My name is Roger Hadden, and I am originally from Dungannon in Northern Ireland. I am a dentist currently working in England. I have lived in Northern Ireland and Scotland, and I am now based in England. I was raised as a Christian, and my parents are born-again Christians.
Although I was raised with the teachings of the Bible, I did not particularly adhere to its principles. I suppose I was like most British youth, in that I liked to have fun but maybe didn't know where the limits were set.
While I did not practice any religion, I always believed that there was a God. I was scientifically minded, but realized that acknowledging there was a Big Bang did not necessarily rule out the possibility of there being a God who controlled and planned this event.
We could not have come out of nothing, and we did not create ourselves, so we must have been created. I thought about God from time to time, but it never had a real impact on my heart. My first encounter with Islam I suppose was the media, but I tend not to judge people or things until I see or find out about them myself and hear both sides of the story.
When I went to university I met many Muslims. At that time we discussed religion a little, but I was not seriously thinking about becoming religious. My desires were too strong, so I just wanted to enjoy myself.
At that time, I knew that at some stage I would want to change my ways and become a Christian. I then would also want to find out about other religions and understand what makes people believe in them. When I was in final year at university, I made plans to reform myself and become as my parents, a "born-again Christian". So I started my research with reading the Bible.
The concept of the Trinity always bothered me, and it was my main aim to understand it. I remember as a child wanting to ask God for something. I was not sure whether to pray to God or to pray to Jesus. I decided to pray to God as I knew if He created everything, then He will hear me and help me.
I spoke to some ministers, and several attempts were made to explain the Trinity. None of them convinced me. I continued to read the Bible, searching for the truth.
Obviously I am not a scholar in the Christian religion but the Trinity issue bugged me. Why did the Old Testament prophets all pray to God and do righteous acts hoping for God's forgiveness? Who did Jesus pray to?
There was no mention of the Trinity in the Old Testament, and many argue none in the New Testament. I knew God did not change, so there was a problem somewhere. I spoke to my friends at University. Some were Sikhs, Catholics, atheists, and some were Muslims.
My conversion changed my life completely, and looking back I know I made the correct decision
When I found out that Islam commands the worship of One God, and not to make any partners with Him, I was very interested. I continued reading the Bible and Christian sources but also started reading some Islamic books.
I read that Muslims believe that God sent his message to mankind through different prophets since Adam the first man. All the prophets believed in only One God and they also believed that there was going to be a day of reckoning when everyone will be raised and judged.
I realized that this is what I believe, and what I thought the Bible was saying to me. I discussed things with my parents, and they were not too impressed. Within a couple of months by the grace of God I became a Muslim.
My conversion changed my life completely, and looking back, I know I made the correct decision, thank God. Instead of living my life in a selfish way pleasing my desires, I try now to help others and please my Lord. I have now been a Muslim for five years and I am still learning new and amazing things about the religion.
Every time I hear something "negative" about the religion, I get the issue explained to me and it turns out to be a very positive and beautiful thing. I am continuing to learn Arabic and the Quran.
In my career it has made me much more focused, and I now desire to do everything to my best ability. My friends at university are often surprised with regards to my change, especially relating to dentistry.
My parents believed I was brainwashed, and many of my friends thought, and still think, it is just a phase. As it has been over five years now, my parents know it is not just a phase.
I first told my parents that I was thinking of becoming a Muslim, and they told me that it was a "hate religion" and that I should not do it. We talked about it for a while, and as I was convinced, I was sure I had to do it. I did not want to be punished in the next life.
A few months later I took the best step and embraced Islam. The same day my Dad bought me a car, not as a conversion gift, rather, it was his kindness and it just happened to be on the same day.
Since university, I have always lived away from my parents but I try to visit them a couple of times a year. Overall though, I feel my relationship with my parents has improved, as I try to be good to them as God commands in the Quran.
I have moved on from university and lost contact with many of my friends, some I speak to now and again, but as with life, we keep moving on and old friends we see less of and new friends are made.
I am currently working as a dentist in the UK. I am working and doing a part time masters program. I am learning Arabic, and I regularly attend Islamic talks and seminars in order to increase my knowledge.
I am married to a very special lady and we have, by the grace of God a beautiful 1-year- old boy named Ismael (Ishmael from the Bible). We are trying to improve as Muslims, and we would like to travel abroad to a Muslim country. Ideally we would both love to study Islam to a higher level, so we are looking for opportunities to fulfill this dream.
Because having a place where those who are evil can be punished, is consistent with his nature. God is a just God, and justice demands that people are sent to hell if they break his law. The message That Jesus brings however, is that although God values Justice, he values mercy even more highly.
Yes having an all loving nature and loving 'everyone' unfortunately doesn't reconcile with casting people in hell, perhaps you need a paradigm shift to describe this god so your arguments wouldn't be so extravagantly humorous, valuing justice and mercy can be carried out without god having to die with all that, that would imply!
format_quote Originally Posted by bibleblevr
Mercy is not possible unless justice is first in place, thus hell must exist before before God can grant the mercy of heaven.
God can't love 'everybody' and create hell to cast those whom he loves into it. And the saddest part is that this god you describe couldn't care less for all your deeds good or bad so long as you believe he died eating those sins, in other words you can bang your way through life do every sin imaginable as opposed to someone who spent a life in prayer and good deeds but doesn't believe in that self-immolating farce to be cast in the hell.. That doesn't describe an all loving god, and it certainly doesn't describe a just one either!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
why does it? God can just be merciful if he wills - God doesnt NEED hell to be merciful?
Mercy from what? if there is no punishment what mercy is he showing? Mercy is choosing not to use you right to justice, If there is no justice first in place, then what right is he forgoing?
so what was the point of hell and why does God have to die to close the gates of hell - God can just close them by just closing them? Why commit suicide? why create hell in the first place just so God can die? whats the justice of somebody else taking the sentence for you whos actually innocent of the sin?
THe point of hell is to bring justice, by punishing sinners for their sins. God did not close the gates, he opened them, meaning, people can now die, but will not be stuck dead in the grave, but rather can live in heaven. There is no justice in someone else taking you punishment, it is Mercy and mercy is better than justice.
The prophet clearly says that God remembers no more. God is all powerful, and can hold a paradoxical position if he chooses, being in a state of remembering and forgetting at the same time. However, It is likely that God means that our sins are not in the forefront of his conciseness, and that he simply thinks of them no more, If he wanted to recall them, he surly could, but he doesn't. Jesus also has chosen not to know the hour or day, and has kept it from his consciousness, like the Father, he could know if he wanted, but In Christ's case, he wants instead to remain is a state of expectation instead.
and? its like me saying if somebody hurt me - "forget about it" - Can God be all knowing and forgetful at the same time? It is a paradox thats the problem - how can you keep something away from your counciousness? when you forget you cant control it - making you less aware, therefore not all knowing.
Last edited by Zafran; 10-22-2010 at 02:46 AM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
THe point of hell is to bring justice, by punishing sinners for their sins. God did not close the gates, he opened them, meaning, people can now die, but will not be stuck dead in the grave, but rather can live in heaven. There is no justice in someone else taking you punishment, it is Mercy and mercy is better than justice.
How is mercy better then Justice? If God opened the gates of hell God can also close them the same way.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Yes having an all loving nature and loving 'everyone' unfortunately doesn't reconcile with casting people in hell, perhaps you need a paradigm shift to describe this god so your arguments wouldn't be so extravagantly humorous, valuing justice and mercy can be carried out without god having to die with all that, that would imply!
God does not love everyone. God loves all people and there actions in the context of his overall creation, but there are wheat and tares in humanity, sheep and goats, the seed of Satan and the children of God. God love his people not Satan's. The seed of Satan will be cast into hell forever, and this is right, they have rejected God and his path to eternal life of their own choosing. In Hell they will be punished according to their deeds and then destroyed.
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
God can't love 'everybody' and create hell to cast those whom he loves into it. And the saddest part is that this god you describe couldn't care less for all your deeds good or bad so long as you believe he died eating those sins, in other words you can bang your way through life do every sin imaginable as opposed to someone who spent a life in prayer and good deeds but doesn't believe in that self-immolating farce to be cast in the hell.. That doesn't describe an all loving god, and it certainly doesn't describe a just one either!
God does care for our deeds. In Heaven, those who have been righteous will revieve a much greater reward then those then those who have not been. Those who achieved salvation, but are not fully righteous will be sent to purgatory. In Hell sinners will be punished according to their deeds as I said above.
Just believing that Jesus died for us is not enough! The Bible says that not all that cry "Lord , Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven but those who DO THE WILL ON THE FATHER. Faith is dead without works God cares about deeds.
when you forget you cant control it - making you less aware, therefore not all knowing.
And if there are things that you can't do, then that make you not all powerful, but we agree God God is all powerful, So I believe my explanation does a good job or keeping both of these true qualities of God in tact.
How is mercy better then Justice? If God opened the gates of hell God can also close them the same way.
How is mercy better then Justice? Justice sends us all to hell because none of us have fulfilled the Law. Mercy lets us live. That is how it is better. God loves us and sees our weakness, and chooses to let us live even though we have chosen death by sin.
How is mercy better then Justice? Justice sends us all to hell because none of us have fulfilled the Law. Mercy lets us live. That is how it is better. God loves us and sees our weakness, and chooses to let us live even though we have chosen death by sin.
Only christians seem to not fulfill the law because of this false complacency that god ate their sins.. the rest of us certain live and strive to live by God's law.. further no one enters into heaven or hell because of fulfillment of this law, rather God's mercy, and such mercy doesn't require god to self-immolate!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
is this a new spin? god doesn't love everyone, god loves all people? what a bunch of nutters christians are!
and there actions in the context of his overall creation, but there are wheat and tares in humanity, sheep and goats, the seed of Satan and the children of God. God love his people not Satan's. The seed of Satan will be cast into hell forever, and this is right, they have rejected God and his path to eternal life of their own choosing. In Hell they will be punished according to their deeds and then destroyed.
That line means god doesn't love everybody so stop with the love crap!
by the way it appears your god didn't only beget Jesus, but satan as well:
The sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6
God does care for our deeds. In Heaven, those who have been righteous will revieve a much greater reward then those then those who have not been. Those who achieved salvation, but are not fully righteous will be sent to purgatory. In Hell sinners will be punished according to their deeds as I said above.
God doesn't care for our deeds, what we do is for our own souls. Since God is independent of his creation and has no needs and needs not self-immolate to forgive!
Just believing that Jesus died for us is not enough! The Bible says that not all that cry "Lord , Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven but those who DO THE WILL ON THE FATHER. Faith is dead without works God cares about deeds.
if that is the case why did your god abrogate his own laws through a charlatan to send the masses into confusion after self-immolating and unable to choose apostles that would shoulder the responsibility of carrying his message after his death, surely a god should know he'd best hand pick apostles that wouldn't forsake him collectively so he'd have to appear in shadow to his nemesis and then change his mind about what he previously made as law!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
And if there are things that you can't do, then that make you not all powerful, but we agree God God is all powerful, So I believe my explanation does a good job or keeping both of these true qualities of God in tact.
Your explanations are paradoxical as you admitted which makes them bad and is part of the problem as it reduces it down to irrational belief - you have no problem with something being all powerful but at the same time forgetful - you have no problem with all knowing but then at the same time not knowing the last hour - They are contradictory - just like the angels and normal men Jesus pbuh has the same knowledge on the last hour making him not all knowing unlike God or the father.
Mark 13:32
But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father
why make the distinction? are you going to give me more paradoxes.
Last edited by Zafran; 10-22-2010 at 05:34 AM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
How is mercy better then Justice? Justice sends us all to hell because none of us have fulfilled the Law. Mercy lets us live. That is how it is better. God loves us and sees our weakness, and chooses to let us live even though we have chosen death by sin.
as i said if God opened the Gates of hell God could close them the same way.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
and? its like me saying if somebody hurt me - "forget about it" - Can God be all knowing and forgetful at the same time? It is a paradox thats the problem - how can you keep something away from your counciousness? when you forget you cant control it - making you less aware, therefore not all knowing.
I think if you use the word forgive instead of forget, it seems to make more sense.
Who can know the mind of God, the same God who created you and gave you a faith through Islam, also created me and gave me a faith through Christianity. The same God hears all our prayers, we all strive to obey the laws of God, and we all fall short, none of us deserve salvation through our own efforts, we all need the forgiveness and mercy of God.
In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith tolerance and unnderstanding
Eric
You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.
May I (belatedly) remind the Muslims here that ridiculing other religions is against what our Prophet SAWW taught us?
"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best who have strayed from His Path and who receive guidance" (Qur'an, Surah Al-Nahl, Aayah 125)
actually, the holy spirit in Christian art is always portrayed as a bird! one of your gods is a bird! and why does he "betray God?" just stop right there. no further explanation called for!;
Every religion uses images - in Islam you have As-Sirat (The Bridge Over Hell) but I doubt Islam demands that any one really has to accept there are two places with an actual physical bridge connecting them do they? In your second point are you saying that you will only accept things you can understand?
Every religion uses images - in Islam you have As-Sirat (The Bridge Over Hell) but I doubt Islam demands that any one really has to accept there are two places with an actual physical bridge connecting them do they? In your second point are you saying that you will only accept things you can understand?
In the context you speak whether the siraat is literal or allegorical doesn't alter religious significance and it has nothing to do with the salvation of the soul . In your religion you accept god as a man, god as a bird, as a lion as a lamb, god as wrestling with david, god remorseful, god dying.. all of which are absurd because it betrays the concept of monotheism and the concept of immortality, the concept of infallibility. Now Whether the siraat even exists or not, it is really not an issue, we are not talking about the single article of faith upon which your entire religion stands.. and if I may add it stands on smoke and mirrors.
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
In the context you speak whether the siraat is literal or allegorical doesn't alter religious significance and it has nothing to do with the salvation of the soul . In your religion you accept god as a man, god as a bird, as a lion as a lamb, god as wrestling with david, god remorseful, god dying.. all of which are absurd because it betrays the concept of monotheism and the concept of immortality, the concept of infallibility. Now Whether the siraat even exists or not, it is really not an issue, we are not talking about the single article of faith upon which your entire religion stands.. and if I may add it stands on smoke and mirrors.
Let me respond in two parts. Firstly, Surah 19 Verse 71, could possibly be referring to the bridge. In that verse it says, "There is not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with your Lord, a decree which must be accomplished". But the prophet of Islam said "It is a slippery (bridge) on which there are clamps and (Hooks like) a thorny seed that is wide at one side and narrow at the other and has thorns with bent ends. Such a thorny seed is found in Najd and is called As-Sa'dan. Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, a strong wind, fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe without any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches, and some will fall down into Hell. The last person will cross by being dragged over the bridge." (Sahih Bukhari- Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532). All of which sound as if he meant it literally and if this indeed does in one way or another describe how to get into heaven I find it hard to understand why according to you it lacks 'significance"? But what is surprising in your argument is that you are quite happy to consider all this as literal or allegorical but when it comes to the Bible it seem you can only accept a literal reading - why, is this some kind of special pleading?
Let us consider one other point and I think you mean Jacob wrestling with God not David. Every Jew and Christian and I suspect every Muslim knows what it is like to wrestle with God. It is surely obvious that this is not literal and refers to those time in our lives when life itself overwhelms us, when circumstances seem to assault us so we doubt, despair, fear, blame God and wonder where God is or why he allows this or that event. It might be some tragedy in our lives, a loved one becomes ill, an earth quake kills thousand, we lose a job, someone rejects us and on. We can be fatalistic and just say inshalla but I thinks God was us to go beyond that and in any case where can we go in such times if it is not to God where we can pour out our hearts and sorrows to one who we know will listen and sustain and restore and strengthen our faith though we may never understand but can move on - in the Bible we find hundreds of cases like this from Abraham onwards.
Let me respond in two parts. Firstly, Surah 19 Verse 71, could possibly be referring to the bridge. In that verse it says, "There is not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with your Lord, a decree which must be accomplished". But the prophet of Islam said "It is a slippery (bridge) on which there are clamps and (Hooks like) a thorny seed that is wide at one side and narrow at the other and has thorns with bent ends. Such a thorny seed is found in Najd and is called As-Sa'dan. Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, a strong wind, fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe without any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches, and some will fall down into Hell. The last person will cross by being dragged over the bridge." (Sahih Bukhari- Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532). All of which sound as if he meant it literally and if this indeed does in one way or another describe how to get into heaven I find it hard to understand why according to you it lacks 'significance"? But what is surprising in your argument is that you are quite happy to consider all this as literal or allegorical but when it comes to the Bible it seem you can only accept a literal reading - why, is this some kind of special pleading?
Do you I understand you correctly when you say that I shouldn't accept a literal reading in Christianity, that Jesus isn't god? that he wasn't born to a woman, that he didn't suckle, excrement, pray to himself, forsake himself and die crucified by a couple of provincial oafs? if that is all allegorical then thanks for clarifying.. but what brand of Christianity do you subscribe to?
Let us consider one other point and I think you mean Jacob wrestling with God not David. Every Jew and Christian and I suspect every Muslim knows what it is like to wrestle with God. It is surely obvious that this is not literal and refers to those time in our lives when life itself overwhelms us, when circumstances seem to assault us so we doubt, despair, fear, blame God and wonder where God is or why he allows this or that event. It might be some tragedy in our lives, a loved one becomes ill, an earth quake kills thousand, we lose a job, someone rejects us and on. We can be fatalistic and just say inshalla but I thinks God was us to go beyond that and in any case where can we go in such times if it is not to God where we can pour out our hearts and sorrows to one who we know will listen and sustain and restore and strengthen our faith though we may never understand but can move on - in the Bible we find hundreds of cases like this from Abraham onwards.
that is voluminous loggerrhea that explains not nor detracts from what is written in the books to which you subscribe!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Do you I understand you correctly when you say that I shouldn't accept a literal reading in Christianity, that Jesus isn't god? that he wasn't born to a woman, that he didn't suckle, excrement, pray to himself, forsake himself and die crucified by a couple of provincial oafs? if that is all allegorical then thanks for clarifying.. but what brand of Christianity do you subscribe to?
Can you share your particular wisdom with us and explain the principle or principles as to how you can distinguish between what must be or should be taken literally and what should not? Perhaps you will further aid us by showing how those principles work by illustrating it from with the bridge over hell as in my earlier post.
that is voluminous loggerrhea that explains not nor detracts from what is written in the books to which you subscribe!
If I may speak personally for a moment. Recently two good friends died suddenly and within weeks of each other. Frankly, I found it hard to accept and wanted to blame God for it. I know in faith the they are in a better place but for me it was a real; struggle with God and that was what I was explaining in my post and how believers down the ages have wrestled with God over circumstances and events over which they have seemingly no control - but for you its just "voluminous loggerrhea" so please explain how you or Muslims deal with difficulties or tragedies as perhaps you find it easier?
Can you share your particular wisdom with us and explain the principle or principles as to how you can distinguish between what must be or should be taken literally and what should not? Perhaps you will further aid us by showing how those principles work by illustrating it from with the bridge over hell as in my earlier post.
You should try answering the previous questions before posing new ones!
If I may speak personally for a moment. Recently two good friends died suddenly and within weeks of each other. Frankly, I found it hard to accept and wanted to blame God for it. I know in faith the they are in a better place but for me it was a real; struggle with God and that was what I was explaining in my post and how believers down the ages have wrestled with God over circumstances and events over which they have seemingly no control - but for you its just "voluminous loggerrhea" so please explain how you or Muslims deal with difficulties or tragedies as perhaps you find it easier?
You should see a counselor!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
Quote
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Bookmarks