What is the proof of the Coming of the Mahdi and the Decension of Isa?

Salam sister,

Now that is going too far. Anyhow, if you don't want to believe in mahdi and Isa (p) it is not a bigee. Return of Jesus (p) will be a very big event, and most muslims, christians, and jews will come to believe in him when this will take place.

But sufficient is the verse "And he (i.e. Jesus) shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (i.e. Day of Resurrection). Therefore have no doubt concerning it. And follow Me (i.e. Allah)! This is the Straight Path."

The verse speaks in future tense; I don't think any doubt can remain after this.

Actually brother that is one of several interpretations of this verse.

In opinions attributed to Ibn ‘Abbas, Mujahid, ‘Ikramah, Qatadah, Suddi, Dahhak, Abu al-‘Aliah and Abu Malik this is understood to refer to Jesus’ return before the Hour as its sign: he is a means for the knowledge for the Hour in the sense that upon his return people will know that the Hour is surely coming. To support this interpretation some have read ‘alam (sign) instead of ‘ilm (knowledge). A related shi‘ah interpretation, also held by some sunnis under shi‘ah influence is that the verse refers to the coming of al-Mahdi, who may or may not be identified with Jesus.

Hasan Basari and Sa‘id bin Jubayr take hu (which could mean “he” or “it”) to refer to the Qur`an. That is: the Qur`an is the source of knowledge for the Hour.


See the most cited verse to validate this belief..is not clear..as people in the past have differed on its interpretation. In my eyes it cannot be presented as definitive proof.


As to Imam Mahdi..im almost certain its a belief taken from Twelver Shias. Iraq at the time was the place for this fake hadeeth business..hadeeths were fabricated in favour of Ali , in favour of Muawiya etc, even some ignorant sufis fabricated hadeeths to make people more religious..for them the end justified the means.

So, if people differed on its interpretation, what's the problem again?

format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah

What is wrong with believing Prophet Isa (A.S) died naturally like all humans in another place?

Because it is false. The Prophet Muhamamd pbuh told us that 'Isa will return. There is no valid reason for you to reject the authentic teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

Allah mentions other Prophets being raised up..not to heaven but raising them to high stations.

If you consult the tafsir you will see that Idris was 'raised up' to heaven as well, where his soul was taken by the angel of death.

This verse doesnt have 1 set interpretation..Why does this scholar make it seem as if theres a consensus on the interpretation of this verse?..i have the salafi translation and they give two interpretation. One as stated above and the other is below.

Irrespective of how you interpret an individual verse there is a unanimous consensus amongst the Muslim scholars concerning the descent of 'Isa as it is established in so many authentic mutawâti ahâtîth. There is no basis for someone to deny it.

Also the reports concerning the interpretation of the verse you quoted are not all of strong authenticity. It is amazing that you reject the MOST AUTHENTIC narrations which unanimously affirm the descent of Isa, but then you substantiate your claim by quoting narrations of arguable authenticity concerning the opinions of the sahaba!!

Also if Prophet Isa (A.S) is alive currrently in heaven..where is he? with whom? and doesnt Zakah and Salah obligatory for him if He is alive?

He is alive but is no longer in the life of Ad-Dunya, which is what the verse is referring to. He is alive and with Allah. This is confirmed in the most authentic ahadith.

Why do people have a problem with this translation? Again there is no consensus on this as evidenced below.

I already showed you what the correct meaning is but you ignored the answer:

Answered by Sheikh Khâlid al-Sayf

The word “tawaffâ”

The word “tawaffâ” essentially means for something “to arrive at its fulfillment”, like the period of time being fulfilled of a person’s months and days on Earth. The word is also used to mean “to take or receive in full” like in “tawaffaytu al-mâl” meaning “I received the money in full. Actually, these two meanings are very close to each other.

The word “tawaffâ” does not mean “to die” except in the presence of a contextual indicator that shows that this meaning is intended. It may be used to mean death or other things, but this is something understood from the context in which the word is being used.

In Arabic, there are three usages in which the word “tawaffâ” is used:

The first is “sleep”. Allah says: “Allah takes (yatwaff&#226 the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 42]

Here the word “tawaffâ” refers to the taking the souls from their voluntary actions during sleep and withholding fully the rational faculties and discretion until the person wakes up.

The second is “death”. This is in the context of a person’s time coming to an end. Here, the soul is taken without the body, so that Allah takes over full possession of the soul. Allah says: “until, when death comes unto one of you, Our messengers receive him (tawaffathu) , and they neglect not.” [Sûrah al-An`âm: 61]

As for the body, there is no reference to it being taken or received. It remains on the Earth and is covered by the soil.

The third is the taking of the body and soul together. This is what happened with Christ (peace be upon him). In this way, he ceased to be in the state of the people of Earth who need food, drink, clothing, and rest. His state is not like that of the denizens of the Earth in such matters.

Here we have the meaning of “tawaffâ” in the verse: “Behold! Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take you (mutawaffîka) and raise you to Myself” [Sûrâh Âl `Imrân: 55] It means that Allah will take him and raise him up from the Earth without death. There are two possible, equally valid understandings of this:

1. Allah is saying: “I am raising you up wholly so that they will not beset you with anything.”

2. Allah is saying: “I am receiving you.”

Nowhere does Allah ever mention in the Qur’ân that Christ died or was killed. If Allah had wanted to inform us that Jesus (peace be upon him) had died, he would have said: “They did not kill him nor did they crucify him. Instead he died.” This is not what is being said in the Qur’ân. If Allah had intended death when he says “tawaffâ” that would make Christ (peace be upon him) no different than the rest of the people in that their souls are taken up. If Christ’s soul had left his body, his body would have remained on Earth like the bodies of the rest of the Prophets. This is why Allah says: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158] in order to make it clear that the raising up took place upon both the soul and the body.

This is attested to by all the authentic hadîth regarding the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him) at the end of time in body and soul. These hadîth are many and they are well-known. They have reached us with so many lines of transmission so as to be mutawâtir.

Jesus’ return is also attested to by Allah’s words: “And there is none of the People of the Scripture but will certainly believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ: 159]

This verse refers to his death after returning at the end of time. This is why the verb “will certainly believe” comes a promise that is indicative of the future tense.

Then we have the hadîth where the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “By Him in Whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) will descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses, kill swine and abolish Jizya and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it.” [ (2222) and Sahîh Muslim (155)]

In summary, the term “tawaffâ” in Arabic does not in itself apply to the spirit to the exclusion of the body, or necessarily to both together, nor to sleep – except by way of the context in which it is used. This is the case for many Arabic words.

The word “raf`”

The word “raf`” essentially means “to place”. It can be used for physical objects or for abstract concepts. With respect o physical objects, its literal meaning is that of being moved to a higher position. And object can be raised. A plane or a wave can rise on its own.

With respect to abstract meanings, the term is understood according to the requirements of how it is being used. For example, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The pen is lifted from three, the child until he matures…” In this context, it refers to the absence of legal accountability. In another context, we say that a person experiences a raise in his social status, prestige, and nobility.

As for the meaning of “raf`” in the verse: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158], this refers to being raised in a physical, spatial sense. This is because when the word is used in connection with physical bodies, it is meant literally to mean movement to a higher position in space. This is what occurred with Christ (peace be upon him).

The understanding of actual movement through space is further supported by the fact that the verb is followed by prepositional phrase “ilayhi” (to Himself).

In summary, the term “raf`” as used in the verse is on its literal meaning that Jesus (peace be upon him) was raised up in both body and spirit, since the term is used literally in this way when referring to physical bodies. It is not to be understood metaphorically.

وروى علي بن أبي طلحة عن ابن عباس متوفيك أي مميتك

Ali Bin Abi Talhah has reported that Ibn Abbas said: Mutawaffika connotes Mumayyituka (I am going to give you death)

You ignore the most authentic chains of narration but substantiate your argument with the weakest! Can there be any worse fallacy? There are numerous AUTHENTIC ahadith reported ON THE AUTHORITY OF IBN ABBAS concerning the descent of Jesus, so will you deny these in favor of fabricated quotations?

I also find it repugnant that you just PLAGIARISE this material from different sources and paste it as though it is your own. You copied the above from Tariq Hashimi's Renaissance article.

So the message in the Qur'an is very clear.Prophet Isa was like all other Prophets.

In that he is a mortal and is not divine. Neither of which negates his second coming which is established beyond a shadow of a doubt in hundreds of authentic ahadith. You don't have a single valid reason to deny it.

Dr. Ahmad Shafaat isnt also one but he is for the reviving of hadeeth criticism

Ahmad Shafaat has absolutely no qualifications in the sciences of ahadith. He is not 'reviving' them; we already had great hadith scholars of this century like Shaykh Ahmad Shakir, Shaykh Al-Albani, Shaykh Abdul-Muhsin Al-Abbad, and so on. It is high time that we go to the scholars for knowledge and not the unqualified ignoramus, just as we go to the Medical Physicians for treatment and not some guy at a corner stand.

Conclusive proof that Jesus (a.s) died a natural death is furnished by the verse Q5:117. Allah is said to remonstrate with Jesus (a.s) and enquires if he taught his followers: "Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah" (Q5:116)? Jesus (a.s) is made to say: "I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me: serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die (i.e. after my death) Thou hast been the Watcher over them and Thou art witness over all things" (Q5:117). The following facts are revealed by this verse: (i) As long as Jesus (a.s) was alive, he kept a careful watch on those who followed him; (ii) but he did not know how they behaved after his death; (iii) the followers of Jesus (a.s) have gone astray.

The classic fallacy known as petitio principii. M. A. Malek - who you have plagiarised from as opposed to articulating your own arguments, which is a direct violation of our forum rules - has assumed what he has yet to prove. He translated tawaffa as 'die' and has extrapolated from the verse accordingly to prove...that Jesus died. The verse gives no support to the notion that he never came to know of their deviation after him, he merely affirms that it was Allah swt who saw how they took his pristine creed and corrupted it.

As to Imam Mahdi..im almost certain its a belief taken from Twelver Shias. Iraq at the time was the place for this fake hadeeth business..hadeeths were fabricated in favour of Ali , in favour of Muawiya etc, even some ignorant sufis fabricated hadeeths to make people more religious..for them the end justified the means.

I already showed this claim has absolutely no academic value or scholarly basis. As Shaykh Yasir Qadhi points out in his in-depth analysis on this topic, it betrays the utter paucity of the claimant's knowledge of hadith sciences. There are absolutely no shias in the chain of narration for the authentic ahadith. Fabricated ahadith do exist, and many were fabricated with devious intent, but the fabricated ahadith have been seperated from the authentically transmitted ahadith through a rigorous procedure. If you are ignorant of that procedure then how can you possibly hope to pass judgement on a subject you are ignorant of? Educate yourself first, please.

why would i be an unbeliever?

I believe in God

in His final Prophet.

No your belief in the prophet is incomplete because you reject the authentically transmitted teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh with absolutely no reason to do so. As for why these concepts do not come in the Qur'an, I already answered that but you ignored my response. They are prophecies not articles of faith. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh prophecized many things, big and small, they don't all appear in the Qur'an because the Qur'an is for individual guidance.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

Because it is false. The Prophet Muhamamd pbuh told us that 'Isa will return. There is no valid reason for you to reject the authentic teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh.
If you consult the tafsir you will see that Idris was 'raised up' to heaven as well, where his soul was taken by the angel of death.
Irrespective of how you interpret an individual verse there is a unanimous consensus amongst the Muslim scholars concerning the descent of 'Isa as it is established in so many authentic mutawâti ahâtîth. There is no basis for someone to deny it.

Also the reports concerning the interpretation of the verse you quoted are not all of strong authenticity. It is amazing that you reject the MOST AUTHENTIC narrations which unanimously affirm the descent of Isa, but then you substantiate your claim by quoting narrations of arguable authenticity concerning the opinions of the sahaba!!

He is alive but is no longer in the life of Ad-Dunya, which is what the verse is referring to. He is alive and with Allah. This is confirmed in the most authentic ahadith.

I already showed you what the correct meaning is but you ignored the answer:

Answered by Sheikh Khâlid al-Sayf

The word “tawaffâ”

The word “tawaffâ” essentially means for something “to arrive at its fulfillment”, like the period of time being fulfilled of a person’s months and days on Earth. The word is also used to mean “to take or receive in full” like in “tawaffaytu al-mâl” meaning “I received the money in full. Actually, these two meanings are very close to each other.

The word “tawaffâ” does not mean “to die” except in the presence of a contextual indicator that shows that this meaning is intended. It may be used to mean death or other things, but this is something understood from the context in which the word is being used.

In Arabic, there are three usages in which the word “tawaffâ” is used:

The first is “sleep”. Allah says: “Allah takes (yatwaff&#226 the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 42]

Here the word “tawaffâ” refers to the taking the souls from their voluntary actions during sleep and withholding fully the rational faculties and discretion until the person wakes up.

The second is “death”. This is in the context of a person’s time coming to an end. Here, the soul is taken without the body, so that Allah takes over full possession of the soul. Allah says: “until, when death comes unto one of you, Our messengers receive him (tawaffathu) , and they neglect not.” [Sûrah al-An`âm: 61]

As for the body, there is no reference to it being taken or received. It remains on the Earth and is covered by the soil.

The third is the taking of the body and soul together. This is what happened with Christ (peace be upon him). In this way, he ceased to be in the state of the people of Earth who need food, drink, clothing, and rest. His state is not like that of the denizens of the Earth in such matters.

Here we have the meaning of “tawaffâ” in the verse: “Behold! Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take you (mutawaffîka) and raise you to Myself” [Sûrâh Âl `Imrân: 55] It means that Allah will take him and raise him up from the Earth without death. There are two possible, equally valid understandings of this:

1. Allah is saying: “I am raising you up wholly so that they will not beset you with anything.”

2. Allah is saying: “I am receiving you.”

Nowhere does Allah ever mention in the Qur’ân that Christ died or was killed. If Allah had wanted to inform us that Jesus (peace be upon him) had died, he would have said: “They did not kill him nor did they crucify him. Instead he died.” This is not what is being said in the Qur’ân. If Allah had intended death when he says “tawaffâ” that would make Christ (peace be upon him) no different than the rest of the people in that their souls are taken up. If Christ’s soul had left his body, his body would have remained on Earth like the bodies of the rest of the Prophets. This is why Allah says: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158] in order to make it clear that the raising up took place upon both the soul and the body.

This is attested to by all the authentic hadîth regarding the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him) at the end of time in body and soul. These hadîth are many and they are well-known. They have reached us with so many lines of transmission so as to be mutawâtir.

Jesus’ return is also attested to by Allah’s words: “And there is none of the People of the Scripture but will certainly believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ: 159]

This verse refers to his death after returning at the end of time. This is why the verb “will certainly believe” comes a promise that is indicative of the future tense.

Then we have the hadîth where the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “By Him in Whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) will descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses, kill swine and abolish Jizya and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it.” [ (2222) and Sahîh Muslim (155)]

In summary, the term “tawaffâ” in Arabic does not in itself apply to the spirit to the exclusion of the body, or necessarily to both together, nor to sleep – except by way of the context in which it is used. This is the case for many Arabic words.

The word “raf`”

The word “raf`” essentially means “to place”. It can be used for physical objects or for abstract concepts. With respect o physical objects, its literal meaning is that of being moved to a higher position. And object can be raised. A plane or a wave can rise on its own.

With respect to abstract meanings, the term is understood according to the requirements of how it is being used. For example, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The pen is lifted from three, the child until he matures…” In this context, it refers to the absence of legal accountability. In another context, we say that a person experiences a raise in his social status, prestige, and nobility.

As for the meaning of “raf`” in the verse: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158], this refers to being raised in a physical, spatial sense. This is because when the word is used in connection with physical bodies, it is meant literally to mean movement to a higher position in space. This is what occurred with Christ (peace be upon him).

The understanding of actual movement through space is further supported by the fact that the verb is followed by prepositional phrase “ilayhi” (to Himself).

In summary, the term “raf`” as used in the verse is on its literal meaning that Jesus (peace be upon him) was raised up in both body and spirit, since the term is used literally in this way when referring to physical bodies. It is not to be understood metaphorically.

You ignore the most authentic chains of narration but substantiate your argument with the weakest! Can there be any worse fallacy? There are numerous AUTHENTIC ahadith reported ON THE AUTHORITY OF IBN ABBAS concerning the descent of Jesus, so will you deny these in favor of fabricated quotations?

I also find it repugnant that you just PLAGIARISE this material from different sources and paste it as though it is your own. You copied the above from Tariq Hashimi's Renaissance article.

In that he is a mortal and is not divine. Neither of which negates his second coming which is established beyond a shadow of a doubt in hundreds of authentic ahadith. You don't have a single valid reason to deny it.
Ahmad Shafaat has absolutely no qualifications in the sciences of ahadith. He is not 'reviving' them; we already had great hadith scholars of this century like Shaykh Ahmad Shakir, Shaykh Al-Albani, Shaykh Abdul-Muhsin Al-Abbad, and so on. It is high time that we go to the scholars for knowledge and not the unqualified ignoramus, just as we go to the Medical Physicians for treatment and not some guy at a corner stand.
The classic fallacy known as petitio principii. M. A. Malek - who you have plagiarised from as opposed to articulating your own arguments, which is a direct violation of our forum rules - has assumed what he has yet to prove. He translated tawaffa as 'die' and has extrapolated from the verse accordingly to prove...that Jesus died. The verse gives no support to the notion that he never came to know of their deviation after him, he merely affirms that it was Allah swt who saw how they took his pristine creed and corrupted it.
I already showed this claim has absolutely no academic value or scholarly basis. As Shaykh Yasir Qadhi points out in his in-depth analysis on this topic, it betrays the utter paucity of the claimant's knowledge of hadith sciences. There are absolutely no shias in the chain of narration for the authentic ahadith. Fabricated ahadith do exist, and many were fabricated with devious intent, but the fabricated ahadith have been seperated from the authentically transmitted ahadith through a rigorous procedure. If you are ignorant of that procedure then how can you possibly hope to pass judgement on a subject you are ignorant of? Educate yourself first, please.
No your belief in the prophet is incomplete because you reject the authentically transmitted teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh with absolutely no reason to do so. As for why these concepts do not come in the Qur'an, I already answered that but you ignored my response. They are prophecies not articles of faith. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh prophecized many things, big and small, they don't all appear in the Qur'an because the Qur'an is for individual guidance.

i was going to post M.A malek's entire article but much of his argument..ie Prophet Isa (A.S) ordered to pray and pay zakah till hes alive is also discussed in his article..

I have never taken credit for it..and I'm sure if i posted the entire article you would have deleted it just like my other threads and posts.

About Ibn Abbas saying mumeetuka means 'cause you to die' the arabic and the translation was taken from the renaissance site (i dont have an arabic keyboard)

i think this is really irrational of you to say my belief in Prophet Muhammed is incomplete. I don't think it is..just to let you know many of the salaf have said such things like Prophet Isa (A.S) is dead including Prophet Muhammed (saw) himself and this is recorded in Bukhari...When i find the hadeeths ill post it Inshallah.

Also may i add NO not all fabricated ahadeeths have been identified..there are fabricated hadeeths in bukhari, and other hadeeth books after all such people are humans..and humans err...No matter how hard people try to make the hdeeth books authentic they will not succeed to make it 100% authentic.

format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah

i was going to post M.A malek's entire article but much of his argument..ie Prophet Isa (A.S) ordered to pray and pay zakah till hes alive is also discussed in his article..

You are not going to copy-paste from other sources, especially inauthentic material. You will have to articulate the arguments yourself.

About Ibn Abbas saying mumeetuka means 'cause you to die' the arabic and the translation was taken from the renaissance site (i dont have an arabic keyboard)

Yes, and I have shown why it is fallacious to substantiate your argument with quotes of dubious authenticity while rejecting 100s of quotes of unanimously accepted authenticity.

i think this is really irrational of you to say my belief in Prophet Muhammed is incomplete. I don't think it is..

Whether you think so or not will not change reality. If you deny the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, your belief in him is incomplete. So far you have yet to provide even a single reason to reject the hadith on the descent of 'Isa pbuh.

just to let you know many of the salaf have said such things like Prophet Isa (A.S) is dead including Prophet Muhammed (saw) himself and this is recorded in Bukhari...When i find the hadeeths ill post it Inshallah.

This is blatantly false. I am going to take you up on this claim. I challenge you to post even one hadith in Sahih Bukhari where the Prophet Muhammad pbuh said 'Isa is dead.

We shall see if you can answer the challenge in your next post.

Also may i add NO not all fabricated ahadeeths have been identified..there are fabricated hadeeths in bukhari

There is not a single fabricated hadith in Sahih Bukhari. The Muhaditheen are unanimous about this, irrespective of whether an ignoramus without any education in Usool Al-Hadith thinks otherwise.

and other hadeeth books after all such people are humans..and humans err...No matter how hard people try to make the hdeeth books authentic they will not succeed to make it 100% authentic.

The hadith classifcation is bot based on the efforts of one scholar only. Their efforts were based on the efforts of thousands of scholars before them and were confirmed by millions after them. It is inconceivable that they would all agree on an error so blatant as classifying a fabricated hadith as Saheeh, as you claim!

Moreover, your argument is a red-herring as well since Allah swt preserved and transmitted the Qur'an through human beings as well. The bottom line is that error only occurs if Allah wills it.

Sorry for the late reply i have been very busy moving and stuff.

I'm not looking for any fight..the former Sheikh of Al Azhar Shaykh Mahmood Shaltut even questioned this belief..Mohammed Abduh, Muhammed Al Ghazali , even Shaykh Ahmad Deedat etc..these are just some of the comtemporary scholars and there are other classical scholars who have also said that Prophet Isa (A.S) died..InshaAllah ill be posting all the relevant information..

Also about the hadeeth..im saw hadeeths in Bukhari were the Prophet spoke of Prophet Isa as if he had died...again i will post it once i settle down and stuff so inshaAllah bear with me.

But you still did not answer the Brother's question! Why do you make Salah the way you do, when it is not mentioned in the Qu'ran?

I wrote.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

This is blatantly false. I am going to take you up on this claim. I challenge you to post even one hadith in Sahih Bukhari where the Prophet Muhammad pbuh said 'Isa is dead.

We shall see if you can answer the challenge in your next post.

Clearly you have't posted any hadith whatsoever in your last post, you only repeated the same erroneous claim! So far you've only failed the challenge. Let's try again - please do not begin your next post with anything other than the hadith. Hadith-rejectors love making wild claims and then running when people take them up on them.

format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah

again i will post it once i settle down and stuff so inshaAllah bear with me.

So far you haven't answered any of my points, arguments or challenges, so I'll be waiting, inshaa'Allah.

format_quote Originally Posted by blackjubba

But you still did not answer the Brother's question! Why do you make Salah the way you do, when it is not mentioned in the Qu'ran?

I answered it..i don't deny the importance of hadeeth..but its not independant..for instance the hadeeths should not speak of things that are not already there in the Qur'an..Salah is mentioned in the Qur'an and the step by step instructions are detailed in the hadeeths..however music being haraam is not mentioned in the Qur'an yet many muslims speak of it as if its haraam just like gambling and pork and alcohol and these people always say its haraam because of this or that hadeeth..same with stoning to death of adulterers, killing of apostates, Prophet Isa coming back, Imam Mahdi all these are not to be found in the Qur'an etc etc.

Next time please take the time to read my replies before jumping to conclusions that i reject hadeeths.

its not a Qadiyani belief only brother..many more muslims are rejecting this belief...if i were to agree with brother Ansar that 'tawaffa' means what many scholars say it is then where are the verses that speak of Prophet Isa coming back?? I've shown from my previous replies how the one verse people use as the 'definetive' proof isnt even agreed upon! by the scholars themselves! so basically what these people are sayng is..the Qur'an didnt inform us of all the story regarding one of the greatest Prophets that ever lived

format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah

for instance the hadeeths should not speak of things that are not already there in the Qur'an..

What gives you the right, and the "scholor" Dr. Ahmad Shafaat,who has not even a slight knowledge of Hadith to say what the Hadiths should or should not say? Your are putting your opinions in what the Hadiths should or should not say. You have no right to do so. The scholors, for the past 1400 years have established hadiths and some people come today who believe that all that work was worthless are not only displaying their ignorance, they are showing that they want the Hadiths and the Islamic Sources to be in accordance with their desires. You and they are walking down a very dangerous road.

Salah is mentioned in the Qur'an and the step by step instructions are detailed in the hadeeths..however music being haraam is not mentioned in the Qur'an yet many muslims speak of it as if its haraam just like gambling and pork and alcohol and these people always say its haraam because of this or that hadeeth..same with stoning to death of adulterers, killing of apostates, Prophet Isa coming back, Imam Mahdi all these are not to be found in the Qur'an etc etc.

Forbiddence of Music has already been established in the Quran and furthermore in the Hadiths.

Next time please take the time to read my replies before jumping to conclusions that i reject hadeeths.

You are rejecting Hadiths, by taking what you feel you want to take and rejecting those that do not go with your desires. You have yet to provide us ONE hadith in Bukhari where the Messenger of Allah said that Isa a.s. is dead.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ähmed

The scholors, for the past 1400 years have established hadiths and some people come today who believe that all that work was worthless are not only displaying their ignorance, they are showing that they want the Hadiths and the Islamic Sources to be in accordance with their desires. You and they are walking down a very dangerous road.

Brother i want hadeeths to be in total accordance and harmony with the QUR'AN..not MY DESIRES..is that too much to ask?? is this the 'dangerous road' you're talking about? I'm baffled!!

Do you believe the scholars are superhuman? because you and others speak of them as if they are..they are human..and humans err..they havent weeded out all the nonsense that exists in the hadeeth books..theres still much work to be done.

Forbiddence of Music has already been established in the Quran and furthermore in the Hadiths.

It is not mentioned in the Qur'an..show me a single verse where Allah says Guitars and other string instruments are haraam? there have been some people who have interpretated one verse of the Qur'an to mean music..the verse doesnt talk about musical instruments ..it talks about the the vain idle talks..that can be in many music t.v programmes, and even you can pick up your telephone handset and you can be guilty of 'vain idle talk' .

You are rejecting Hadiths, by taking what you feel you want to take and rejecting those that do not go with your desires. You have yet to provide us ONE hadith in Bukhari where the Messenger of Allah said that Isa a.s. is dead.

Again the word ' YOUR DESIRES' is striking..i want the hadeeths to be in accordance with the Qur'an..the two should not conflict if the Qur'an says the adulterers and fornicators should be lashed 100 times then thats it..and the Prophet would never go against the Qur'an...lastly but not least i only desire what Allah desires for us...i believe in submitting to His Will totally since he is the All Merciful who knows whats good for us.


I don't want a debate..lets not turn this into one..i just wanted to discuss and have a mature dialogue about this but it seems some people thing this is a debate and a competition..I'm going to discuss the sayings of the ulema of the past regarding Isa being dead inshaAllah in my next reply and I'll also give the hadeeths in Bukhari..im just busy and replying to you from my friends house..but I'll be back InshAllah you all take care

This is a wonderful dialog, don't take it out of hand or start name-calling, provide both proofs in a good manner. Even though I don't agree with ScentsofJannah... she is entitled to her opinion, and hopefully with dialogging we will all come to the correct and most knowledge-based conclusion.

Here are some Proofs on Imam Mahdi's return:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left (before the day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person from my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny (by then)."

References:

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v2, p86, v9, pp 74-75
Sunan Abu Dawud, v2, p7
Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,376; V3, p63
al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn, by al-Hakim, v4, p557
Jami' al-Saghir, by al-Suyuti, pp 2,160
al-Urful Wardi, by al-Suyuti, p2
al-Majma', by al-Tabarani, p217
Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v9, p144
Fat'h al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by Ibn Hajar Asqalani, v7, p305
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249
al-Tathkirah, by al-Qurtubi, p617
al-Hawi, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 165-166
Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, by al-Zurqani, v5, p348
Fat'h al-Mugheeth, by al-Sakhawi, v3, p41
Kanz al-Ummal, v7 P186
Iqd al-Durar Fi Akhbar al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, v12, Ch. 1,
al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman, By Ganji al-Shafi'i, Ch. 12
al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki, Ch. 12
Arjahul Matalib, by Ubaidallah Hindi al-Hanafi, p380
Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldoon, p266
and also in the works of Ibn Habban, Abu Nua'ym, Ibn Asakir, etc.


The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatimah (the Prophet's daughter).

References:

Sunan Abu Dawud, English version, Ch. 36, Tradition #4271 (narrated by Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet)
Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4086
al-Nisa'i and al-Bayhaqi, and others as quoted in:
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249


The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The Mahdi will appear in my Ummah. He will appear for a minimum of 7 or a maximum of 9 years; at that time, my Ummah will experience a bountiful favor like never before. It shall have a great abundance of food, of which it need not save anything, and the wealth at that time is in great quantities, such that if a man asks the Mahdi to give him some, and the Mahdi (AS) will say: Here! Take!"

Reference:

Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #5083



The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "We (I and my family) are members of a household that Allah (SWT) has chosen for them the life of the Hereafter over the life of this world; and the members of my household (Ahlul-Bayt) shall suffer a great affliction and they shall be forcefully expelled from their homes after my death; then there will come people from the East carrying black flags, and they will ask for some good to be given to them, but they shall be refused service; as such, they will wage war and emerge victorious, and will be offered that which they desired in the first place, but they will refuse to accept it till they pass it to a man from my family (Ahlul-Bayt) appears to fill the Earth with justice as it has been filled with corruption. So whoever reaches that (time) ought to come to them even if crawling on the ice/snow since among them is the Vice-regent of Allah (Khalifatullah) al-Mahdi."

References:

Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4082,
The History Tabari
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, pp 250-251


In Sahih Muslim, in the Chapter of al-Fitan, there are some interesting traditions on what will happen in the last days of the world. I would like to quote two of them here:

Abu Nadra reported: We were with the company of Jabir Ibn Abdillah... Jabir Ibn Abdillah kept quite for a while and then reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: "There would be a Caliph in the last (period) of my Ummah who would freely give handfuls of wealth to the people without counting it." I said to Abu Nadra and Abu al-Ala: Do you mean Umar Ibn Abd al-Aziz? They said: NO, (he would be Imam Mahdi).

References:

Sahih Muslim, English version, v4, chapter MCCV, p1508, Tradition #6961
Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Fitan, v4, p2234, Tradition #67

[ NOTE: What are inside the parentheses in the above tradition are NOT my comments. They are the words of the translator of Sahih Muslim (Abdul Hamid Siddiqui).]

Similarly, we read in Sahih Muslim:

Abu Sa'id and Jabir Ibn Abdullah reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: "There would be in the last (phase) of the time a Caliph who would distribute wealth but would not count."

References:

Sahih Muslim, English version, v4, chapter MCCV, p1508, Tradition #6964
Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Fitan, v4, p2235, Tradition #69

More???

Ibn Majah in his Sunan quotes Muhammad Ibn Hanafiyyah and Imam Ali saying that the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) said:

"al-Mahdi is from our Ahlul-Bayt, no doubt Allah will enforce his appearance within a night (i.e., his coming is very unpredictable and is very sudden)."

References:

Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, p269
Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, as quoted in:
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p250

Ibn Hajar wrote that:

Muqatil Ibn Sulayman and those who followed him among the (Sunni) commentators of Quran said that the verse: "And he shall be a Sign for (the coming of) the Hour" (Quran 43:61) was revealed about al-Mahdi.

Reference:
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, p247

It is narrated in Sahih Muslim that:

Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari (RA) said: I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: "A group of my Ummah will fight for the truth until near the day of judgment when Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the leader of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus declines, saying: "No, Verily, among you Allah has made leaders for others and He has bestowed his bounty upon them."

Reference:

Sahih Muslim, Arabic, part 2, p193
Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, pp 45,384
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p251
Nuzool Isa Ibn Maryam Akhir al-Zaman, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p57
Musnad, by Abu Ya'ala which provides another version of the tradition with more clear words on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah said: "A group among my Ummah will continue to fight for the truth until Jesus, the son of Marry, will descend, and the Imam of them will ask him to lead the prayer, but Jesus replies: "You have more right to it, and verily Allah has honored some of you over others in this Ummah."
Sahih Ibn Habban, whose tradition reads: "their leader al-Mahdi" and the rest of tradition is the same.

In Sahih al-Bukhari, it is narrated that:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "What would be your situation if the Son of Marry (i.e. Jesus) descends upon you and your Imam is among you?"
Sunni reference:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English, v4, Tradition #658

Shaikh Ahmad Muhammad Shakir (d. 1377/1958), one of the greatest contemporary scholar of Hadith and Tafsir, whose major work was his commentary on Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (for a biography of Ahmad Shakir, see al-Aalam, v1, p253; Mu'jam al-Mu'allifeen, v13, p368) wrote in his commentary: "Belief in al-Mahdi is not particular to the Shia because it is from the narration of many companions of the Prophet in such way that NO one can cast doubt the truth (of this belief)." After this, he proceeds to a strong refutation of Ibn Khaldoon's weakening the traditions regarding al-Mahdi. (see Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal with commentary of Ahmad Muhammad Shakir, Pub. by Dar al-Ma'arif, Egypt, v5, pp 196-198, v14, p288).

Al-Sayid Sabiq, the Mufti for the "Muslim Brotherhood," in his book, "al- 'Aqa'id al-Islamiyyah," that: "The idea about the Mahdi is indeed valid, and is one of the Islamic tenets that one must believe in." Mr. Sabiq also narrated a variety of traditions relating to the appearance of al-Mahdi (AS) in the above book.

The recent Fatwa in this issue was given in Mecca by "The Muslim World League" (Rabitatul 'Alamil Islami) on Oct. 11, 1976 (23 Shawwal 1396). This Fatwa states that more than twenty companions narrated traditions concerning al-Mahdi, and gives a list of those scholars of Hadith who have transmitted these narrations, and those who have written books on al-Mahdi. The Fatwa states:

"The memorizers (Huffadh) and scholars of Hadith have verified that there are authentic (Sahih) and acceptable (Hasan) reports among the traditions related to al-Mahdi. The majority of these traditions are related through numerous authorities (Mutawatir). There is no doubt that the status of those reports are Sahih and Mutawatir. (They have also verified) that the belief in Mahdi is obligatory, and that it is one of the beliefs of Ahlussunnah wal Jama'a. Only those ignorant of the Sunnah and innovators in doctrine deny it.
For the transcription and reproduction of this Fatwa, see, among others, the Introduction of al-Ganji al-Shafi'i, in the book named "al-Bayan," Beirut, 1399/1979, pp 76-79 and in Appendix.


As far as we have been able to discover, at least 35 prominent Sunni scholars have written 46 of books EXCLUSIVELY about Imam al-Mahdi (AS), the leader of our time. Here are some of the name of some of these books:

(1) "Kitab al-Mahdi," by Abu Dawud.
(2) "Alamat al-Mahdi," by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti.
(3) "al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi Alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar," by Ibn Hajar.
(4) "Al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman," by Allamah Abu Abdillah Ibn Muhammad Yusuf al-Ganji al-Shafi'i.
(5) "Iqd al-Durar fi Akbar al-Imam al-Muntadhar," by Shaikh Jamaluddin Yusuf al-Damishqi.
(6) "Mahdi Aale Rasool," by Ali Ibn Sultan Muhammad al-Harawi al-Hanafi.
(7) "Manaqib al-Mahdi," by al-Hafidh Abu Nu'aym al-Isbahani.
(8) "Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir al-Zaman," by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi.
(9) "Arba'in Hadith fi al-Mahdi," by Abdul Ala al-Hamadani.
(10) "Akhbar al-Mahdi," by al-Hafidh Abu Nu'aym.



Thanks, hopefully the info i provided helped with this dialog,

Kidman

format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah

Brother i want hadeeths to be in total accordance and harmony with the QUR'AN..not MY DESIRES..is that too much to ask?? is this the 'dangerous road' you're talking about? I'm baffled!!

In accordance to the Quran? Are you too naive to see that it is according to the Quran? It is NOT contradicting to the Quran, therefore the opposite HAS to be true. It is in accordance with the Quran.

You are not able to see that. Your desires want the hadiths to be such and such, in accordance with such and such. They already are. But you doubt them, that is why you are coming up with these arguements and you have no basis to prove your point. You have yet to provide one hadeeth from Bukhari. Please do what brother Ansar said and start your next post with your hadith that will back up your claim, or please dont bother to post.

Do you believe the scholars are superhuman? because you and others speak of them as if they are..they are human..and humans err..they havent weeded out all the nonsense that exists in the hadeeth books..theres still much work to be done.

They are not superhuman, nor perfect. But the fact that there have been thousands and thousands of scholors who have said that the decension of Isa a.s is true and part of the Aqidah of a muslim makes it undeniable.

We dont need hadith criticism. We have the hadiths, those who think they are above following them because they find something in there that they dont understand, fail to comprehend so it becomes

a) Make it fit their desires.
b) This has to be false.

It is not mentioned in the Qur'an..show me a single verse where Allah says Guitars and other string instruments are haraam? there have been some people who have interpretated one verse of the Qur'an to mean music..the verse doesnt talk about musical instruments ..it talks about the the vain idle talks..that can be in many music t.v programmes, and even you can pick up your telephone handset and you can be guilty of 'vain idle talk' .

There are actaully three verses that indicate the prohibition of it. The Sahaba, the Tabieen and the 4 Imams, and many many other scholors are unanimous on the forbiddence of it. Please stick to the proper discussion.

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...an-sunnah.html

When will the time come when the Muslims will take what the Scholors have agreed upon for hundred of years and accept instead of trying to find ways around the rulings?

Again the word ' YOUR DESIRES' is striking..i want the hadeeths to be in accordance with the Qur'an..the two should not conflict if the Qur'an says the adulterers and fornicators should be lashed 100 times then thats it..and the Prophet would never go against the Qur'an...lastly but not least i only desire what Allah desires for us...i believe in submitting to His Will totally since he is the All Merciful who knows whats good for us.

Ofcourse he would not. But are you knowledgeable of all the hadiths on an issue out there from all the books compiled? Do you know all the hadiths pertaining to that matter? But tell me, are you knowledgeable enough to know the when, the where, and the how of what the Prophet said? Are you a scholor of hadith that has studied for years about this science? I very much doubt it. And Ahmad Shafat is not one either. Has has no knowledge in the science of Hadith. It is not his place to 'revive hadith criticism".

It is time you take what the scholors of the past have said and accept it. Perhaps you should read about them, and then youll understand that what they said was not of their own desires.

I don't want a debate..lets not turn this into one..i just wanted to discuss and have a mature dialogue about this but it seems some people thing this is a debate and a competition..I'm going to discuss the sayings of the ulema of the past regarding Isa being dead inshaAllah in my next reply and I'll also give the hadeeths in Bukhari..im just busy and replying to you from my friends house..but I'll be back InshAllah you all take care

Please do not start your next post without those quotes and the Hadiths. Its funny how someone today 1400 years later finds a a Hadith in Bukhari about Isa a.s being dead when the scholors for the past 1000 years have not. Perhaps they might have over looked it.

here are the ahadeeth and Qur'anic verses

It is reported by Ibn Abbas that the Prophet Muhammed said in a sermon.'O people! You will be gathered to your Lord (on the day of Judgment) ... and some people from my Umma will be taken and dragged towards hell. I shall say: ‘O Lord, but these are my people’. It will be replied: ‘You do not know what they did after you’. Then I shall say as did that righteous servant of God (i.e., Jesus) say: ‘I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when You did cause me to die You was the Watcher over them’ ..." ( Sahih Bukhari, Kitab al-Tafsir, under Surah Ma’idah)

Please look closely at what Prophet Isa (Jesus) pbuh said in the Qur'an

"And when God will say: ‘O Jesus, did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides God?’ He will reply: ‘Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right to say. If I had said it, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Your mind. Surely You are the great Knower of the unseen.
I only said unto them only that which You commanded me , ( saying ) : Worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord . I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them , and when You caused me to die You was the Watcher over them . You are Witness over all things (Surah Al Maidah 116-117)

The word tawaffa in the hadeeth and the Qur'an means death..this is its apparengt meaning..in many places in the Qur'an this word is used in its many forms and in each and every instance it is to do with death..so how can you say this ayah to the exclusion of the others means something else? God is the author of confusion?

Ibn Abbas said: mutawaffi-ka means ‘I will cause you to die (mumeetuka) ’.

(Bukhari, Kitab al-Tafsir, on verse 5:110).


"Had Moses or Jesus been alive, they would have had to follow me." (Tafeseer Ibn Kathir Surah Al Imran, 81)

Imam Bukhari reports that the Prophet (pbuh) said May the curse of God be upon the Jews and the Christians who made the graves of their prophets into places of worship."

"Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her) said that, in his illness in which he died, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) said: ‘Every year Jibreel (peace be upon him)used to repeat the Holy Quran with me once, but this year he has done it twice. He has informed me that there is no prophet but he lives half as long as the one who preceded him. And he has told me that Jesus lived a hundred and twenty years, and I see that I am about to leave this world at sixty’."

(Hujjaj al-Kiramah, p. 428; Kanz al-Ummal, vol. 6, p. 160, from Hazrat Fatima; and Mawahib al-Ladinya, vol. 1, p. 42)

"There is no one alive today but will be dead before a hundred years have passed over it." (Muslim, Kanz al-Ummal, vol. 7, p. 170)

Also we know the hadeeths about Prophet Muhammed seeing the past Prophets pbut in his night journey(mi'raaj) and this includes Prophet Isa...the dead and living live in the same place?!!

"And those whom they call on besides Allah created nothing, while they are themselves created. Dead (are they), not living. And they know not when they will be raised." (16:20-21)

The verse above is very important..its a fact many Christians worship Jesus ..ie Prophet Isa pbuh this verse is clear that all the humans worshipped as gods are dead and possess no knowledge of the unseen.This verse doesnt talk about idols fashioned by peoples hands.

Countless hadeeths of Prophet Muhammed pbuh and one explicit verse from the Qur'an inform us that there will be NO PROPHET after the death of Prophet Muhammed pbuh..so why exactly are we expecting another 'final prophet' to show up after 2000 years? a prophet that will come to 'kill all the pigs' in other words cruelly make them extinct and 'break the crosses'?..what ever happened to showing kindness to animals?

Prophet Isa pbuh also says that as long as hes alive hes been commanded by Allah to pray and help the poor..how is Prophet Isa pbuh perforiming these obligatory duties in heaven?

These are some of the questions we need to ask ourselves.

to brother Kidman..i don't believe in the coming back of Prophet Isa pbuh nor do i await any 'saviour' called Imam Al Mahdi simply because there is no mention about this in the Qur'an or the earliest hadeeth collections..

format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah

I answered it..i don't deny the importance of hadeeth..but its not independant..for instance the hadeeths should not speak of things that are not already there in the Qur'an..Salah is mentioned in the Qur'an and the step by step instructions are detailed in the hadeeths..

First of all, who are you to declare what the hadith (and by implication the Prophet Muhammad pbuh) should speak about and what he shouldn't speak about? Allah swt says:
4:65 But no, by your Lord (O Muhammad), they have no Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.
By necessity, if people refer EVERY SINGLE DISPUTE of theirs to the Prophet saws, then it means that the vast majority of these disputes are not discussed in the Qur'an, but in the ahâdîth where the Prophet's ruling on them is found. Consequently, the vast majority of such rulings would be additional to the material found in the Qur'an.

Secondly, I already answered about which issues the hadith detail that are not in the Qur'an. They detail practices and prophecies, NOT pillars of faith upon which the message of Islam and its theology is built. All this is found in the Qur'an.

Thirdly, Muslims all around the word celebrate the two Eids. It is common knowledge that these are the celebrations of Islam. Please show me where in the Qur'an the Eid celebrations are mentioned.

Fourthly, if you suggest that the hadith can be relied upon in some cases and not others, then how can you object to someone who interprets the Qur'an in a different manner and says that 'Salah' refers to any form of meditation and therefore Muslims do not need to perform the five daily prayers. How can you object to someone who says that the mention of the day of judgement is metaphorical as well as the prophets and books? Such a person would be disbelieving in the indisuputable fundamentals of Islam. And yet your whimsical pick-and-choose approach to hadith negates any objection on your part to such ideas. Don't you realize that extremists follow the exact same idea of yours, to pick some hadith and not others, and therefore bring harm to others?

however music being haraam is not mentioned in the Qur'an...

...According to your interpretation!! The problem is, how will you argue with someone who says that the five daily prayers are not mentioned in the Qur'an and that salah just means 'meditate'? You continue to reject the understanding of the Qur'an by the Ahâdîth and Âthâr and instead substitute it with your personal interpretation. The fallacy in such a methodology should be patently obvious when considering the extreme, far-fetched interpretations anyone can draw from the Qur'an if they are given license to interpret it as they desire.

Next time please take the time to read my replies before jumping to conclusions that i reject hadeeths.

Why don't YOU respond to my posts instead of continually evading the arguments, repeating your baseless assumptions, erroneous beliefs and self-refuting propositions? You only have repeated here what was already refuted and conveniently ignored the refutation, which betrays a lack of sincerity in one's commitment to the truth.

format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah

if i were to agree with brother Ansar that 'tawaffa' means what many scholars say it is then where are the verses that speak of Prophet Isa coming back??

Petitio principii - you have committed the fallacy of assuming what you have yet to prove. You already assume a meaning for the verses provided on Prophget 'Isa's return and then you complain that there are no such verses! What you must do is FIRST substantiate your interpretation of the verses, which you have continually failed to do.

Secondly, the details of the return of Prophet Jesus pbuh are found throughout the Ahadith in the most authentic compilations, transmitted mutawâtir. You have provided no basis for rejecting such narrations.

Thirdly, your above question argues by implication that in the absence of verses speaking on Prophet Jesus's return, the aforementioned interpretation of the tawaffâ is unwarranted. The sane reader is left with the glaringly manifest question - "WHY??" How in the world does that logically follow?!

I've shown from my previous replies how the one verse people use as the 'definetive' proof isnt even agreed upon! by the scholars themselves!

Actually, you've only spewed various wild claims, but when they are challenged you quickly shift ground, ignore, and repeat the same fallacious conclusions.

so basically what these people are sayng is..the Qur'an didnt inform us of all the story regarding one of the greatest Prophets that ever lived

Haven't read much of the Qur'an?
40:78 And indeed We have sent Messengers before you [O Muhammad], of some of them we have related to you their story; and of some We have NOT related to you their story.

The Qur'an testifies to the greatness of Prophets like Idris, Ilyas, Al-Yasa' and Dhul-Kifl - all of whom are mentioned BY NAME. And yet, their story is not mentioned in the Qur'an at all. I challenge you to provide me with their COMPLETE story from the Qur'an and without reference to Ahadith. If you cannot, you have refuted your OWN argument!!

Secondly, what about Prophet Muhammad saws?!? He is the GREATEST prophet and messenger, and yet a coherent and complete understanding of his life can only be obtained with reference to extra-qur'anic sources.

Thirdly, the reason why the full story of Prophet 'Isa pbuh's return is not mentioned (and I already have said this though you neglected my response) is because it is also a prophecy. It is part of the prophecies of Muhammad pbuh regarding the end times, in fact one of the Ashrât al-Kubrâ (major signs). The Qur'an is a book of guidance and thus contains the core elements of the Islamic message. Prophecies and practices are provided or elaborated in the Ahâdîth.

format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah

Brother i want hadeeths to be in total accordance and harmony with the QUR'AN..not MY DESIRES..is that too much to ask??

Yes because the statement reeks of fallacies. When you say you want the ahâdîth to be in total accordance with the Qur'an, BY DEFAULT you are speaking about the Qur'an as YOU [mis]understand and [mis]interpret it. You simply have not shown a single conflict between the ahâdîth and the Qur'an in this entire thread yet you continue to spout this baseless and fallacious notion. We call this fallacy argumentum ad nauseum.

Do you believe the scholars are superhuman? because you and others speak of them as if they are..they are human..and humans err..they havent weeded out all the nonsense that exists in the hadeeth books..theres still much work to be done.

Are you saying that millions (literally) of hadith scholars were so BLIND that even after 1 and a half millenia they still missed HUNDREDS of ahâdîth in the MOST RENOWNED compilations, which are supposedly in BLATANT contradiction with the Qur'an? Jokes go in the Halal Fun section please.

I'm ignoring your diversionary tactics on music and adultery, btw.

here are the ahadeeth and Qur'anic verses

I previously wrote:

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

This is blatantly false. I am going to take you up on this claim. I challenge you to post even one hadith in Sahih Bukhari where the Prophet Muhammad pbuh said 'Isa is dead.

We shall see if you can answer the challenge in your next post.

Let's see if you answered the challenge.

It is reported by Ibn Abbas that the Prophet Muhammed said in a sermon.'O people! You will be gathered to your Lord (on the day of Judgment) ... and some people from my Umma will be taken and dragged towards hell. I shall say: ‘O Lord, but these are my people’. It will be replied: ‘You do not know what they did after you’. Then I shall say as did that righteous servant of God (i.e., Jesus) say: ‘I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when You did cause me to die You was the Watcher over them’ ..." ( Sahih Bukhari, Kitab al-Tafsir, under Surah Ma’idah)

Fails to meet the challenge. This hadith talks about the Day of Judgement. Obviously Prophet Jesus pbuh is going to return and then pass away - you said that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh has said that Jesus has DIED.

The word tawaffa in the hadeeth and the Qur'an means death..this is its apparengt meaning..in many places in the Qur'an this word is used in its many forms and in each and every instance it is to do with death..

WRONG. I can give you a verse straight from the Qur'an that says otherwise:
“Allah takes (yatwaffâ) the souls at the time of their death, AND THOSE THAT DIE NOT DURING THEIR SLEEP; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 42]

Stop repeating blatantly false claims like this. Do I really have to RE-PASTE this article in the thread a FOURTH time?!

Answered by Sheikh Khâlid al-Sayf

The word “tawaffâ”

The word “tawaffâ” essentially means for something “to arrive at its fulfillment”, like the period of time being fulfilled of a person’s months and days on Earth. The word is also used to mean “to take or receive in full” like in “tawaffaytu al-mâl” meaning “I received the money in full. Actually, these two meanings are very close to each other.

The word “tawaffâ” does not mean “to die” except in the presence of a contextual indicator that shows that this meaning is intended. It may be used to mean death or other things, but this is something understood from the context in which the word is being used.

In Arabic, there are three usages in which the word “tawaffâ” is used:

The first is “sleep”. Allah says: “Allah takes (yatwaffâ) the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 42]

Here the word “tawaffâ” refers to the taking the souls from their voluntary actions during sleep and withholding fully the rational faculties and discretion until the person wakes up.

The second is “death”. This is in the context of a person’s time coming to an end. Here, the soul is taken without the body, so that Allah takes over full possession of the soul. Allah says: “until, when death comes unto one of you, Our messengers receive him (tawaffathu) , and they neglect not.” [Sûrah al-An`âm: 61]

As for the body, there is no reference to it being taken or received. It remains on the Earth and is covered by the soil.

The third is the taking of the body and soul together. This is what happened with Christ (peace be upon him). In this way, he ceased to be in the state of the people of Earth who need food, drink, clothing, and rest. His state is not like that of the denizens of the Earth in such matters.

Here we have the meaning of “tawaffâ” in the verse: “Behold! Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take you (mutawaffîka) and raise you to Myself” [Sûrâh Âl `Imrân: 55] It means that Allah will take him and raise him up from the Earth without death. There are two possible, equally valid understandings of this:

1. Allah is saying: “I am raising you up wholly so that they will not beset you with anything.”

2. Allah is saying: “I am receiving you.”

Nowhere does Allah ever mention in the Qur’ân that Christ died or was killed. If Allah had wanted to inform us that Jesus (peace be upon him) had died, he would have said: “They did not kill him nor did they crucify him. Instead he died.” This is not what is being said in the Qur’ân. If Allah had intended death when he says “tawaffâ” that would make Christ (peace be upon him) no different than the rest of the people in that their souls are taken up. If Christ’s soul had left his body, his body would have remained on Earth like the bodies of the rest of the Prophets. This is why Allah says: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158] in order to make it clear that the raising up took place upon both the soul and the body.

This is attested to by all the authentic hadîth regarding the descent of Jesus (peace be upon him) at the end of time in body and soul. These hadîth are many and they are well-known. They have reached us with so many lines of transmission so as to be mutawâtir.

Jesus’ return is also attested to by Allah’s words: “And there is none of the People of the Scripture but will certainly believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ: 159]

This verse refers to his death after returning at the end of time. This is why the verb “will certainly believe” comes a promise that is indicative of the future tense.

Then we have the hadîth where the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “By Him in Whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (peace be upon him) will descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses, kill swine and abolish Jizya and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it.” [ (2222) and Sahîh Muslim (155)]

In summary, the term “tawaffâ” in Arabic does not in itself apply to the spirit to the exclusion of the body, or necessarily to both together, nor to sleep – except by way of the context in which it is used. This is the case for many Arabic words.

The word “raf`”

The word “raf`” essentially means “to place”. It can be used for physical objects or for abstract concepts. With respect o physical objects, its literal meaning is that of being moved to a higher position. And object can be raised. A plane or a wave can rise on its own.

With respect to abstract meanings, the term is understood according to the requirements of how it is being used. For example, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The pen is lifted from three, the child until he matures…” In this context, it refers to the absence of legal accountability. In another context, we say that a person experiences a raise in his social status, prestige, and nobility.

As for the meaning of “raf`” in the verse: “Nay, Allah raised him up to Himself” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 158], this refers to being raised in a physical, spatial sense. This is because when the word is used in connection with physical bodies, it is meant literally to mean movement to a higher position in space. This is what occurred with Christ (peace be upon him).

The understanding of actual movement through space is further supported by the fact that the verb is followed by prepositional phrase “ilayhi” (to Himself).

In summary, the term “raf`” as used in the verse is on its literal meaning that Jesus (peace be upon him) was raised up in both body and spirit, since the term is used literally in this way when referring to physical bodies. It is not to be understood metaphorically.

"Had Moses or Jesus been alive, they would have had to follow me." (Tafeseer Ibn Kathir Surah Al Imran, 81)

pThat's the point! Prophet Jesus pbuh will return as a FOLLOWER of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. He will not come as a Prophet, and this will be demonstrated by the fact that he will pray behind Imam Mahdi.

Imam Bukhari reports that the Prophet (pbuh) said May the curse of God be upon the Jews and the Christians who made the graves of their prophets into places of worship."

The Christians believe in more Prophets than Jesus pbuh.

"Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her) said that, in his illness in which he died, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) said: ‘Every year Jibreel (peace be upon him)used to repeat the Holy Quran with me once, but this year he has done it twice. He has informed me that there is no prophet but he lives half as long as the one who preceded him. And he has told me that Jesus lived a hundred and twenty years, and I see that I am about to leave this world at sixty’."

(Hujjaj al-Kiramah, p. 428; Kanz al-Ummal, vol. 6, p. 160, from Hazrat Fatima; and Mawahib al-Ladinya, vol. 1, p. 42)

Again the fallacy that I already pointed out earlier in this thread. You ignore the hundreds of authentic narrations and then bring me the weakest and most dubious ones for your arguments! Kanz al-ummal has thousands of ahadith without any chain of narration. The authentic ahadith all say that Prophet Jesus pbuh will return.

Clearly the Ahmadiyyah site you plagiarised from needs to seriously re-think its material.

"There is no one alive today but will be dead before a hundred years have passed over it." (Muslim, Kanz al-Ummal, vol. 7, p. 170)

This is actually proof against Khidr living but not against Prophet Jesus pbuh because he is not living on this earth. He is with Allah swt.

Also we know the hadeeths about Prophet Muhammed seeing the past Prophets pbut in his night journey(mi'raaj) and this includes Prophet Isa...the dead and living live in the same place?!!

Absolutely.

"And those whom they call on besides Allah created nothing, while they are themselves created. Dead (are they), not living. And they know not when they will be raised." (16:20-21)

The verse above is very important..its a fact many Christians worship Jesus ..ie Prophet Isa pbuh this verse is clear that all the humans worshipped as gods are dead and possess no knowledge of the unseen.This verse doesnt talk about idols fashioned by peoples hands.

The Qur'an also says that the mushrikeen will go to hell alongside those whom they worshipped besides Allah swt (Qur'an 21:98). If you want to strip verses of their context and apply them absolutely then you are also forced to claim that Prophet 'Isa pbuh is destined for hell (Na'ûdhubillah!).

Countless hadeeths of Prophet Muhammed pbuh and one explicit verse from the Qur'an inform us that there will be NO PROPHET after the death of Prophet Muhammed pbuh..so why exactly are we expecting another 'final prophet' to show up after 2000 years?

He is not a final Prophet, he is penultimate in prophethood and Muhammad pbuh is the final Prophet. Prophet Jesus will return as a follower of Muhammad pbuh; the position of Prophethood is one that is granted and does not necessarily continue throughout one's entire life. If that were the case then why did Muhammad saws become a prophet at the age of 40?

a prophet that will come to 'kill all the pigs' in other words cruelly make them extinct and 'break the crosses'?..what ever happened to showing kindness to animals?

Muslims are also commanded to sacrifice animals in many occasions. Does that mean we are all cruel? Every day you eat animals that were killed before they arrived on your plate. This is frankly the meekest and most inane of your 'arguments'!

Prophet Isa pbuh also says that as long as hes alive hes been commanded by Allah to pray and help the poor..how is Prophet Isa pbuh perforiming these obligatory duties in heaven?

These duties he was commanded for were on earth; and he will continue to do this during his life on earth. Obviously if we take this absolutely as you intend then he should have been earning paying money to the poor while he was in the womb and cradle since he was alive then as well!

Once again a series of post devoid of any substance and completely failing to substantiate the wild claims made earlier. If you do not answer the challenge in your next post ( and this request is being repeated several time) then moderators are instructed to delete your posts as you are openly rejecting dialogue, copy-pasting previously debunked material and defying requests to adhere to forum guidelines.