I am a convert to Islam and I am finding it difficult with the idea that non-muslims will go to hell for eternity. Coming from a non-muslim background - all my family are not muslim - this is very difficult to accept. I can't imagine the people I love ending up in hell and not being in paradise. Most of my friends are also not muslim and are atheists, Christians and Hindus and are the most loveliest people you could imagine. I read that adults who have not heard the message, however, i.e. the testimony of faith, will not be held accountable. What if they hear about islam on the news and never hear the shahada or what if I talk to them about islam in general and just never mention that? Does anyone have any thoughts about this?
Whatever the reason, 'beautiful' definitely isn't a word I would use to describe it.
PEACE czgibson;
Islam - A World Of Peace And Love
Islam - A World Of Love And Peace
A world where people love to smile,
And send good wishes all the while.
A world where people offer peace,
And good words from them never cease.
A world where people do not hoard,
But give to those who can't afford.
A world where people help defend,
And heal the wounds and try to mend.
A world where people share a gift,
And help the pauper's spirit lift.
A world where people feel no pride,
But live together side by side.
A world where people purify,
And always on their Lord rely.
This world, we have it in our palm.
Dear people, It Is Al - Islam
This topic made me so angry ,who the hell told u that non muslims go to hell,No body goes to hell if they beleive in God and u do good things,evrybody has questions in their mind about God ,cuz no none has seen him,and a lot of people beleive in God in their own way,The only people that will go to hell are people who do bad things and who dont beleive in God at all.SO my friend dont worry about ur relatives as if they beleive in God then the heaven will be ready for them
God bless you
(Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam.) Allah states that there is no religion accepted with Him from any person, except Islam. Islam includes obeying all of the Messengers until Muhammad who finalized their commission, thus closing all paths to Allah except through Muhammad . Therefore, after Allah sent Muhammad , whoever meets Allah following a path other than Muhammad's, it will not be accepted of him. In another Ayah, Allah said,
(And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him) [3:85].
In this Ayah [3:19], Allah said, asserting that the only religion accepted with Him is Islam,
[إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِندَ اللَّهِ الإِسْلَـمُ]
(Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam.)
Allah then states that those who were given the Scripture beforehand divided in the religion after Allah sent the Messengers and revealed the Books to them providing them the necessary proofs to not do so. Allah said,
(Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except out of rivalry, after knowledge had come to them.) meaning, some of them wronged others. Therefore, they differed over the truth, out of envy, hatred and enmity for each other. This hatred made some of them defy those whom they hated even if they were correct. Allah then said,
[وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِآيَـتِ اللَّهِ]
(And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat of Allah) meaning, whoever rejects what Allah sent down in His Book,
[فَإِنَّ اللَّهِ سَرِيعُ الْحِسَابِ]
(then surely, Allah is Swift in reckoning.) Allah will punish him for his rejection, reckon him for his denial, and torment him for defying His Book. Thereafter, Allah said.
[فَإنْ حَآجُّوكَ]
(So if they dispute with you (Muhammad )) so if they argue with you about Tawhid,
(Say: "I have submitted myself to Allah (in Islam), and (so have) those who follow me'') meaning, Say, `I have made my worship sincere for Allah Alone without partners, rivals, offspring or companion,
[وَمَنِ اتَّبَعَنِ]
(and those who follow me) who followed my religion and embraced my creed.' In another Ayah, Allah said,
(Say (O Muhammad ): "This is my way; I invite unto Allah with sure knowledge, I and whosoever follows me...'') [12:108].
Islam is the Religion of Mankind and the Prophet Was Sent to all Mankind
Allah commanded His servant and Messenger, Muhammad , to call the People of the Two Scriptures and the unlettered idolators to his religion, way, Law and all that Allah sent him with. Allah said,
(And say to those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and to those who are illiterates (Arab pagans): "Do you (also) submit yourselves'' If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message.) meaning, their reckoning is with Allah and their return and final destination is to Him. It is He Who guides whom He wills and allows whom He wills to stray, and He has the perfect wisdom and the unequivocal proof for all of this. This is why Allah said,
[وَاللَّهُ بَصِيرٌ بِالْعِبَادِ]
(And Allah sees the servants.) for He has perfect knowledge of who deserves to be guided and who does not deserve to be guided. Verily,
(He cannot be questioned for what He does, while they will be questioned.) [21:23] because of His perfect wisdom and mercy. This and similar Ayat are clear proofs that the Message of Muhammad is universal to all creation, as it is well established in the religion, according to the various texts of the Book and Sunnah. For instance, Allah said,
(Blessed be He Who sent down the criterion to His servant that he may be a warner to the `Alamin (mankind and Jinn).) [25:1].
The Two Sahihs and other collections of Hadith recorded that the Prophet sent letters to the kings of the earth during his time and to different peoples, Arabs and non-Arabs, People of the Book and the unlettered, just as Allah had commanded him. `Abdur-Razzaq recorded that Ma`mar said, that Hammam said that Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet said,
(By He in Whose Hand is my soul! No member of this Ummah, no Jew or Christian, hears of me but dies without believing in what I was sent with, but will be among the people of the Fire.) Muslim recorded this Hadith.
(21. Verily, those who disbelieve in the Ayat of Allah and kill the Prophets without right, and kill those men who order just dealings, then announce to them a painful torment.) (22. They are those whose works will be lost in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.)
Listen man ,muslims preache in a very bad way ,u cant tell a non muslim that islam is the religion and thats it ,i try to preache people by saying beleive in one God only and do good things and thats a start ,when they do that u can tell them to read the Quran and see what they think as the Quran is full of science in it .people like u just give them Kuran Ayet s and expect them to beleive ,how do u know that bible is fake ? so again i take the responsibility in this BELEIVE IN ONE GOD ONLY ,THE GOD THAT CREATED EVRYTHING AND DO GOOD THINGS ,RESPECT UR WIFE ,HELP THE POOR AND U WILL GO TO HEAVEN
Listen man ,muslims preache in a very bad way ,u cant tell a non muslim that islam is the religion and thats it ,i try to preache people by saying beleive in one God only and do good things and thats a start ,when they do that u can tell them to read the Quran and see what they think as the Quran is full of science in it .people like u just give them Kuran Ayet s and expect them to beleive ,how do u know that bible is fake ? so again i take the responsibility in this BELEIVE IN ONE GOD ONLY ,THE GOD THAT CREATED EVRYTHING AND DO GOOD THINGS ,RESPECT UR WIFE ,HELP THE POOR AND U WILL GO TO HEAVEN
Your approach seems to be a much better one to me. Quoting from the bossier selections of scripture has always struck me as a very strange way to try and attract somebody to a religion.
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The people of Mecca asked Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle. So he showed them the moon split in two halves between which they saw the Hiram' mountain. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap021029.html
With regards to the question about Non-Muslims being sent to hell, Yasir Qadhi gives the answer from the orthodox position at 0:43:45 and 1:02:16 in the following video. Please do watch and listen to it.
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Last edited by Uthman; 11-03-2009 at 01:20 PM.
"I spent thirty years learning manners, and I spent twenty years learning knowledge."
With regards to the question about Non-Muslims being sent to hell, Yasir Qadhi answers this question from the orthodox position at 0:43:45 in the following video. Please do listen to it.
Horrifying. The man can barely conceal his hatred for non-Muslims. Does he count as an Islamic scholar?
"You cannot live a life of good without being a true Muslim." We could argue about what 'good' means, of course, but this amounts to little more than brainwashing. It's perfectly possible to lead a life of selflessness (as much as any human can) that benefits others and leaves a legacy of good without being a Muslim. Martin Luther King, M. K. Ghandi, Oscar Romero and countless other examples will attest to this.
Apparently denying Islam is equal to (or possibly worse) than murder. This shows an astonishing disregard for the right to life, and is a more innocuous-sounding part of the very same mentality that enables "so-called Muslim" suicide bombers to exist.
His final point on this question, about "salvific exclusivity", amounts to stating that "every other religion believes this, so why can't we?" And that, my friends, is one big reason why people like me think that all religions are a waste of everybody's time. They can't all be right, by their own tenets, but they can all be wrong.
I am amazed that someone as intelligent as you, Osman, could think that the views of this man are worth sharing.
On the plus side, however, I thought the stage set was absolutely excellent!
I can't watch all of that video, but I skipped forward to that bit where that woman asked a question, and the scholar started talking about grapes.
Yes, that was amusing.
He was referring to a group of modernists who seek to deny the fact that men will have virgins in paradise by interpreting the word as meaning 'grapes' instead of 'virgins'.
czgibson, I've read your post and will reply shortly.
"I spent thirty years learning manners, and I spent twenty years learning knowledge."
Horrifying. The man can barely conceal his hatred for non-Muslims. Does he count as an Islamic scholar?
It is absolutely not true that he hates Non-Muslims. I assure you that he has formed his views based purely on scripture. Like any orthodox Muslim, he does not believe what he believes just because he wants to believe it but rather he genuinely believes this to be the truth based on the texts. Does he count as an Islamic scholar? Well, he has studied under various scholars at the Islamic University of Madinah and has authored a few books about Islam, about which I consider him to be very knowledgeable.He has also spoken out firmly against violence and extremism committed in the name of Islam, which has led to some extremist "Muslims" deeming him to be an American sell-out.
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
"You cannot live a life of good without being a true Muslim." We could argue about what 'good' means, of course, but this amounts to little more than brainwashing. It's perfectly possible to lead a life of selflessness (as much as any human can) that benefits others and leaves a legacy of good without being a Muslim. Martin Luther King, M. K. Ghandi, Oscar Romero and countless other examples will attest to this.
I was going to argue about what 'good' means but you've already dismissed anything I could possibly say as "little more than brainwashing".
In the case of the individuals you mentioned, I will stress again that, if they knew Islam to be the truth and rejected it, then they will not go to paradise. If they were unaware about it, then Allah (the glorified and exalted) might let them into paradise from his mercy. By the way, none of us - not even the best of us - will enter paradise except by Allah's mercy and this is because no amount of worship we can do will ever be enough to worship Allah as much as he deserves to be worshipped.
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Apparently denying Islam is equal to (or possibly worse) than murder. This shows an astonishing disregard for the right to life, and is a more innocuous-sounding part of the very same mentality that enables "so-called Muslim" suicide bombers to exist.
The point was that, to knowingly reject the truth about your purpose for existence and thus indirectly claim that what Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said was false is enough to eclipse a lifetime of 'good' (whatever that means) that you might have done. Let's think about the bigger picture here - the very reason that we exist. According to Islam, the only reason that we were created is to worship Allah (the way he wants us to worship him). If somebody comes to realise this purpose and rejects it, then they have done something very evil. If they go on to do things that would have been considered good, had they been done for Allah's sake, then these deeds will not avail them because they are continuing to do something very evil by not fulfilling the real purpose of their existence despite them knowing full well what that purpose is.
I'm not sure how you inferred his analogy as being 'an astonishing disregard for the right to life' though. He neither said nor implied in any way that it is acceptable to murder a Non-Muslim. He was using murder as an example of something very evil which completely eclipses anything good that you might have done.
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
His final point on this question, about "salvific exclusivity", amounts to stating that "every other religion believes this, so why can't we?"
His mention of salvific exclusivity being a part of every religion was really more of a side point. In fact he used the words "by the way" right before he said it. He wasn't stating it as a reason to believe in salvific exclusivity, but merely mentioning it as an additional side point to consider.
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I am amazed that someone as intelligent as you, Osman, could think that the views of this man are worth sharing.
As I said earlier, these are not his personal views, but the mainstream Islamic position. He studied at the Islamic University of Madinah, his views are based on an orthodox understanding of the texts and I consider myself to be an orthodox Muslim. Anyway, I know you don't like what he says but if you want to know the mainstream Islamic position on this issue, then you should definitely listen to him.
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
On the plus side, however, I thought the stage set was absolutely excellent!
I don't suppose you'd like to see more of it?
Regards
"I spent thirty years learning manners, and I spent twenty years learning knowledge."
Sorry. I know my reply sounded harsh. I just find it very upsetting that many, many people appear to believe these things.
format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān
It is absolutely not true that he hates Non-Muslims. I assure you that he has formed his views based purely on scripture.
That is a non sequitur, surely?
I was going to argue about what 'good' means but you've already dismissed anything I could possibly say as "little more than brainwashing".
My fault again - I phrased that badly. I meant that his statement "You cannot live a life of good without being a true Muslim" amounted to little more than brainwashing.
The point was that, to knowingly reject the truth about your purpose for existence and thus indirectly claim that what Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said was false is enough to eclipse a lifetime of 'good' (whatever that means) that you might have done. Let's think about the bigger picture here - the very reason that we exist. According to Islam, the only reason that we were created is to worship Allah (the way he wants us to worship him). If somebody comes to realise this purpose and rejects it, then they have done something very evil. If they go on to do things that would have been considered good, had they been done for Allah's sake, then these deeds will not avail them because they are continuing to do something very evil by not fulfilling the real purpose of their existence despite them knowing full well what that purpose is.
This is the most interesting part of this issue. You seem now to be talking about people who believe in Islam and then reject it. Is that different from someone studying Islam and learning lots about it, while never at any stage believing it to be true?
I'm not sure how you inferred his analogy as being 'an astonishing disregard for the right to life' though. He neither said nor implied in any way that it is acceptable to murder a Non-Muslim. He was using murder as an example of something very evil which completely eclipses anything good that you might have done.
I know he didn't imply that, and I don't really think he believes it either, but his words definitely enable the mindset of the suicide bomber to exist. Denying Islam is an action that, even if Islam is true, harms nobody except the person doing it. Murder clearly harms others, so there is no moral equivalence here. If you think there is, then surely that downgrades your attitude to the right to life?
His mention of salvific exclusivity being a part of every religion was really more of a side point. In fact he used the words "by the way" right before he said it. He wasn't stating it as a reason to believe in salvific exclusivity, but merely mentioning it as an additional side point to consider.
Well, fair enough - I've already stated my thoughts on it.
As I said earlier, these are not his personal views, but the mainstream Islamic position. He studied at the Islamic University of Madinah, his views are based on an orthodox understanding of the texts and I consider myself to be an orthodox Muslim. Anyway, I know you don't like what he says but if you want to know the mainstream Islamic position on this issue, then you should definitely listen to him.
I suppose, then, I'm simply saying "I don't understand how you can believe Islam is true", which is something that it's very difficult for me to avoid coming back to. This division of the world into believers and non-believers is something that most religions (and other organisations) do, and to me it's always seemed very damaging. Violent people can easily take advantage of such a state of affairs, and religion just gives them one more reason to do so.
Horrifying. The man can barely conceal his hatred for non-Muslims. Does he count as an Islamic scholar?
what do you want us to do? Love you, like you? Do you love us? You reject Islam and attack Islam from left and right and you want us to not to hate you for your kufr and violating the rights of Allah!? Yes, we hate you due to your actions and belief! This is most nonsensical thing that I ever hear from you kuffaar and your complains "o Muslims hate us; o Muslims call us kafir" are not going to help you! The one who does not hate the kuffaar for their actions and beliefs and yet claim to be a Muslim then he should know that the imaan has left his heart!
And yes he is a knowledgeable person for us and we do not need to hear from kuffaar who is an Islamic scholar and who is not.
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
"You cannot live a life of good without being a true Muslim." We could argue about what 'good' means, of course, but this amounts to little more than brainwashing. It's perfectly possible to lead a life of selflessness (as much as any human can) that benefits others and leaves a legacy of good without being a Muslim. Martin Luther King, M. K. Ghandi, Oscar Romero and countless other examples will attest to this.
what is brainwashing is telling people that there is no absolute truth and operating on this paradigm and forcing people to live by your subjective standards, which leads to nothing but more oppression and injustice. Good is that which is defined by the Creator and not by puny humans deficient knowledge and intellect.
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Apparently denying Islam is equal to (or possibly worse) than murder. This shows an astonishing disregard for the right to life, and is a more innocuous-sounding part of the very same mentality that enables "so-called Muslim" suicide bombers to exist.
again, these thoughts stems because your whole ideology is corrupt; thus, you cannot understand Islam and whenever you do try then you use your own corrupt notions and standards which is not objective in any field of academic. Islam is to be understood by its own standards and principles. The rights of Allah greatly outweigh the rights of the humans; thus, denying Allah and His Message is worse than killing a human being. Because your whole methodology is corrupt and not based upon Prophetic understanding; hence, you cannot swallow this and your list of crimes are only limited to humans. You are here complaining about rights of humans but what about the rights of your Creator, the one Who Created you and gave you everything you have? Who deserve to be given more respect!?
The main problem with you and many other athiest/agonistic members on this board is that you should be talking about believing in Allah and not laws of Islam and why this or that scholar say what he says or why does he hate us. Because until you cannot understand and agree upon the sources, principles and standards of Islam, you will never be able to understand and swallow the laws of Islam and speech of our scholars.
And it is absurd for you to make a correlation between what we are discussing and with suicide bombing, which almost in all cases have no place in Islam. Hating you for your kufr and calling spade for spade for violating the rights of Allah and speaking haqq does not encourage us or gives us the room to kill innocent people. This is only in the minds of corrupt people, like yourself, because your whole mentality is stuck at these sorts of things and your train of thoughts cannot go further than this station.
rest is typical rambling
format_quote Originally Posted by adriatic82
This topic made me so angry ,who the hell told u that non muslims go to hell,No body goes to hell if they beleive in God and u do good things,evrybody has questions in their mind about God ,cuz no none has seen him,and a lot of people beleive in God in their own way,The only people that will go to hell are people who do bad things and who dont beleive in God at all.SO my friend dont worry about ur relatives as if they beleive in God then the heaven will be ready for them
God bless you
how dare you actually say this and yet claim to be a Muslim? You think the people who deny the Message of Allah and those who deny His existence are not going to hell!? Where did you learn your Islam!? So Christians are going to heaven too because they believe in God in their own way when the Qur'an called them outright heretics and those who will go to hell?
عن تميم بن أوس الداري أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: قال الدين النصيحة ثلاثا قلنا لمن يا رسول الله قال لله ولكتابه ولرسوله ولأئمة المسلمين وعامتهم - رواه مسلم
what do you want us to do? Love you, like you? Do you love us? You reject Islam and attack Islam from left and right and you want us to not to hate you for your kufr and violating the rights of Allah!? Yes, we hate you due to your actions and belief! This is most nonsensical thing that I ever hear from you kuffaar and your complains "o Muslims hate us; o Muslims call us kafir" are not going to help you! The one who does not hate the kuffaar for their actions and beliefs and yet claim to be a Muslim then he should know that the imaan has left his heart!
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Non-muslims sent to hell (OP)
Most of my friends are also not muslim and are atheists, Christians and Hindus and are the most loveliest people you could imagine. I read that adults who have not heard the message, however, i.e. the testimony of faith, will not be held accountable. What if they hear about islam on the news and never hear the shahada or what if I talk to them about islam in general and just never mention that? Does anyone have any thoughts about this?
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