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Trinity led me to Islam

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    Trinity led me to Islam (OP)


    The Trinity Led Me to Islam



    An Irish Dentist Embraces Islam


    My name is Roger Hadden, and I am originally from Dungannon in Northern Ireland. I am a dentist currently working in England. I have lived in Northern Ireland and Scotland, and I am now based in England. I was raised as a Christian, and my parents are born-again Christians.

    Although I was raised with the teachings of the Bible, I did not particularly adhere to its principles. I suppose I was like most British youth, in that I liked to have fun but maybe didn't know where the limits were set.


    While I did not practice any religion, I always believed that there was a God. I was scientifically minded, but realized that acknowledging there was a Big Bang did not necessarily rule out the possibility of there being a God who controlled and planned this event.


    We could not have come out of nothing, and we did not create ourselves, so we must have been created. I thought about God from time to time, but it never had a real impact on my heart. My first encounter with Islam I suppose was the media, but I tend not to judge people or things until I see or find out about them myself and hear both sides of the story.


    When I went to university I met many Muslims. At that time we discussed religion a little, but I was not seriously thinking about becoming religious. My desires were too strong, so I just wanted to enjoy myself.


    At that time, I knew that at some stage I would want to change my ways and become a Christian. I then would also want to find out about other religions and understand what makes people believe in them. When I was in final year at university, I made plans to reform myself and become as my parents, a "born-again Christian". So I started my research with reading the Bible.


    The concept of the Trinity always bothered me, and it was my main aim to understand it. I remember as a child wanting to ask God for something. I was not sure whether to pray to God or to pray to Jesus. I decided to pray to God as I knew if He created everything, then He will hear me and help me.


    I spoke to some ministers, and several attempts were made to explain the Trinity. None of them convinced me. I continued to read the Bible, searching for the truth.


    Obviously I am not a scholar in the Christian religion but the Trinity issue bugged me. Why did the Old Testament prophets all pray to God and do righteous acts hoping for God's forgiveness? Who did Jesus pray to?


    There was no mention of the Trinity in the Old Testament, and many argue none in the New Testament. I knew God did not change, so there was a problem somewhere. I spoke to my friends at University. Some were Sikhs, Catholics, atheists, and some were Muslims.


    My conversion changed my life completely, and looking back I know I made the correct decision


    When I found out that Islam commands the worship of One God, and not to make any partners with Him, I was very interested. I continued reading the Bible and Christian sources but also started reading some Islamic books.

    I read that Muslims believe that God sent his message to mankind through different prophets since Adam the first man. All the prophets believed in only One God and they also believed that there was going to be a day of reckoning when everyone will be raised and judged.


    I realized that this is what I believe, and what I thought the Bible was saying to me. I discussed things with my parents, and they were not too impressed. Within a couple of months by the grace of God I became a Muslim.


    My conversion changed my life completely, and looking back, I know I made the correct decision, thank God. Instead of living my life in a selfish way pleasing my desires, I try now to help others and please my Lord. I have now been a Muslim for five years and I am still learning new and amazing things about the religion.


    Every time I hear something "negative" about the religion, I get the issue explained to me and it turns out to be a very positive and beautiful thing. I am continuing to learn Arabic and the Quran.


    In my career it has made me much more focused, and I now desire to do everything to my best ability. My friends at university are often surprised with regards to my change, especially relating to dentistry.


    My parents believed I was brainwashed, and many of my friends thought, and still think, it is just a phase. As it has been over five years now, my parents know it is not just a phase.


    I first told my parents that I was thinking of becoming a Muslim, and they told me that it was a "hate religion" and that I should not do it. We talked about it for a while, and as I was convinced, I was sure I had to do it. I did not want to be punished in the next life.


    A few months later I took the best step and embraced Islam. The same day my Dad bought me a car, not as a conversion gift, rather, it was his kindness and it just happened to be on the same day.


    Since university, I have always lived away from my parents but I try to visit them a couple of times a year. Overall though, I feel my relationship with my parents has improved, as I try to be good to them as God commands in the Quran.


    I have moved on from university and lost contact with many of my friends, some I speak to now and again, but as with life, we keep moving on and old friends we see less of and new friends are made.


    I am currently working as a dentist in the UK. I am working and doing a part time masters program. I am learning Arabic, and I regularly attend Islamic talks and seminars in order to increase my knowledge.


    I am married to a very special lady and we have, by the grace of God a beautiful 1-year-
    old boy named Ismael (Ishmael from the Bible). We are trying to improve as Muslims, and we would like to travel abroad to a Muslim country. Ideally we would both love to study Islam to a higher level, so we are looking for opportunities to fulfill this dream.


    By Roger Hadden
    Last edited by Tilmeez; 09-28-2010 at 06:00 AM.

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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

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    format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar View Post
    Seriously, do you guys have some sort of creative writing competition in church in "how to explain trinity in the most wordy and elaborate way"?
    HA HA HA It may seem That way that way some times
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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow View Post
    Are you sure you understand Christianity?

    Do you not worship Jesus(as) with separate prayers and teach that the "Way to the Father, is through the Son"?

    Do you not believe Jesus(as) is the only "Begotten Son of God(swt)?

    Do you not believe Jesus(as) died and was resurrected? This alone separates Jesus(as) as a separate being from the Father as the Father is eternal and did not die.
    Yes I do believe all that. Just because God can make a full expression of himself through the form of one of the persons in the trinity does not seem to me, to counter the Fact that their is one God.

    As for God dying, this is true, but as we know the soul is eternal, and Jesus was not destroyed, but rather took a journey from the natural world to to the supernatural world in his death. His earthly body died, but his spirit continued on it's path to grant us salvation by assailing the gates of hell, and returning from the dead with a path to heaven.
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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    But none of this precludes the oneness of God does it? One cannot explain of course how there can be one in three and three in one and we can only use analogies such as when I am at work I am person X when at home person Y and when ..... But my question to you is do you reject the trinity, lets call it a concept because you don't understand it or is there some other reason?
    The whole point of this dogma called the trinity is to explain the divinity of Christ, the father and the holy ghost. Ofcourse muslims reject that Christ is divine therefore nulifying the entire dogma of the trinity - for any pure montheist its hard to accept the concept of the trinity simply because it contradicts pure montheism.

    Your analogy is weak a better one would be your a human at home - a non human at work and a............

    so according to christians

    Jesus (pbuh) is God
    Holy ghost is God
    Father is God

    But you still believe in one God? ofcourse lets not even get into the Jesus being part man and part God which complicates things even further.
    Last edited by Zafran; 10-21-2010 at 02:03 AM.
    Trinity led me to Islam

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow View Post
    Sure enough sounds like a separate Being. And that is after 7 centuries of refining the prayer from the second to 9th centuries to get it to appear to be more in line with the Trinity being one God(swt) The earlier versions were a bit more, shall we say separatist

    The Earliest known version is the Latin "Symbolum Apostolorum" Which at least 3 versions exist. Notice the lack of mentioning of the "Holy Ghost" The concept of trinity was still forming and Christianity was at a Dualism not quite being Trinitarian yet.
    I don't know enough about the timeline of the trinity's acceptance to intelligently disagree with you, but what I will say is that it is seen as a blessing in the Church that God continues to revel his truth through the church's ecumenical councils and the decisions of his Church's wise leaders.
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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by bibleblevr View Post
    Yes I do believe all that. Just because God can make a full expression of himself through the form of one of the persons in the trinity does not seem to me, to counter the Fact that their is one God.

    As for God dying, this is true, but as we know the soul is eternal, and Jesus was not destroyed, but rather took a journey from the natural world to to the supernatural world in his death. His earthly body died, but his spirit continued on it's path to grant us salvation by assailing the gates of hell, and returning from the dead with a path to heaven.
    why does God have to die when God is the living? God can grant you salvation by forgiving you if you ask for repentence.
    Trinity led me to Islam

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
    chat Quote

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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    why does God have to die when God is the living? God can grant you salvation by forgiving you if you ask for repentence.
    It makes for an interesting Narnia show..

    Trinity led me to Islam

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    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Trinity led me to Islam

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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor View Post
    and YET, you will be explaining those "parts" below!


    Yes, the nature of the trinity is that God is distinct in three fully divine persons, yet he in one God. The exact nature of the trinity is considered as a mystery by Christianity.

    as rock is a rock! a rock is not God and God is not a rock!

    It is a metaphor deigned to illustrate how something can exist in three ways all being fully the item of which we speak. Fear not, neither I nor any other sane individual believes God is a rock.

    Plato was a Pagan! as such, he had NO IDEA as to how God operates. Philosophy is trying to guess whereas Revelation is God actually informing us! why do do prefer pagan concepts of God?
    I am not advocating for Plato's position on God, especially since he had no concept of the trinity. I am using his way of explaining the states in which a thing can be fully existent. This useful explanation is like the gold that the Jews took leaving Egypt, it is from an ungodly source, but it can be usefully pressed into the Lord's service for his Glory none the less.

    a rock is a rock, even charlie Brown knows that!
    Lets not bring Charlie brown into this now


    actually, your gospels said that Jesus said that about himself
    Very true, because Jesus is in fact fully God


    actually, the idea of "the logos" comes from pagan Philosophy. and a god that is dependent upon another god can only be a junior god or not even a god really. and IF you always have 2 or more gods, then you were NEVER monotheists.

    "Logos" is first and foremost a Greek word, not an pagan idea (That I know of), it simply is used In the Bible for its efficient way of explaining how Jesus is the word, likeness, symbol, full embodiment of God, description, ect..... without having to name off what I just did and more. Conveniently the Greeks had a word that fit our meaning, so why not use it

    Jesus is not a God dependent on another God, there is one God, he holds both a dependent position that is co-eternal with god, and a fatherly one which is not dependent, as I illustrated in my first post, the same "thing" can be fully itself in multiple forms without becoming multiple things, or being divided into parts that would make up a whole.

    One cannot explain of course how there can be one in three and three in one
    just stop right there. no further explanation called for!


    Of course, I disagree, as I have offered the best explanation I can, and believe it to be true. You have heard my explanation, take it or leave it, the choice is up to you. I simply ask that you ponder the possibility of the trinity without the forgone conclusion that it is false.
    Peace
    By the way, I appreciate the civility of the discussion thus far.
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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor View Post
    actually, the holy spirit in Christian art is always portrayed as a bird! one of your gods is a bird! and why does he "betray God?"
    "Betray" is a synonym for the word "reveal", sorry for any confusion my diction may have caused.

    As for the Bird, it is a symbol of the Holy spirit, the Holy spirit is also symbolized by water, fire, and light, but it is not any of these either. Also, it is important to note that it is not, and it has never been a teaching of the Church, that God is in any capacity, a bird.
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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    so Jesus pbuh is fully God? - why doesnt he know when the last hour is then if hes fully God he should be all knowing?
    Trinity led me to Islam

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
    chat Quote

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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor View Post
    The Son is the sign he is called the image of the invisible God, and is also called God's "Logos" He is the father's word and the fathers full representation,
    format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ View Post
    nice so that leaves us with the other two, one lamb and one lion..
    format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor View Post
    actually, the holy spirit in Christian art is always portrayed as a bird! one of your gods is a bird! and why does he "betray God?"
    format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor View Post
    Imagine that you are looking at a rock, This rock has a structure that is defined and made of stone. It exists in the most real and basic way.

    as rock is a rock! a rock is not God and God is not a rock!


    So this is God's reincarnation evolution timeline according to christians:

    God --------> spirit -------> man --------> bird -------> lion --------> lamb -------> fish -------> rock.


    I shudder to think what's next.

    so from the chart it is clear to see that for christians, god is everything from a ghost to a half naked man dying to a rock, but never a god.
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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    I never could understand how if Jesus were God, in the NT he often goes off and prays to The Father (God). How could he pray to himself?

    Why would he tell his followers "don't call me good, only one is good your Father in Heaven"?

    Why, if Jesus were God, did the Father say "this is my beloved son in whom I am well-pleased" after Jesus was baptized? He wasn't a ventriloquist was he? It makes no sense.

    Why would he teach his disciples the Lord's prayer (Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, etc.,) if he were God? It doesn't make sense that he teaches them to pray to the Father unless of course Jesus really wasn't God.

    The whole explanation of the trinity just seems to be an argument to try to fit Jesus' life into some type of divinity so that it agrees with the Old Testament concept of One God because the NT story of Jesus' life does not fit with the OT at all.
    Trinity led me to Islam

    “All day I think about it, then at night I say it. Where did I come from, and what am I supposed to be doing? I have no idea. My soul is from elsewhere, I'm sure of that, and I intend to end up there.”

    Rumi
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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    why does God have to die when God is the living? God can grant you salvation by forgiving you if you ask for repentence.
    There is a difference between God forgiving sins, and God granting salvation. God can forgive sins just by saying they are forgiven, and if one repents, they are as if they never happened. However, Christ's death went beyond forgiveness of sins! When he died, he descended into hell, and broke the gates that hold the souls inside. By his death and resurrection, he made a way to heaven. When we are baptized, we participate in his death, and our evil sinful nature is destroyed. Jesus carried his elect's sin, and sinful stains to the grave and left them there forever. If we give our lives for the following of Christ, we also participate in his resurrection, and by the merit of Jesus's perfect life, we are afforded the benefits of his inheritance. God sees Jesus standing in our place when ever he is to issue justice, we gain eternal life, and become sons of God by the merit of Jesus's perfect life and death. Furthermore, God gives us a new nature, one in which the Holy Spirit can dwell inside of, and transform into a temple on God.


    None of these things would be possible unless God died in our place, otherwise who could have broken the gates of hell? Who could have lived a life so perfect that the grave had no right to keep him? Who could bear the sin, guilt and fallen natures of all of his elect, and yet be without spot or blemish? Finally, who's righteousnesses if so great that his reward is enough for all of his people to be blessed with life eternal and even communion with the father like he has!
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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by bibleblevr View Post
    None of these things would be possible unless God died in our place, otherwise who could have broken the gates of hell?
    ha? why did god create hell all together?
    how farcical is all of this? he can scratch out hell and be less dramatic and not die in a little town in Palestine neglecting the rest of the universe for something as absurd as eating sins ..

    give me a break mac.. I know they come up with these convoluted tales to appease your queries and indeed you must have low standards but surely you can fathom that others think completely outside that box!

    all the best
    Trinity led me to Islam

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Trinity led me to Islam

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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by bibleblevr View Post
    There is a difference between God forgiving sins, and God granting salvation. God can forgive sins just by saying they are forgiven, and if one repents, they are as if they never happened. However, Christ's death went beyond forgiveness of sins! When he died, he descended into hell, and broke the gates that hold the souls inside. By his death and resurrection, he made a way to heaven. When we are baptized, we participate in his death, and our evil sinful nature is destroyed. Jesus carried his elect's sin, and sinful stains to the grave and left them there forever. If we give our lives for the following of Christ, we also participate in his resurrection, and by the merit of Jesus's perfect life, we are afforded the benefits of his inheritance. God sees Jesus standing in our place when ever he is to issue justice, we gain eternal life, and become sons of God by the merit of Jesus's perfect life and death. Furthermore, God gives us a new nature, one in which the Holy Spirit can dwell inside of, and transform into a temple on God.


    None of these things would be possible unless God died in our place, otherwise who could have broken the gates of hell? Who could have lived a life so perfect that the grave had no right to keep him? Who could bear the sin, guilt and fallen natures of all of his elect, and yet be without spot or blemish? Finally, who's righteousnesses if so great that his reward is enough for all of his people to be blessed with life eternal and even communion with the father like he has!
    so what was the point of hell and why does God have to die to close the gates of hell - God can just close them by just closing them? Why commit suicide? why create hell in the first place just so God can die? whats the justice of somebody else taking the sentence for you - the man taking the sentence is also innocent.
    Last edited by Zafran; 10-22-2010 at 02:32 AM.
    Trinity led me to Islam

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
    chat Quote

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    bibleblevr's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    so Jesus pbuh is fully God? - why doesnt he know when the last hour is then if hes fully God he should be all knowing?
    He is all knowing.
    Do you remember in the prophet Isaiah's book where it says I, even I (God), am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. Or as the prophet Jeremiah says, (God speaking) For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more
    God can choose not to remember sin, in the same way, Jesus, even though he is omniscient, can choose not to know the hour or the day of his return.
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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ View Post
    ha? why did god create hell all together?
    Because having a place where those who are evil can be punished, is consistent with his nature. God is a just God, and justice demands that people are sent to hell if they break his law. The message That Jesus brings however, is that although God values Justice, he values mercy even more highly.
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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by bibleblevr View Post
    He is all knowing.
    Do you remember in the prophet Isaiah's book where it says I, even I (God), am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. Or as the prophet Jeremiah says, (God speaking) For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more
    God can choose not to remember sin, in the same way, Jesus, even though he is omniscient, can choose not to know the hour or the day of his return.
    so your saying God forgets?

    It seems to me that Isiah is talking about forgivness that when God forgives it is as if the person hasnt sinned, ie what forgivness is *forgive and forget" - its got nothing to do with Knowledge or God being all knowing.

    Forgiving is radically different from not knowing the last hour.
    Last edited by Zafran; 10-22-2010 at 02:31 AM.
    Trinity led me to Islam

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    Mercy is not possible unless justice is first in place, thus hell must exist before before God can grant the mercy of heaven.
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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by bibleblevr View Post
    Mercy is not possible unless justice is first in place, thus hell must exist before before God can grant the mercy of heaven.
    why does it? God can just be merciful if he wills - God doesnt NEED hell to be merciful?
    Trinity led me to Islam

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
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    Re: Trinity led me to Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    so your saying God forgets?

    It seems to me that Isiah is talking about forgivness that when God forgives it is as if the person hasnt sinned, ie what forgivness is - its got nothing to do with Knowledge or God being all knowing.
    The prophet clearly says that God remembers no more. God is all powerful, and can hold a paradoxical position if he chooses, being in a state of remembering and forgetting at the same time. However, It is likely that God means that our sins are not in the forefront of his conciseness, and that he simply thinks of them no more, If he wanted to recall them, he surly could, but he doesn't. Jesus also has chosen not to know the hour or day, and has kept it from his consciousness, like the Father, he could know if he wanted, but In Christ's case, he wants instead to remain is a state of expectation instead.
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