Againb Root, you're not understanding the issue. The reason why anal sex is a proof of the harmful consequences of homosexuality is not because anal sex is only practiced by gays, but because gays only practice anal sex!
And as Br. Aqib has pointed out, either way it is forbidden in Islam, therefore it serves as both medical and Islamic evidence against homosexuality.
I accept that anal sex can be a risky business and I am not here to support it nor defend it since I to do not practice it. Homosexuality, and it's acceptance is the issue here. We cannot just state that because homosexuality involves anal sex albeit because homosexuality only practice anal sex.
An individuals right has to be taken into account, without taking a standpoint that homosexuals are in anyway a product of the West or have a mental/physical ailment.
An individuals right has to be taken into account, without taking a standpoint that homosexuals are in anyway a product of the West or have a mental/physical ailment.
Come on Root, now you're just being argumentative The Islamic standpoint is 'hate the action, not the person'. I mean, I hate the act of smoking, but that doesn't mean I go out and beat smokers to within an inch of their life. Similarly, I don't discriminate them (though I might ask them to put out their cigarette when they're in my house), so in that sense I accept them.
if your child was gay, what would you do??? if they couldnt resist their feelings and already had a relationship with another samesex partner, what would you do???
First of all, there is an assumption made in this question. That assumption is that homosexuality is a genetic trait, something people are born with. This is only one position in the scientific community as researchers believe that physical environment has a tremendous impact as well. The born-gay theory is discussed in great detail in articles linked here: http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html
Secondly, the question presupposes poor parenting on the part of the parents who are unaware of the child's situation until they are already into such a "relationship".
But for the sake of argument, were someone in this position, they should take the necessary steps to educate their child about their illness, like many other children who are born with illnesses, born blind, born deaf, etc. Then one can teach their child how to cope with this illness islamically and how to restrain it.
if they still said that they believe in allah azwajjal even tho homosexuality is a major sin in islam. would you still accept them and love them as you used to love them???
The child should know that it is a sin in Islam, and the parents should make dua to Allah swt to help their child. Of course, the parents should love their child.
Greetings Root,
format_quote Originally Posted by root
I accept that anal sex can be a risky business and I am not here to support it nor defend it since I to do not practice it. Homosexuality, and it's acceptance is the issue here. We cannot just state that because homosexuality involves anal sex albeit because homosexuality only practice anal sex.
My original statement was that there were severe medical and islamic consequences to homosexuality. You challenged me to substantiate my claim (the medical aspect I assumed), therefore I proved my claim based on the fact that homosexuality involves anal sex, a very dangerous practice with severe medical consequences. Therefore, my claim that homosexuality has severe medical consequences was 100% true. Your only counter-argument was that anal sex is not practiced only by homosexuals. Of course that's beside the point. I don't care about the harmful consequences of other types of illnesses, I was only dealing with homosexuality.
The fallacy of your argument is akin to the following argument:
if I were arguing that car A is a poor and terrible vehicle, then you respond for proof of car A's low quality. I respond by pointing out its motor problems. You counter by saying that car B also has those problems!
What difference does it make if car B has the same problems?! If car A has the problems then my claim is proven!
Similarly, my claim that homosexuality has severe medical consequences, is also proven.
I hope it is clearer now.
An individuals right has to be taken into account, without taking a standpoint that homosexuals are in anyway a product of the West or have a mental/physical ailment.
An ailment/illness/disorder is a condition which causes the body or mind to operate abnormally. Since Islam views hetrosexuality as the norm, homosexuality is justifiably considered an illness or ailment.
But even if its an ailment that doesn't mean that such a person loses their rights! They are still loved but they are also helped and treated to aid them in coping with their affliction.
I think this argument has been effectively wrapped up. If you have any new information to contribute you are free to do so, but I hope you will not continue to argue just for the sake of argument.
Peace
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
A muslim who is a homosexual and still acknowledges that it is haraam is not a kaafir. He will only be reconigzed as a kaafir if he argues that it is halaal and allowed in Islaam.
Of course, when did Islam ever say anything contrary to this? Are you going to debate with little kids, or are you going to see what the religion itself says? I have told you, on numerous occasions, to start using your brain to find the truth. Dont take anyone's word for it, go and see it for yourself. A homosexual has the same rights as everyone else. To be shunned or looked down upon, would go against the Islamic teachings. However, just as the US constitution is against anything that opposes its ideals, and as the UN resolution is against a voice against it, so too does Islam have something to say about homosexuality. It states, quite simply, that it is not a natural act, and therefore God has forbidden it to you. I dont see the problem. No one is saying burn them, or throw them into a pit of snakes.
Thanks for your comments, but your "advice" only leads to the suspicion that all is not as clear as you like us to think. Firstly, I wonder if you could explain since you appear very tolerent of homosexuality why the majority of Islamic countries have a terrible record of oppression against homosexuality to the point that they use the tolerent West for a voice to be heard:
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Why, are Muslim homosexuals seeking asylum because they are gay and face persacution or death if they return to their country of origin (islamic majority countries)
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Gay men and lesbians live in frightening closets in this ancient land once known as Persia. A theocracy, ever since fundamentalist religionists seized government control following a 1979 uprising against the autocratic Shah, primitive "religious" death penalties for same-sex love are now used to strike terror into Iran's fragmented gay communities. Those charged with love-making are given a choice of four deathstyles: being hanged, stoned, halved by a sword, or dropped from the highest perch.
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Since you know more on the subject of Islam than me. I wonder if you could "Educate" me into understanding your perspective with the following in that Prophet Muhammad is reported to have said (in the Hadith or 'Sayings') the following:
"If you come across men doing as Lut's people did (the prophet Lot from the Old Testament, in Sodom and Gomorrah) kill the one who's doing it, and kill the one it's being done to"
"You should kill homosexuals wherever you find them."
"Homosexuals should be thrown off the tops of high buildings or cliffs"
I wonder if this is why homosexuals are offered to be thrown off from the highest perch in Iran? is their a link!
"You should drive them (effeminate men or masculine women) from your homes and families."
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Above 4 quotes not by any member of this forum.........
We are stating, quite clearly and quite firmly, that it is an unnatural act. Proof? See how many animal homosexual cases you can dig up. See what Mother Nature has to say about it.
Fair enough, what does Mother Nature say on the matter:
Well, the answer to that is that your presumption on mother nature is wrong, Homosexual behavior is not only common, but even more common in other species than in humans. While numbers are hard to come by, there are a few that present some interesting patterns. In ostriches, male homosexuality is much more common than bisexuality, but among mule deer, bisexuality is more common than homosexuality. Among our closest living relatives, the bonobo chimpanzees, few if any are either exclusively heterosexual or homosexual. Indeed, all that have been observed are exclusively permanently bisexual.
450 different species have been observed to have clear homosexual activity.
Source: source: Bruce Bahemihl, Ph.D., Biological Exhuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity, St. Martin's Press, 2000, page 35
If you are not here to read and understand the explanations, then i am afraid you are wasting more than just your own time my friend.
I am here to read & to understand, but not just to blindly understand.
[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Without prejudice
Root
MODERATOR'S COMMENT: LINKS REMOVED. REFER TO FORUM RULES #7, 9, 13, AND 19.
Last edited by Ansar Al-'Adl; 07-28-2005 at 11:08 PM.
peace Root,
Please post the references for the alleged sayings of the Prophet Muhammad saws.
As you have introduced nothing in response to my latest post, I feel my conclusion stands, and hence there is no need to respond to your last post.
---. Why have you removed my links? Why have you removed my references & then asked me to provide them. You have removed the following links:
1. First hand accounts of oppression & violence towards gay muslims in Muslim majority countries.
2. Same as 1 but another source. (Queer Jihad)
3. Independent links (news source) for Muslims seeking and winning appeals against deportation because they are Muslim & Gay, thus being in danger if deported back to country of origin....
I am very angry you have censored by posts..........
MODERATOR'S COMMENT: PLEASE, NO PROFANITY.
Last edited by Ansar Al-'Adl; 07-30-2005 at 11:55 PM.
A muslim who is a homosexual and still acknowledges that it is haraam is not a kaafir. He will only be reconigzed as a kaafir if he argues that it is halaal and allowed in Islaam.
Why have you removed my links? Why have you removed my references & then asked me to provide them.
Hi root,
I removed the links because of the forum rules I already listed in the same post. Your point is basically that gays who are allegedly muslims are suffering, but I don't see the relevance of this point to my arguments on the harmful nature of homosexuality.
I can understand your anger, but I hope you will be patient and cooperate with us.
Peace.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
well I feel that Gays are people who need to be loved more than most. I say that beecause so many people want to hate them, and very little want to help them. don't change the way you talk to him because you can't change him. don't not hug him because of who he is that will only hurt you and the long run. what I'm trying to say is love him becuz he is still your brother.
Hi root,
I removed the links because of the forum rules I already listed in the same post. Your point is basically that gays who are allegedly muslims are suffering, but I don't see the relevance of this point to my arguments on the harmful nature of homosexuality.
I can understand your anger, but I hope you will be patient and cooperate with us.
Peace.
the Natudre is harmful not them. I had two gay friends who once was musilm and I love them the same no matter what Ican't change them only one can do that so I just feel as like they are still my brother and sister. all I can do is try to let them know what they do is wrong but I will never Kill or stop talking to them.
Asalamu Alaykum
I agree with Nakisai that we shouldn't try to kill nor avoid any Muslim. Tell them it's wrong and whatever they decide it is between him and his Lord on the Great Day.
“This sin, the impact of which makes one’s skin crawl, which words cannot describe, is evidence of perverted instincts, total collapse of shame and honor, and extreme filthiness of character and soul… The heavens, the Earth and the mountains tremble from the impact of this sin. The angels shudder as they anticipate the punishment of Allah to descend upon the people who commit this indescribable sin.” (1)
“We also (sent) Lut: he said to his people: “Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.” And his people gave no answer but this: they said, “drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!” But We saved him and his family, except his wife: she was of those who lagged behind. And We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!” (5)
nicely put. i think that the alfatiha group really need to think hard about their ideology they have bout islam. they jus cherry pick what they think suits them and the other parts they just ignore. i personally think that its disgusting. (sorry to put it like that but it is).
these people have no understanding of islam,if they did then they would stop and repent. as for others that aint muslim, and do this, its unbelivable, that they actually advertise it, by doing 'gay festival', allowing gay marriages,and to such a point where gay couples are actually allowed to adopt children. its disgusting because its passing a wrong message.
You find out your friend is gay, do you hate them?
I found out a classmate of mine's was lesbian... She's muslim and wears hijab, but its a shame she's fallen into such sin... I hate her by nature and after finding out she was, I hated her even more...
Remember dear Brothers and Sisters of Islam, Lut's ('AlyheeSalaam) wife was left behind and destroyed along with the rest of the disobedient people because she accepted their actions. Their actions as we know it were homosexual, they were gays. Lut ('AlyheeSalaam) was disgusted with them, as we should be disgusted with them.
Their actions are like a disease. Such actions are beyond normal. One would need complete corruption in the heart and soul to commit such a disgusting thing. On the other hand a few people are born with both male and female organs and then it is up to the doctors to see what gender they fall closer too. This is not their fault in this case as it is a medical condition.
We then have those disgusting people who want to be gay or lesbian. Such people should not have a place in society.
If we accept their actions, we will end up like the wife of Lut ('AlyheeSalaam).
Like someone said, hate the action. As for the person himself/herself, it would depend on their nature. I personally find homosexuality sickening, but a lot of gay people are apparently really nice. So it would depend on the person...Also, at the University I used to attend, there's a young Muslim lady who's apparently a lesbian. You wouldn't know she was Muslim until she told you, but she's recently taken to saying things like, "I'm Muslim and I'm gay", probably because she see's nothing wrong with it. May Allah forgive her and all like her and, indeed, all of us, Inshaallah. Take care, all.
"I'm Muslim and I'm gay", probably because she see's nothing wrong with it. May Allah forgive her and all like her and, indeed, all of us, Inshaallah. Take care, all.
Anyone who dies a gay or lesbian dies in the complete state of Kufr. There is no forgiveness whoever dies in such a state. We must remember the actions of Luts ('AlyheeSalaam) wife who was destroyed because she did not care and accepted such actions.
The person who says she is lesbian and Muslim is fully not acceptable in Islam. It is vital that someone speaks to her urgently as such sin is completely unacceptable in the eyes of Allah.
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The Islamic standpoint is 'hate the action, not the person'. I mean, I hate the act of smoking, but that doesn't mean I go out and beat smokers to within an inch of their life. Similarly, I don't discriminate them (though I might ask them to put out their cigarette when they're in my house), so in that sense I accept them.
continued...homosexuality..
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