Did the Prophet(saw) say this..?

format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck

It takes the issue of worshiping a person too lightly.

For example:

It is related that 'Abdullah was said to say, "The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, made a distribution and a man said, 'By Allah, this a distribution by which the face of Allah is not desired.' I went to inform the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace!' He became angry so that I could see the anger in his face. Then he said, 'May Allah have mercy on Musa! He was abused more than this and he was patient.'"
(Sahih Bukhari 3224)

Ok the prophet (pbuh) got angry over the abuse to moses (pbuh) but he didn't get angry over borderline idolatry?

Where does this say that the Prophet, peace be upon him, got angry over the abuse of Musa??

Read it properly!

..a man said, 'By Allah, this a distribution by which the face of Allah is not desired.'

This is why he was angry, because someone accused him of not doing it for the sake of Allah!!

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis

, SubhanAllah that's true. But not all men read other teachings. They just pick and choose what suits them. If only the Quran was read as much as Bukhari, at least even then men would be aware of women's rights.

You know sister, to be honest with you, any decent man would know not to upset or bully or put hardships on anyone, I wasn't muslim but I have always wanted to treat my wife in a good way, I mean its a normal decent thing, someone who is in your care, your wife, someone who wants to be cared about, how could anyone mistreat such a person, I mean even with wife beating and all the other stuff, in alot of cases men don't need the Qu'ran to know that they shouldn't beat their wifes because she didn't cook dinner or any stupid stuff like that, men know that their wife is a human and feels humiliated and ashamed if they are bullied, any decent guy would know that, but alot of guys who do treat women bad, they would turn a blind eye to prohibitions in alot of cases even if they read it again and again.

,

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar

The careful one is not the one who recklessly assumes that he has enough knowledge to overturn the intensive ingestigations of over a millenia of Islamic scholars of hadith, and just declare sahih hadith fabricated if they don't make sense to him. The careful one is rather the one who reads the hadith and then has the humility to refrain from passing a judgement and to consult the scholars to understand the explanation and the interpretation and the context of the hadith.

Be careful is not a matter of assuming more knowledge than scholars or passing judgments. It is a matter of being careful from potential risks.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar

If you just reject things haphazardly on a superficial reading, then your methods would have caused you to reject many ayaat of the Qur'an! But just like the Qur'an when you don't understand an issue you investigate the matter deeper and consult the people of knowledge, you have to do the same with the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Having doubts and being careful doesn't equal rejection. Comparison with Quran is not correct because, Quran is transmitted, compiled, and protected by infallible and al powerful God and through infallible channel; on the other hand, hadiths, in general, were transmitted and collected by fallible channels and people.

format_quote Originally Posted by Dhulqarnaeen

Yaa akhee, tawadhu, who are we saying we can do research about this hadith or that hadith doubtfull or not Masha Allah, do U feel qualified enough to doubt hadith which included sahih by ulama ahli hadith? Wallahu yahdik. Its not that easy to say this hadith doubtful or that hadith 50% doubtfull, where do U know? Do U have the capability to do this? Do U have the knowledge? Have you learned mustalah Al Hadith? Do U know siwak / the typical sign of words from Rasulullah which its been said that Rasulullah always say short words but full of meaning.
Do U know Arabic language that good till you can doubt a hadith? Do U feel wise enough that you can doubt the truth in hadith Rasulullah? We are nothing akhee, and we leave one bussiness to the expert, especially when we talk about Islam, then we may not talk if we have no prove form Quran and hadith. And also our explanation may not contradict the explanation of our whole ulama salaf. You gotta learn how to be waro'....I think we all have to learn more.

I don't feel qualified enough, but a layman has to assess at some point if he/she has to make decision or follow works of scholars. Allah has given me intelligence and if was the person to take things on face value than I had not been muslim today.

Where does this say that the Prophet, peace be upon him, got angry over the abuse of Musa??

Read it properly!

..a man said, 'By Allah, this a distribution by which the face of Allah is not desired.'
This is why he was angry, because someone accused him of not doing it for the sake of Allah!!

I stand corrected.

Having doubts and being careful doesn't equal rejection. Comparison with Quran is not correct because, Quran is transmitted, compiled, and protected by infallible and al powerful God and through infallible channel; on the other hand, hadiths, in general, were transmitted and collected by fallible channels and people.

And what was Allah's method in preserving His Book?

format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck

Be careful is not a matter of assuming more knowledge than scholars or passing judgments. It is a matter of being careful from potential risks.

How can you properly assess any risks when you jump to questioning the authenticity of the hadith every time it doesn't make sense to you? What you should be doing instead is consulting the books of scholars and you would be amazed to see how the explanations reconcile the contradictions you imagined in the hadith. To see a classic example of this, read the explanation I provided for the hadith of the she-monkey which is often raised as a so-called case of absurdity in hadith literature:
http://www.islamicboard.com/217237-post84.html

Brother, believe me, I have already seen ALL of the hadiths raised by anti-islamists and hadith-rejectors to throw doubt on the authenticity of the hadith compilations and confuse new muslim reverts into adopting this rejectionist mentality, but alhamdulilah, through consulting with scholarly sources I have seen that not a single one of these allegations is unanswered. Every single one has been effectively debunked and all doubts quashed. I know that the knee-jerk reaction of new muslims and uneducated muslims alike is to immediately fall back to questioning the hadith's authenticity when they are presented with an allegation, because that is the most convenient argument and the mind wants a fast and easy way to resolve doubt. The mind does not like to be in a troubled state, so rather than waiting for a scholarly explanation, it jumps to rejecting the matter altogether, which is the wrong decision. As Imam Ibn Taymiyyah said when you are presented with allegations you should not allow all these doubts to penetrate your heart, but instead you should examine them as though there is some glass barrier between you and them, protecting you from their harm and providing you the opportunity to take an objective perspective.

Having doubts and being careful doesn't equal rejection.

What you are doing does equal rejecting in many cases, and it is a rejection that is unfounded and unnecessary, and I know since I have spent an enormous amont of time debating anti-islamists from all different backgrounds and refuting allegations based on certain ahadith.

Comparison with Quran is not correct because, Quran is transmitted, compiled, and protected by infallible and al powerful God and through infallible channel; on the other hand, hadiths, in general, were transmitted and collected by fallible channels and people.

Brother, we have answered all these statements and more in the thread linked earlier on hadith rejection. The very same people who preserved the Qur'an preserved the hadith. The very same people who compiled the Qur'an, compiled the hadith. The very same people who transmitted the Qur'an, transmitted the hadith. The fact that the Qur'an can only be fully implemented and understood with recourse to the Sunnah, necessitates that Allah's promise of protection extends to the Sunnah as well.

Since we are just repeating things already mentioned in the hadith-rejection thread, if you intend to post on this subject again, you must first read through the thread because virtually every claim has already been answered:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...tml#post331417

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis

Alhumdulillah, there are men who are decent enough to know how to treat their wives and not just because religion says so. But I'll explain what I mean.

Even decent men can abuse their wives rights. Not because they don't know that religion disallows it, but because their culture allows it. A decent man might not beat his wife for not cooking dinner but he will still regard her as an unfit wife. But he will feel insulted that his wife hadn't shown him enough respect by making his dinner when she knew he'd be home to eat it. He may be decent in many ways but he won't refrain from giving her slap in the face if she raised her voice to him.


I speak of the cultural beliefs of a large number of people in Pakistan. Men's right are stressed over and over and passed on from generation to generation by elders. Even by women themselves. because that is what they have been taught.

And as our relgious leaders are men, they pick out the hadith and verses that confirm men's rights, but conceal women's rights. You know why? Because giving women their rights would clash with their culture. A culture in which they like to keep women oppressed. These hadith are never questioned -people follow blindly. The majority of people don't even know about woman's right to inheritance, or the right's of a wife e.g. maintenance etc..

That's what I mean that instead of following hadith, (which many have not even read themselves, but heard through others) if people were to read and understand the Quran, there'd learn the whole truth. And not just what has been picked for them to hear.

When it comes to rights of inheritance and authority over a wife, even the most decent men will abuse a woman's rights. There are people who think the son is the sole inheritor of wealth - again because hadith of women's rights are concealed or not given enough importance and because it fits in with their culture. To give a daughter a share means her in-laws will get it. So that right is denied for cultural reasons.

By reading the Quran themselves, men won't fall into any misconception. There's no danger of hearing only what others have wanted them to hear. Cultural beliefs will be questioned and I doubt any man will beat his wife or abuse her rights, if understands the Quran.

As a new muslim, probably raised in the west, I don't expect you to have much knowledge of muslims who've mixed culture with religion. But the truth is bro that in places like that most men are only decent as long as they hold all the power. And in their own words, imaams are the most corrupt people in society.

Oh, well I wasn't including cultural muslim withing the 'decent men' bracket, personally if a person choses culture over islam I dont see how he or she can be decent. But this whole cooking and inheritance thing, I dont know, I mean most people, I know, non-Muslims, would be more ok with things like this, this is what I meant by decent men, the people you have described sound terrible, and yes I have come across stories like those. I don't know, I need to be more patient, but it does make my blood boil.