with friends (guys and girls) and watch a movie and talk about it. We find many rules of Islam exremely strict.
May Allah Guide you brother to the Sirrat Al-Mustaqim
wasalam
“Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun
"It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl
024.002 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
024.003 Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
Makevali, do you know what fornication is? It is having sex when you are not married. There is the punishment stated CLEARLY above, and that is only the punishment of this world. The Punishment of the Next life is greater. Ask Allah for forgivness for he forgives one if he sincerely repents.
068.033 Such is the Punishment (in this life); but greater is the Punishment in the Hereafter,- if only they knew!
024.024 On the Day when their tongues, their hands, and their feet will bear witness against them as to their actions.
024.026 Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honourable.
024.030 Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And God is well acquainted with all that they do
Last edited by Ibn Abi Ahmed; 04-24-2005 at 01:49 AM.
“Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun
"It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl
024.021 O ye who believe! follow not Satan's footsteps: if any will follow the footsteps of Satan, he will (but) command what is shameful and wrong: and were it not for the grace and mercy of God on you, not one of you would ever have been pure: but God doth purify whom He pleases: and God is One Who hears and knows (all things).
wasalam
“Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun
"It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl
to enjoy life but your answer is to please Allah, right?
you keep trying to anticipate my response...relax. We'll get to my views later.
Now you stated that your purpose in life is have fun. :confused:
Is this your purpose in life? Do you realize that there are billions of people out their starving and poor?
Do you realize that there are so many human beings crying in pain from sickness and disease?
Do you realize how many children there are, still wondering why their parents were taken from them, by the cruel hands of death?
What do you say to these human beings, who live in endless suffering while you enjoy yourself and recline in worldy pleasures? What response do you give to these people when they ask what their purpose in life is?
To have fun?
You say you believe in God. Do you honestly believe that God has placed us on this planet, amidst so much suffering, chaos, bloodshed, and corruption, for the amusement of a select few like yourself??
My second question to you is, do you belive in the messengers and messages, which God has sent to humanity to guide them back to, the straight path.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
Is this your purpose in life? Do you realize that there are billions of people out their starving and poor?
Do you realize that there are so many human beings crying in pain from sickness and disease?
Do you realize how many children there are, still wondering why their parents were taken from them, by the cruel hands of death?
What do you say to these human beings, who live in endless suffering while you enjoy yourself and recline in worldy pleasures? What response do you give to these people when they ask what their purpose in life is?
To have fun?
You say you believe in God. Do you honestly believe that God has placed us on this planet, amidst so much suffering, chaos, bloodshed, and corruption, for the amusement of a select few like yourself??
My second question to you is, do you belive in the messengers and messages, which God has sent to humanity to guide them back to, the straight path.
yes, many humans are suffering but guess what? I won't be able to stop all that or anything. Every man for himself. It's a cruel world we live in, you can't think of helping others 24/7, that's not gonna get you anywhere in life.
I dont' care about most of the messages because they are full of strict laws which prevents me from having fun and having freedom.
"What response do you give to these people when they ask what their purpose in life is?"
Life's not fair. You know it, I know it and sometimes life's nothing but a -----.
My friend, you crave a sense of freedom and fun, and dismiss strickness am i right? Well, will you be having fun and freedom in the grave, or will you suffer the punishment of the grave? Allaah knows best.
Allah is forgiving and nice so it's all good. so we are just pawns in his playground which he looks over and have a laugh, wow that makes me feel good.
yes, many humans are suffering but guess what? I won't be able to stop all that or anything. Every man for himself. It's a cruel world we live in, you can't think of helping others 24/7, that's not gonna get you anywhere in life.
Please answer my question.
As it is, the Qur'an warned of such a mentality 1400 years ago: 45:23-24 Have you not seen the one who takes as his god his own vain desires? Allah has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition?
And they say: "What is there but our life in this world? We shall die and we live, and nothing but time can destroy us." But of that they have no knowledge: they merely conjecture.
Amazing how the Qur'an responds directly to your argument.
And I am commanded to reply to your argument as follows: 45:26 Say: "It is Allah Who gives you life, then gives you death; then He will gather you together for the Day of Judgment about which there is no doubt": But most men do not understand.
But thouugh I have given you the true response, the truth is what the Qur'an has just said, namely most men do not understand. Hence, my duty is to attempt to explain this to you, in order that you may understand.
You stated that the purpose of life was to have fun, and I pointed out how that is blatantly false.
What then is the purpose of life?
I dont' care about most of the messages because they are full of strict laws which prevents me from having fun and having freedom.
If you truly believe in God, then you wouldn't care what he commanded you, no matter how strict or how cruel. Nevertheless, there is nothing in Islam that is strict and prevents freedom, and I say this as a concious muslim. Islam rather liberates the soul, which you have enslaved to animal desires.
My friend, you display the classic ignorance about the world we live in. From your statements, it is clear that you are disconnected from reality and have no real understanding of our mission in life. You live an empty life of material pleasure, yet how do you know you will not die as you are reading this?
As you read these lines, consider your eyes that carefully examine these letters and words. Consider your heart that beats softly as you read my post. Consider your steady inhalation and exhalation. Now imagine, that God, whom you claim to belive in, stopped your breath as you read these very words. You are now reading this sentence and suddenly your lungs stop dilating. you can no longer breathe. You are now choking for breathe and your head begins to pound. Your life of serv itude to animalistic desires comes to an abrupt stop.
Within just over two minutes, brain death would follow. That was your life. And they told you that you would live for at least seventy more years! And you were decieved into thinking that this life was to have fun, even though God condemned this view in the book you never bothered to read:
23:115 Then did you think that We created you uselessly and that to Us you would not be returned?
And you did not open your eyes to the clear warning in the Qur'an, which God purposefully directed towards YOU, Makaveli:
35:5 O men! Certainly the promise of Allah is true. Let not then this present life deceive you, nor let the Chief Deceiver (Satan) deceive you about Allah.
And so as your lifeless corpse collapses in the very place that you sit right now, you will soon see only darkness. You will want to scream for help, but there will be no voice in you. You will want to cry but the eyes that you used in an evil way, will shed no tears.
And as you feel yourself leaving this world, you will be confronted by a powerful servant of the same Creator whom you claimed to believe in, yet recklessly disobeyed. This servant of God is the Angel of Death.
Are you ready for him? As he approaches your corpse he will remove your soul either painlessly for the true believer, or with a terrible ripping and shredding for the sinner.
Imagine your shock when you recieve the latter.
At that moment you would sacrifice anything in the world to be given a second chance to draw closer to your Lord and serve your Creator with all your heart. You would do anything for the opportunity to go back and follow the words of you Lord which you carelessly disregarded.
THIS IS THAT OPPORTUNITY, MAKAVELI. DO NOT LET IT PASS IN VAIN.
I will end with an excerpt from an article on the purpose of life. I will post a little bit of the article regularly for you to read.
What Is The Purpose Of Life ?
They say that a fool lives to eat and a wise man eats to live. But then the question remains: for what purpose does the wise man live? Living is not an end by itself. There has to be a purpose for man to live for. So what is this purpose?
Where from? Where to? And Why?
Any ignorance, however great, could be forgiven except for man to be ignorant about the secret of his existence, his aim in life and what will be his outcome after death. Some thinkers express these questions in simple words: where from? Where to? And why? Meaning: where did I come from? Where am I going? And why am I here?
Those who only believe in the material world and who do not believe in a Creator- the atheists- only believe in sensory data. They say that this universe and everything in it came by itself. All its order is simply due to blind coincidence. They say that man is simply like an animal or a plant and that he will exist for a short period and then end like any other animal or plant.
An Arab Poet, Elya Abu Madhi (a born-Christian), not long ago expressed his uncertainty about the purpose of life in his Arabic poem Al-Talasim, meaning “puzzles,” which I have translated into English. He says in his poem:
I came not knowing from where, but I came.
And I saw a pathway in front of me, so I walked.
And I will remain walking, whether I want this or not.
How did I come? How did I see my pathway?
I do not know!
Am I new or am I old in this existence?
Am I free and unrestrained, or do I walk in chains?
Do I lead myself in my life, or am I being led?
I wish I know, but…
I do not know!
And my path, oh what is my path? Is it long or is it short?
Am I ascending in it, or am I going down and sinking?
Am I the one who is walking on the road,
or is it the road that is moving?
Or are we both standing, but it is the time that is running?
I do not know!
Before I became a full human, do you see
if I were nothing, impossible? Or do you see that I was something?
Is there an answer to this puzzle, or will it remain eternal?
I do not know ... and why do I not know??
I do not know!
This feeling of doubt and confusion about the presence of a Creator and whether He sent messengers and prophets to guide mankind must be quite painful because it deprives the Atheist and the Agnostic of tranquility, security and peace of mind. The unbelievers do not have credible answers to the purpose of one’s existence. And thus they say that man lives for himself and for the pleasures of this life. So what happens when life turns sour? What happens when one goes through hardships? It is no coincidence then that the largest number of suicides takes place amongst Atheists, Agnostics and people who do not know their purpose in life. Do you know which country has the largest number of suicides? It’s Japan. In the year ending March 2000, there were 33,000 suicides in Japan. That is 91 suicides per day or 1 suicide every 15 minutes! This despite Japan being the second largest economy in the world wherein people do not have to worry about providing a roof over their heads or about food or medical care.
Peace be with you, dear brother Makaveli.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
What response do you give to these people when they ask what their purpose in life is?"
Life's not fair. You know it, I know it and sometimes life's nothing but a -----.
You did not answer the question at all! They are asking you about their purpose in life. Why they are here. And you are ranting about "Life's not fair".
If you don't have an answer to the question, the least you can do is admit it. Don't give me this garbage. Answer the question directly. What is the purpose of life?
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
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you keep trying to anticipate my response...relax. We'll get to my views later.
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