Stoning to Death and its effect on me

^ Regarding that video: Wasn't her uncles and family not Muslim or something? They were some ol' skool religion type people...not Muslim right? There was a thread on this...and the video had nothing to do with Islaam.

Allaahu A'lam.

format_quote Originally Posted by jzcasejz

^ Regarding that video: Wasn't her uncles and family not Muslim or something? They were some ol' skool religion type people...not Muslim right? There was a thread on this...and the video had nothing to do with Islaam.

Allaahu A'lam.

That does not explain the chants of "Allah-u-Akbar" and nor does it explain the many many aHadith related in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim about the Prophet's recommendation of stoning to death as capital punishment for crimes of adultery.

Asalaamu 'alykum (peace be upon you.) brother nydweller


First of all, to clarify the position about that girl being stoned to death - i think you may have misunderstood. The article was on a non muslim girl becoming muslim, and she wanted to marry a muslim guy, and because her family were against it - they stoned her to death. These people followed an ancient religion of the Iraqi's. And Allaah knows best.

format_quote Originally Posted by Article

Aswad, a member of a minority Kurdish religious group called Yezidi, was condemned to death as an “honour killing” by other men in her family and hardline religious leaders because of her relationship with the Sunni Muslim boy.

They said she had shamed herself and her family when she failed to return home one night. Some reports suggested she had converted to Islam to be closer to her boyfriend.

Aswad had taken shelter in the house of a Yezidi tribal leader in Bashika, a predominantly Kurdish town near the northern capital, Mosul.

Iraqi girl's stoning shown on Internet




This is a response to the issue of stoning however (by brother Ansar), since we know that the ruling is authentic. The issue of stoning the face/head etc. isn't permitted either. Anyway, heres the article:

The punishment of stoning is the hadd punishment for the married adulterer, which essentially entails that it functions exclusively as a deterrent. Here's why. To apply this punishment you need four witnesses to the actual act of penetration who observed it from four different angles and if there is even the slightest contradiction in the most minute details of their testimony, they are punished with eighty lashes for false accusation of adultery. Thus, the implementation of the hadd punishment for zina is a practical impossibility. As the fatwâ committee under the supervision of Shaykh 'Abdul-Wahâb At-Turaryrî notes:

It is not enough for four people to show up at court and give testimony. The witnesses and their backgrounds have to be carefully scrutinized by the courts to determine their trustworthiness and honesty. They have to be able to demonstrate that they saw the crime. It is not easy to explain how one was able to witness such an act without being guilty of any wrongdoing oneself. The witnesses have to see actual sexual penetration. This is not an easy thing to explain.

If the condition of four witnesses of determined trustworthiness is not fulfilled, each of those who accused the person of adultery is given 80 lashes with a whip as the punishment for bearing false witness.

Allah says: “And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 4]

The punishments for fornication and adultery are designed more to protect society from the open practice of licentious sexual behavior than they are designed to punish people.

It is nearly impossible to get a conviction for adultery except in a case where it is carried out in public for all eyes to see. With this threat of severe punishment, people will keep their evil deeds concealed and society as a whole will be protected.

It is worth noting that in the 1400 years of Islamic history, these stringent conditions have never been met even once. And due to the deterrent effect, sexual immorality is suffocated and eradicated in an Islamic society.

In spite of all this, if the impossibility became reality and the punishment were to be carried out, then how would it be done? For the person who is convicted of such a heinous licentious act they would be placed in a pit and pelted to death while covered by a cloth so that their 'awrah is not exposed. If it is by confession and not conviction, they would have the opportunity to retract their confession at any point in time and so they would not be placed in a pit. No one is allowed to curse the person who undergoes this or express pleasure.

For the reasons outlined above, it is evident that whatever movie you have seen could by no stretch of the imagination be construed as Islamic, as this punishment is a practical impossibility and even then would never occur in the manner described.



http://www.islamicboard.com/591159-post9.html

thank you brother for that detailed answer to my somewhat troublesome dilemma. do you think you could post links or actual text of aHadith backing up the need for four witnesses for four angles, and all the other details which you have mentioned?

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Just out of curiousity bro, you know Muslims arent the only people who say Allahu Akbar, theres a Christian lady I know that uses MashaAllah, Wallahi, ALhamdulillah and so forth.

Also, bro, do you think a religion can be wrong because it does not comply with our moral standards?

In my humble opinion, we cannot know that a religion is "right" or "wrong" until we are faced with whatever it is that waits for us in the afterlife. But it is up to us to use the intelligence and awareness we have been given to ask these questions and learn through such inquisitions. Moral standards are one thing, but brutal murder is another. I don't have the right to say what is right and wrong, but the best I can do is figure out for myself what I want to relate with.

The verse about the 4 witnesses is mentioned in the article:


Allah says: “And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 4]


And the amazing part is that according to Islamic law, only the adulterer who is married should get the punishment. Therefore - what happened to them youth, if they weren't ever married before - then the ruling would be more relaxed. And Allaah knows best.


Also, brother Ansar (who writ that article) said the following:

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl

I know that for the person who confesses they are not put in a pit and are allowed to retract their confession at any time and escape the punishment. But not someone who is actually convicted by four witnesses in public, and we have never had such a case in all of islamic history.

And Allah knows best.

http://www.islamicboard.com/592099-post28.html

but where can i read about four witnesses and four angles and all the minute details having to match up?

I'd also like to ask what then, is the meaning of the verses from Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim in which the Prophet recommends the stoning of a person to death, and the once that I posted a link to in which the relater of the Hadith actually claims to have participated in the stoning of a person to death?

format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

The verse about the 4 witnesses is mentioned in the article:


Allah says: “And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 4]


And the amazing part is that according to Islamic law, only the adulterer who is married should get the punishment. Therefore - what happened to them youth, if they weren't ever married before - then the ruling would be more relaxed. And Allaah knows best.


Also, brother Ansar (who writ that article) said the following:




http://www.islamicboard.com/592099-post28.html

format_quote Originally Posted by nydweller

but where can i read about four witnesses and four angles and all the minute details having to match up?

The 4 witnesses have to actually see the act of intercourse take place:

The fuqaha’ (may Allaah have mercy on them) stated that the basic act of zinaa which carries the punishment is illegal sexual intercourse, whereby the two “circumcised parts” [i.e. genitals] come together and there is penetration of the tip of the penis, because this is actual penetration (which carries the prescribed hadd or punishment).

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=3013&ln=eng&txt=

Do you really think that these people in the video saw that occur? Infact, did it even occur?

Even if we were to forget the actual video, do you really think that there would be 4 witnesses in the same room when this action is occuring? And they see it clearly with their own eyes? (penetration of the tip of the penis, because this is actual penetration)


If they never saw any of this occur, even if it was 3 witnesses and there wasn't a 4th, they would be lashed 80 lashes each for accusing them of zina. Even if they see the couple in the same bed, but they don't see the actual penetration occur - they can't testify.


The only way this could truelly have 4 witnesses is if the people who commited that act did so publically out of showing off. We as muslims know that the act of fornication occurs, it even occured in peoples homes at the time of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.) However, Islaam tries to stop the evil from becoming public and widespread. This way there is less corruption and less people incline towards it - out of fear of punishment, aswell as fear of being exposed.



And Allaah knows best.

Thank you. Also, just to clarify the video and the people in it are not the issue here for me. It is simply what got me to thinking and questioning, which is when I came here and posted.

format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

The 4 witnesses have to actually see the act of intercourse take place:

The fuqaha’ (may Allaah have mercy on them) stated that the basic act of zinaa which carries the punishment is illegal sexual intercourse, whereby the two “circumcised parts” [i.e. genitals] come together and there is penetration of the tip of the penis, because this is actual penetration (which carries the prescribed hadd or punishment).

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=3013&ln=eng&txt=

Do you really think that these people in the video saw that occur? Infact, did it even occur?

Even if we were to forget the actual video, do you really think that there would be 4 witnesses in the same room when this action is occuring? And they see it clearly with their own eyes? (penetration of the tip of the penis, because this is actual penetration)


If they never saw any of this occur, even if it was 3 witnesses and there wasn't a 4th, they would be lashed 80 lashes each for accusing them of zina. Even if they see the couple in the same bed, but they don't see the actual penetration occur - they can't testify.


The only way this could truelly have 4 witnesses is if the people who commited that act did so publically out of showing off. We as muslims know that the act of fornication occurs, it even occured in peoples homes at the time of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.) However, Islaam tries to stop the evil from becoming public and widespread. This way there is less corruption and less people incline towards it - out of fear of punishment, aswell as fear of being exposed.



And Allaah knows best.

format_quote Originally Posted by nydweller

I'd also like to ask what then, is the meaning of the verses from Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim in which the Prophet recommends the stoning of a person to death, and the once that I posted a link to in which the relater of the Hadith actually claims to have participated in the stoning of a person to death?

Again, the way a person can be stoned is;


1) If there are 4 trustworthy witnesses who testify to the fact that they saw the actual penetration occur.

2) The person him/herself testifies to their ownself. However, if there aren't 4 witnesses, and the person repents while keeping it between him/herself and Allaah, then Allaah is still willing to forgive them. That's why, if you read the hadith which you quoted - it was the same man which Allaah's Messenger turned away from 3 or 4 times. Then when he persisted and made his claim public, then he was stoned for that, and Allaah forgave him insha Allaah.

If someone repents or recieves the hadd prescribed punishment - they are forgiven for that crime in the hereafter. And Allaah knows best.

Thank you to everyone who replied.

Certainly some food for thought that I'll need to have my mind chew on for a while.


Wasalam.

Alhamdulillah if you ever have anymore questions, please do ask. Since the cure to ignorance is asking.

Jazaak Allaah khayr brother asad, is there any tafsir/explanation on that If you can find some, please do post it insha Allaah. About the pregnancy part.

I've also found this alhamdulillah.


On the subject of stoning, etc. please read this:

Fornication and Adultery

This is defined as any case where a man has coitus with a woman who is unlawful to him. Any relationship between a man and a woman that does not contain coitus does not fall under this category and does not mandate the prescribed, fixed punishment.

The prescribed punishment is different depending on the marital status of the perpetrator. A single person who has never been previously married receives one hundred lashes as stated by Allah:

The fornicatress and the fornicator, give each of them one hundred lashes.


If the person is married or has previously been married, then the punishment is stoning until death. This punishment has been established by a number of had?th of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

The following conditions must be met before either of these two punishments can be carried out:



1. Four trustworthy witnesses must give testimony that they have witnessed the act take place with absolute certainty. They must be in complete agreement about all the details of the act, and about its place, time, and circumstances. If their stories do not coincide, their testimony will be considered false. In this case, instead of the punishment for fornication being carried out on the accused, the prescribed punishment for bearing false witness will be carried out against the witnesses.

Allah says:

Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they did not produce witnesses, then with Allah they are the liars.

[Surah Nur 24: 13]


Those who accuse chaste women then do not come with four witnesses, flog them eighty lashes and never accept their testimony. They are the sinful ones.

[Qur'an 24:4]

It is obvious that the one who commits fornication in the plain sight of four witnesses whereby they can see every detail of his crime is a person who is flagrant in his behavior, who has little regard for religion or for social values, and if he is married, has little regard for his relationship with his wife.

This person fully deserves a severe punishment. At the same time, it must be known that there is no documented case in Muslim history to the extent of our knowledge where the prescribed punishment for fornication was carried out on the testimony of witnesses. In most cases, this punishment was carried out at the wish of the perpetrator in order that he may purify himself of the sin and as a means of repentance.


2. There must be no cause for doubt that can make the punishment fall away. If any doubt is present, or any way out is found for the accused, the punishment is not to be carried out, because Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: Do not carry out the prescribed punishments when there is doubt.

Some things should be made clear at this point. The first is that if a person becomes weak and falls into this sin, it is preferable for him to conceal it from others and not speak about it or admit to it. Instead, he should repent, seek Allah's forgiveness, and try to make up for it by doing righteous deeds. He should not despair of Allah's mercy.

This is because Allah's Messenger has said: Whoever comes with one of these filthy acts should conceal it as Allah has concealed it.

Allah says:

Those who, if they commit an indecency or wrong themselves, remember Allah and seek His forgiveness ? and whoever forgives save Allah? ? and do not persist in committing it, their reward is forgiveness from their Lord and gardens beneath which rivers flow.

O my servants who have transgressed against themselves, do not despair of Allah?s mercy. Verily, Allah forgives all sins.

It should also be observed that, likewise, if someone is to see another Muslim commit this act, then he should conceal it from the public. Allah's Messenger has said: Whoever conceals the fault of a Muslim, Allah will conceal his fault.

It must also be noted that Islam has made the home completely inviolable. It is not permissible to enter someone else?s home except with the permission of its occupants. Spying is likewise prohibited. Allah says:

O you who believe, do not enter homes other than your own until you have asked permission and greeted their inhabitants. This is better for you, in order that you may remember.

Also, if a person confesses to this sin of his own accord, it is necessary to determine if he is of sound mind and in possession of all of his faculties. It must also be certain that he is under no compulsion or coercion.

Beyond that, he is afforded the opportunity to retract his confession and he is encouraged to do so. If he retracts his statement, the prescribed punishment will not be carried out. This is what Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) did with M`iz when he confessed to committing adultery. Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) turned away from him many times while he repeatedly said: I have committed adultery, so purify me. Allah?s Messenger (peace be upon him) only turned his face away.

Then he said: Maybe you only kissed? and: Maybe you were drinking? In spite of this the man was insistent. Then, when the people were going to administer the punishment, he denied everything and fled. They informed Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) of this and he said: Why not leave him to repent so Allah can forgive him.



The wisdom behind the prescribed punishment for fornication and adultery:

If we look at all the punishments prescribed by Islamic Law, we see that they all have two inseparable qualities:

A. Excessive recourse to caution for the benefit of the accused and the large number of provisions that must be met before a punishment can be carried out.

B. The harshness and severity of the punishments.


This guarantees two things. First of all, it preserves the general security of society and reduces crime, due to the harshness of the punishments. The potential murderer who knows he will be killed, the potential thief who knows he will have his hand cut off, and the potential sexual offender who knows that he will be stoned or given a hundred lashes will think twice before going out and committing the crime. If, on the other hand, he knows that he will only be imprisoned for a few months or a few years, then he might not pay heed to the punishment and might not be discouraged from committing the crime.


Secondly, it safeguards the life of the accused and guarantees him that no punishment will be carried out until every excuse is exhausted and every reason for discarding the punishment is looked into.

If we look at fornication and adultery, we see that it is dealt with in this manner. The condition for establishing it four reliable witnesses is a very strict one, and the punishment is decisive.


If we look at the application of this punishment, we find many aspects of the wisdom behind it:

1. It preserves general peace and security, because one of the most important motives for murder is the violation of someone?s honor. Applying the punishment against fornication causes a decrease in one of the major causes of violating people?s honor, which in turn, reduces the frequency of murder. This has a direct, positive effect on public safety.

2. It protects the family. The family enjoys a special esteem in Islam. The widespread practice of extramarital sex is destructive to the family, undermines its integrity, and destabilizes the relationships between its members. The severe punishment for fornication and adultery has the effect of reducing its occurrence, which has a direct, positive effect on the family in two ways. Firstly, the family of the one who commits adultery share in the experience of his punishment, so they are discouraged from committing the act themselves, which brings stability to the family. Likewise, the family who had been harmed by the act of adultery benefits by the reduced opportunity for this crime afforded by this punishment, so its stability is increased.


http://www.islamicboard.com/25327-post17.html