Invoking others other than Allah???

And who is in greater error than he who calls besides Allah upon those that will not answer him till the day of resurrection and they are heedless of their call?[Surah Ahqaf Ayah 5]

Now, surely, sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful. [Surah Zumar Ayah 3]

format_quote Originally Posted by M H Khan

Guard yourselves against the Day on which one soul shall not avail another - no intercession shall be accepted, no ransom shall be taken and no help shall be given.[2:48]

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed

Intercession is only going to happen on the Day of Judgement. Allah will tell the person who will be able to intercede who he can intercede for. You may ask, what then is the point of intercession? The point of intercession is to raise the status of the person doing intercession.

Those two quotes contradict each other. One says there is no intercession while the other says ther will be in the hear after. Whic is which?

format_quote Originally Posted by Volume 8, Book 76, Number 571:

Narrated 'Imran bin Husain:

The Prophet said, "Some people will be taken out of the Fire through the intercession of Muhammad they will enter Paradise and will be called Al-Jahannamiyin (the Hell Fire people)."

So which is true??

format_quote Originally Posted by KHAN

Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and that besides Allah, you have no protector or helper![2:107]

Yes besides him one has no protector or helper. But it is thorugh others granted permission by Allah that help and protection are achived.

format_quote Originally Posted by Quran

“Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever living, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission?...” (2:255) “Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power, regulating the affair, there is no intercessor except after His permission;…” (10:3)

I have said many times that there are some chosen people. The but and the except prove this.

Now if you have to say anything, do so regarding this ayat. What do you have to say about it?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed

The verse negates any intercession by Allah's creatures of their own volition, and therefore seeking such intercession from other than Allah , is an act of major Shirk including idols which their worshipers claim can intercede with Allah on their behalf.

Haha.
1.Unlike Idols who were believed to be Gods, these chosen people are not.
2. It is the blief that these people can do nothing without Allah's accepatance. It is throgh them that one contacts Allah. Just like prayers and dua are a means to contact allah, these people too are amongs them. now don tell me that using a telephone to contact someone is shirk.

format_quote Originally Posted by Khan

believers! Spend out of the sustenance which We have provided for you before the arrival of that Day when there will be no bargaining, friendship or intercession. It is the unbelievers who are wrongdoers.[2:254]

You posted as such but the traditions say

format_quote Originally Posted by Volume 8, Book 76, Number 570:

Narrated Anas:

Allah's Apostle said, "Allah will gather all the people on the Day of Resurrection and they will say, 'Let us request someone to intercede for us with our Lord so that He may relieve us from this place of ours.' Then they will go to Adam and say, 'You are the one whom Allah created with His Own Hands, and breathed in you of His soul, and ordered the angels to prostrate to you; so please intercede for us with our Lord.' Adam will reply, 'I am not fit for this undertaking, and will remember his sin, and will say, 'Go to Noah, the first Apostle sent by Allah' They will go to him and he will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking', and will remember his sin and say, 'Go to Abraham whom Allah took as a Khalil. They will go to him (and request similarly). He will reply, 'I am not fit for this undertaking,' and will remember his sin and say, 'Go to Moses to whom Allah spoke directly.' They will go to Moses and he will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking,' and will remember his sin and say, 'Go to Jesus.' They will go to him, and he will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking, go to Muhammad as Allah has forgiven his past and future sins.' They will come to me and I will ask my Lord's permission, and when I see Him, I will fall down in prostration to Him, and He will leave me in that state as long as (He) Allah will, and then I will be addressed. 'Raise up your head (O Muhammad)! Ask, and your request will be granted, and say, and your saying will be listened to; intercede, and your intercession will be accepted.' Then I will raise my head, and I will glorify and praise my Lord with a saying(i.e. invocation) He will teach me, and then I will intercede, Allah will fix a limit for me (i.e., certain type of people for whom I may intercede), and I will take them out of the (Hell) Fire and let them enter Paradise. Then I will come back (to Allah) and fall in prostration, and will do the same for the third and fourth times till no-one remains in the (Hell) Fire except those whom the Qur'an has imprisoned therein." (The sub-narrator, Qatada used to say at that point, "...those upon whom eternity (in Hell) has been imposed.") (See Hadith No. 3, Vol 6).

format_quote Originally Posted by Khan

If Allah helps you, then there is none who can overcome you. If He forsakes you, then who else is there other than Him who can help you? Therefore, in Allah let the believers put their trust.[3:160]

Very true but I pose you a question. Why would these chosen people try to overcome you when Allah forsakes you?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed

First of all, what is intercession? Lets give a practical example:

You need a job. Your freind knows the CEO of the company and he will talk to him to get you a job. Thus your freind becomes the Intercessor. Now what does this imply?

1) The CEO does not know anything about you.

2) He must be informed of you by someone else.

Now lets put this into perspective to our topic.

You want Allah to forgive you, you want him to grant you a place in Jannah. The "Righteous" man in the grave and the "Auwliya" are your freind. They will speak to Allah about you and ask for forgiveness for you. What does this Imply?

1) Allah does not know anything about you. This goes against many of Allah's names such as All-Hearer, Al-Seer, and All-Knower.

2) He must be informed by someone about you. Again it goes against Allah's names.

So by calling unto someone else besides Allah you are infact saying that Allah does not hear you nor does he know of you but only can 'learn' about you through the 'auwliya'. You are rejecting many of Allah's names an attributes and such are

Does it all make sense now?

vert practical example, but if what you say is true that since Allah knows why should we intercede, then why does Allah ask us to pray, recite dua and all else?

Sorry for not puttin it all in one post. It didnt fit

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Soldier

Those two quotes contradict each other. One says there is no intercession while the other says ther will be in the hear after. Whic is which?

So which is true??

They dont. Your taking the Verse out of context. That verse is directed at the People of the Book, the Bani Isreal..i.e. The Jews.

My quote refers to what your doing. Calling on others in this life. Intercession will only occur on the Day of Judgement and only those whom Allah permits will be able to intercede.

Your blind following is doing just that. It is blinding you to the Truth. We are quoting you Quran and the hadiths, yet you are doing your utmost to find a contradiction between them. Alas for you, there is no contradiction ever between the Words of Allah and the Words of His Messenger.

I have said many times that there are some chosen people. The but and the except prove this.

Now if you have to say anything, do so regarding this ayat. What do you have to say about it?

First, you are breaking forum rules and are subject to a warn.

Please refrain from typing extremely huge letters in order to get your message through. 5% warning

Second, go back and read my last post about this. If you will continue to repeat your claim, whilst proving nothing of yourself, I will close this thread.

Haha.
1.Unlike Idols who were believed to be Gods, these chosen people are not.
2. It is the blief that these people can do nothing without Allah's accepatance. It is throgh them that one contacts Allah. Just like prayers and dua are a means to contact allah, these people too are amongs them. now don tell me that using a telephone to contact someone is shirk.

Again you repeat yourself.

1- Actually, Idols were used to get to Allah. The arabs knew that, but the beleived the idols to be intercessors. They knew there was only one Creator. But they worshipped many.

La Illaha Illalah does not simply mean There is no God beside Allah. The truer meaning of that is There is none worthy of being Worshipped Except Allah.

Tawheed is of three categories.

a)Tawheed Ar-Rububiyyah - Oneness of Allah's Lordship

b)Tawheed Al-Uluhiyyah - Only Allah is worthy of being Worshipped

c) Tawheed Asmaa a Was Sifaat - Allah's names and Attributes are only His.

Dua is an act of Worship. If it is directed at anyone else, even in the most trivial manner it you are guilty of shirk.

Therefore, by calling out to the dead to ask them to pray to Allah for you, you are

a) Negating Tawheed Al-Uluhiyyah, by worshipping them. Dua is an act of Worship as explained before.

b) Negating Tawheed Asmaa a Was Sifaat - You are implying that Allah does not know of you and that he must be 'informed' of you by these "auwliya".


2- So why are you calling out to them then? Your using different words, and are trying to avoid the use of the word 'intercession'. I have already showed you the proofs and conditions of Intercession and when and where it will occur.

2b- Are you capable of differentiating the living from the dead? If so, then you would know that when you are using a telephone you are talking to someone who is alive.

Also, why are you using a telephone to call him? Because he cannot hear you, right? Put it into perspective. You are saying that Allah cannot hear you, thats why you need to use these people to get to Allah. i.e. they are your telephone.
You are denying Allah's names and Attributes. That is an act of Kufr. By using your anaolgy, you proved my point.

vert practical example, but if what you say is true that since Allah knows why should we intercede, then why does Allah ask us to pray, recite dua and all else?

Like i said before, Allah will tell the person who he is pleased with to do the intercession, and he will tell him who he can intercede for. That is only to raise the rank of the person doing the intercession.

Dua is the only thing that can change Qadr. That is another topic of itself.

First, if it is subject to warn then why is it there?

And, it would be better to close the thread coz you dont want to accept.
...and they have eyes but they cannot see... Sura Baqarah

...and we have placed chains on thier necks.... Yasin

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Soldier

First, if it is subject to warn then why is it there?

And, it would be better to close the thread coz you dont want to accept.
...and they have eyes but they cannot see... Sura Baqarah

...and we have placed chains on thier necks.... Yasin

Because you broke the froum rules. Please take the time to read over them.

Ofcourse we wont accept. Because you have not brought any explicit proof. And please, as nice at it may seem, dont declare others kafir and put upon them verses of Punishment from the Quran. You are in no position to judge us.

The Prophet SAW has said, if a muslim declares another muslim a Kafir, then one of the two are not muslims.

Blind following will not lead you to the right path. The Quran and the Sunnah are the right path. I - and others, have shown you explicit proofs that condemn and forbid the very thing you are supporting. If you wish to put your self before Allah and His Messenger, then the burden of doing so lies upon you.

An-Nisa - 65. But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad ) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Soldier

These Verses in clear terms says that those slain in the way of Allah (swt) are not dead but alive. And they enjoy special blessings from Allah (swt). Hence when we address them they can hear us as they are alive.

The fallacy here is that you assume that the life of those in the grave is the same as this life - it is not. The life in the grave is a totally different life, disconnected from our present life. That is what it means to die.

Prophet Salih (as) speaks with the souls of his people;
“So they slew the she –camel and revolted against their lord’s commandment, and they said: O Salih! Bring us what you threatened us with, if you are one of the apostles. Then the earthquake overtook them, so they became motionless bodies in their abode. Then he turned away from them and said; O my people, I did certainly deliver to you the message of my Lord, and I gave you good advice, but you do not love those who give good advice”. (Sura A’araf: 77-79).
[...]
The third ayat shows that Prophet Salih (as) spoke to them after their death and destruction and said “I presented you the divine message but you disliked someone giving you advice.”

So, if these peole can not hear, why did Prophet Salih say so?

This in itself is not evidence the dead can hear. Because it is just as likely that the Prophet Saalih spoke these words while they could not hear, just as it is not necessary that Pharoah heard the words addressed to Him while drowning
10:91 Now (you believe) while you refused to believe before and you were one of the Mufsidoon (evil-doers, corrupts, etc.).

While the scholars of Ahlus-Sunnah differ on the issue of the dead hearing, it should be obvious that whether they can or they can't, it does not justify invoking them/supplicating to them.

This answers your other quotes which basically attempt to establish the hearing of the dead.

1.Unlike Idols who were believed to be Gods, these chosen people are not.

Actually, the mushrikeen arabs believed Allah was God:
29:61-63. If you were to ask them: "Who has created the heavens and the earth and subjected the sun and the moon?" They will surely reply: "Allâh." How then are they deviating (as polytheists and disbelievers)? Allâh enlarges the provision for whom He wills of His slaves, and straitens it for whom (He wills). Verily, Allâh is the All Knower of everything. If you were to ask them: "Who sends down water (rain) from the sky, and gives life therewith to the earth after its death?" They will surely reply: "Allâh." Say: "All the praises and thanks be to Allâh!" Nay! Most of them have no sense.

And they believed that their idols had no power in and of themselves:
Ibn Abbas reported that the mushrikeen would say (during Hajj): "I respond to your call, O Allah, I respond to your call. There is no partner that you have..." at this, the Prophet saws would interject and say, "Woe to you! Stop (here), stop (here)," but they would proceed, "...except a partner that belongs to you. You control him, and all that he controls." They would say this while performing tawaf around the Ka'bah. (Sahih Muslim 2/842)

See this post where I responded to this claim in more detail:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showpost...0&postcount=14

2. It is the blief that these people can do nothing without Allah's accepatance. It is throgh them that one contacts Allah. Just like prayers and dua are a means to contact allah, these people too are amongs them.

What you have said is exactly what the mushrikeen arabs used to say:
Qur'an 39:3. "As to those beings other than Allah whom we have taken as Awliya, we do not worship them except that they may draw us closer to Him;"

Qur'an 10:18. "Those are only our intercessors with Allah."

Yes,in my opinion,it is pure shirk.

Say if you misplace something,PRAY to allah s.w.t

IF allah s.w.t wants you to find whatever you have misplaced,you will find it. But if allah s.w.t doesnt want you to find it,then you wont.

...but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not. (2:216)

By visiting these people that say they can tell you exactly where such and such things can be found,..yes,time to time they are correct,and that is ONLY because ALLAH S.W.T wants them to tell you the truth...so that allah s.w.t can test you,to see wether you will relay on on someone other than allah s.w.t.

And so if any of us is blown away by these people,if we are amazed at how accurate they are,and we start relying on them for all our answers,we'll be commiting Shirk.

Allah s.w.t is know as the 'all knower' for a reason , NO HUMAN has the rights to steal that title from our lord.

Not yesterday.
Not today.
Not tommorrow.
Never.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Soldier

Salaam

I am not a scholar but here are my views

When you are afriad or shy about meeting or asking someone something, you ask someone who is closer to this person to ask on your behalf.
The same way, in times of difficulties, if you ask through the prophet or shaheed since they are closer to Allah, they ask on your behalf hence your hajaat is accepted.

Example
Allah gave Hazrat Isa the power to cure the sick. Now when people went to him and asked him to cure them, Isa (as) cured them. Is this shirk? No

Why?
because Isa cured through the grace of Allah. The same way when your parents ask through the shaheed, they ask the shaheed to ask Allah to grant the wish.

Isa a.s was,..IS pure.He was a blessing to his nation.He came to his nation for a reason,to purify them.And in the process he healed them.

NONE of the scholors/'saints' of our times can be compared to Isa a.s.

So your arguement ends where it begun.

Sidi,here is a suggestion,..instead of 'boycott israel',..how about we all boycott shirk?

Even women that write to 'womens magazines' and ask for advice 'what should i do?help!',..is simply WRONG.

If allah s.w.t sends harm your way,no1 can save you. And if allah s.w.t protects you,no1 can harm you.

My #1 advice to the world is,..Make Dua'. Lots of it.We need it.

I read all your posts, and thats saying something!

I thank you all for answering.
Ansar Adl, these idols were not favoured by Allah note that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zubair

NONE of the scholors/'saints' of our times can be compared to Isa a.s.

I was talking about asking Muhammad (saw). Do you mean to say he too was less than Isa (as)?

format_quote Originally Posted by Zubair

Even women that write to 'womens magazines' and ask for advice 'what should i do?help!',..is simply WRONG.

I thik you do not know the meaning of shirk. Perhaps you could read about it.


For the rest, I can not argue with people whose minds are closed. Stop thinking in a box and expand your horizon. That much I tell you as a brother.

When you have opened your minds, and are ready to learn, PM me and we will start another discussion.

For now, so long!

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Soldier

I read all your posts, and thats saying something!

I thank you all for answering.

So Inshallah, i hope we've gotten the point across?

I was talking about asking Muhammad (saw). Do you mean to say he too was less than Isa (as)?

I think the brother said

'NONE of the scholors/'saints' of our times can be compared to Isa a.s.

I thik you do not know the meaning of shirk. Perhaps you could read about it.

Rathar, I think you do not know the meaning of Tawheed, and it seems you need to read and learn about it.

For the rest, I can not argue with people whose minds are closed. Stop thinking in a box and expand your horizon. That much I tell you as a brother.

There is no 'opening' of a mind when it comes to disbelieving in Allah and even coming the tiniest bit close to Shirk. Rathar you are putting your opinions above that of Allah's Messenger and as you yourself have read, we have not provided anything of our minds, but the Words of Allah and the Words of His Messenger.

Al-Araf- 146. I shall turn away from My Ayât (verses of the Qur'ân) those who behave arrogantly on the earth, without a right, and (even) if they see all the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they will not believe in them. And if they see the way of righteousness (monotheism, piety, and good deeds), they will not adopt it as the Way, but if they see the way of error (polytheism, crimes and evil deeds), they will adopt that way, that is because they have rejected Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and were heedless (to learn a lesson) from them.

When you have opened your minds, and are ready to learn, PM me and we will start another discussion.

We will reply to you with the Words of Allah that he commanded to the Prophet to say:

Al-Anam- 162. Say (O Muhammad ): "Verily, my Salât (prayer), my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allâh, the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

163. "He has no partner. And of this I have been commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims."

164. Say: "Shall I seek a lord other than Allâh, while He is the Lord of all things? No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another. Then unto your Lord is your return, so He will tell you that wherein you have been differing."

For now, so long!

Al-Isra- 81. And say: "Truth (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism or this Qur'ân or Jihâd against polytheists) has come and Bâtil (falsehood, i.e. Satan or polytheism, etc.) has vanished. Surely! Bâtil is ever bound to vanish."

And please see this:

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...n-tawheed.html