Greetings and peace be with you Roger,
Welcome to the forum, and thanks for sharing your story,
In the spirit of searching for the One God who hears all our prayers, despite our differences.
Eric
The Trinity Led Me to Islam
An Irish Dentist Embraces Islam
My name is Roger Hadden, and I am originally from Dungannon in Northern Ireland. I am a dentist currently working in England. I have lived in Northern Ireland and Scotland, and I am now based in England. I was raised as a Christian, and my parents are born-again Christians.
Although I was raised with the teachings of the Bible, I did not particularly adhere to its principles. I suppose I was like most British youth, in that I liked to have fun but maybe didn't know where the limits were set.
While I did not practice any religion, I always believed that there was a God. I was scientifically minded, but realized that acknowledging there was a Big Bang did not necessarily rule out the possibility of there being a God who controlled and planned this event.
We could not have come out of nothing, and we did not create ourselves, so we must have been created. I thought about God from time to time, but it never had a real impact on my heart. My first encounter with Islam I suppose was the media, but I tend not to judge people or things until I see or find out about them myself and hear both sides of the story.
When I went to university I met many Muslims. At that time we discussed religion a little, but I was not seriously thinking about becoming religious. My desires were too strong, so I just wanted to enjoy myself.
At that time, I knew that at some stage I would want to change my ways and become a Christian. I then would also want to find out about other religions and understand what makes people believe in them. When I was in final year at university, I made plans to reform myself and become as my parents, a "born-again Christian". So I started my research with reading the Bible.
The concept of the Trinity always bothered me, and it was my main aim to understand it. I remember as a child wanting to ask God for something. I was not sure whether to pray to God or to pray to Jesus. I decided to pray to God as I knew if He created everything, then He will hear me and help me.
I spoke to some ministers, and several attempts were made to explain the Trinity. None of them convinced me. I continued to read the Bible, searching for the truth.
Obviously I am not a scholar in the Christian religion but the Trinity issue bugged me. Why did the Old Testament prophets all pray to God and do righteous acts hoping for God's forgiveness? Who did Jesus pray to?
There was no mention of the Trinity in the Old Testament, and many argue none in the New Testament. I knew God did not change, so there was a problem somewhere. I spoke to my friends at University. Some were Sikhs, Catholics, atheists, and some were Muslims.
My conversion changed my life completely, and looking back I know I made the correct decision
When I found out that Islam commands the worship of One God, and not to make any partners with Him, I was very interested. I continued reading the Bible and Christian sources but also started reading some Islamic books.
I read that Muslims believe that God sent his message to mankind through different prophets since Adam the first man. All the prophets believed in only One God and they also believed that there was going to be a day of reckoning when everyone will be raised and judged.
I realized that this is what I believe, and what I thought the Bible was saying to me. I discussed things with my parents, and they were not too impressed. Within a couple of months by the grace of God I became a Muslim.
My conversion changed my life completely, and looking back, I know I made the correct decision, thank God. Instead of living my life in a selfish way pleasing my desires, I try now to help others and please my Lord. I have now been a Muslim for five years and I am still learning new and amazing things about the religion.
Every time I hear something "negative" about the religion, I get the issue explained to me and it turns out to be a very positive and beautiful thing. I am continuing to learn Arabic and the Quran.
In my career it has made me much more focused, and I now desire to do everything to my best ability. My friends at university are often surprised with regards to my change, especially relating to dentistry.
My parents believed I was brainwashed, and many of my friends thought, and still think, it is just a phase. As it has been over five years now, my parents know it is not just a phase.
I first told my parents that I was thinking of becoming a Muslim, and they told me that it was a "hate religion" and that I should not do it. We talked about it for a while, and as I was convinced, I was sure I had to do it. I did not want to be punished in the next life.
A few months later I took the best step and embraced Islam. The same day my Dad bought me a car, not as a conversion gift, rather, it was his kindness and it just happened to be on the same day.
Since university, I have always lived away from my parents but I try to visit them a couple of times a year. Overall though, I feel my relationship with my parents has improved, as I try to be good to them as God commands in the Quran.
I have moved on from university and lost contact with many of my friends, some I speak to now and again, but as with life, we keep moving on and old friends we see less of and new friends are made.
I am currently working as a dentist in the UK. I am working and doing a part time masters program. I am learning Arabic, and I regularly attend Islamic talks and seminars in order to increase my knowledge.
I am married to a very special lady and we have, by the grace of God a beautiful 1-year-
old boy named Ismael (Ishmael from the Bible). We are trying to improve as Muslims, and we would like to travel abroad to a Muslim country. Ideally we would both love to study Islam to a higher level, so we are looking for opportunities to fulfill this dream.
By Roger Hadden
Last edited by Tilmeez; 09-28-2010 at 06:00 AM.
Greetings and peace be with you Roger,
Welcome to the forum, and thanks for sharing your story,
In the spirit of searching for the One God who hears all our prayers, despite our differences.
Eric
So true. Never let a seed of doubt grow, if there is any doubt, question it, question people who would truly know about it more then yourself in regards to Islam (don't ask someone who mixes culture with Islam, because that's completly wrong, there is only 1 Islam and the message was sent for all of mankind). And in the end, trust me you'll find great enlightenment and realise how twisted blinded people have of this beautiful religion.Every time I hear something "negative" about the religion, I get the issue explained to me and it turns out to be a very positive and beautiful thing. I am continuing to learn Arabic and the Quran.
Brother Hadden, it's great to hear that you found the truth. congratulations.
If you want to study Arabic and Islam, then Syria may be right for you. A lot of foreigners study here. there are many arabic courses in Syria. the ones offered by Damascus University are a bit expensive, a 1 month course costs about 200 pounds (16000 Syrian pounds ) a month. there are 4 levels in this course (each 1 month long). Then there's the Arabic Course for non-arabic speakers Institute (commonly known as ma'had lil Ajaanib , which means Institute for non-Arabs). This institute offers 6 levels and each level lasts 2.5 months. the cost for each level is about 250 pounds (17500 Syrian pounds). This institute has many foreigners and it has a non-religious environment. Courses are mixed so men and women study together. The course standard is very good and they mainly focus on spoken Arabic.
A third option is Shaikh Ahmed Kaftaro institute (commonly known as jama' Abu Noor). It offers 6 levels, each lasting 2 months. EAch level costs approximately 80 pounds (5500 Syrian Pounds). The course standard is pretty good but they focus more on grammar and reading than on spoken arabic. Here the environment is more religious and classes are not mixed, so men and women study in separate classes. They also provide accomodation to students for very low cost, however their accomodation isn't for couples but they can help students find separate housing if anyone wants to live separately.
A fourth option is AlFatah institute. They also give 6 levels in Arabic study, each level lasting about 2.5 months. Each level costs 70 pounds (5000 Syrian Pounds) but their study standard is lower than the Abu Noor standard and they focus more on spoken, but do teach grammar as well. They also may exempt students from paying fees because their main aim is to prepare students for their college program.
Damascus university, Abu Noor, and Alfatah College all provide bachelor degree and masters degree courses in Islamic Studies, Arabic, etc. Abu Noor's rates are the lowest while Damascus university rates are the highest. Abu Noor charges approximately 250 pounds per year, Al Fatah college charges approximately 400 pounds for some courses and about 600 for other courses (30000 to 40000 Syrian Pounds), while Damascus university charges nearly 3000 pounds per year (200,000 Syrian Pounds), but their University is accredited and recognized all over the world. However, the university is mixed while the other two have separate colleges for men and women.
Living expenses in Syria are also low. A good apartment costs less than 300 pounds per month and household and electricity expenses are low. however, one needs to beware of cheaters, as there are landlords who try to make tenants pay very high electricity and phone bills, bills that aren't the tenants own. Since these bills are lower than what you'd pay in England and other more advanced countries, therefore tenants don't realize that there's a fraud. Another problem is that bills come nearly 4 months after the billing month so it's possible that you will be made to pay someone elses bill, or that you'll pay someone's winter bill in the summer if you aren't aware of this. Winter electricity bills are much higher than summer ones since you need to use heating to keep the house warm, because winters can get really cold. Most days in the summer you won't need an airconditioner, although the month of august can become really hot and an airconditioner will be required.
I hope the above information is helpful.
Last edited by Muhaba; 10-19-2010 at 07:20 PM.
That was a really beautiful story, Jazakallahu Khaayr for sharing it.
Masha`Allaah
Nice story ! jazaka Allaho Khayran.
Bro da32010, is that your personal reversion story ? or you're reporting another brother's story ?
Anyway, that was really beneficial. Baraka Allahu feek.
MashaAllah amazing story! Thanks for sharing
May Allah keep us all steadfast in the right path
Peace to all
thank you for sharing this story. n many ways it is the trinity that is keeping me on my path.... f searching at this point... i'm reading as much as i can..... sadly not enough hours in a day ... untl my laptop is repaired i can spend very little time on the board and that causes a very lonely feeling.
Serena
Mind If I take a crack at explianing the trinity to you?
Lets get something out of the way real quick, there is one God, he has no parts. Now on with my explaination.
Imagine that you are looking at a rock, This rock has a structure that is defined and made of stone. It exists in the most real and basic way. Plato would call this a "thing" Now as I asked you to imagine the rock, you have a picture in you mind (Or maybe you are looking a a rock right now, even better), and a full understanding of what a rock is, it's shape feel, smell, and taste even. Everything about the rock is summed up this image you see and understand. Plato would call this the "Sign". The sign owns it's existence to the existence of the thing, therefore the sign is dependent on the thing, even though it is the same item. If you are looking at the rock, I would ask you what you see, You could respond, that you see the rock(Thing) which is true in the sense that you have seen it by comprehending the thing of the the thing. However, as we know, when a human sees an item, they don't see it, but rather the light that comes from the object, betraying it's sign.
The Trinity is the same thing. The Father is the thing, the structure, and the existence, scripture calls him the great "I Am". The Son is the sign he is called the image of the invisible God, and is also called God's "Logos" He is the father's word and the fathers full representation, but nevertheless, he is said to be begotten, because even though he has always existed, his existence is dependent on the father's. Finally, there is the Holy spirit, he is the light by which a man can comprehend God, and He is how we see Jesus the "Logos" who is the father. Even as the light carries the image of the rock, the Holy Spirit proceeds form both the father and the son, and faithfully betrays God.
format_quote Originally Posted by da32010
Masha'Allah, such a heartwarming inspirational story.. May Allah swt guide you and keep you steadfast on the path of the righteous..
However in the trinity each name is a very separate person. This is not about a description of attributes it is about 3 seperate personalities each with it's own identity.format_quote Originally Posted by bibleblevr
Just for example The Role of the Father is essentially the creator and the destroyer. Not even the Son or the Holy Spirit know all of his intentions or plans. For example the Father alone knows when will occur the Day of Judgment. Not even the son knows when this will be.
You have three distinct unconnected beings.
i remember someone telling me it was like water, ice, and water vapor. so i told them that if you drank the water, then there wouldn't be ice or water vapor. likewise, if Jesus and God were one, then when Jesus died, God would also be dead, and so would the holy ghost. for one to be dead and the other to be alive means they aren't the same one being.
Christianity does not teach that the three parts have three separate personalities nor that they are unconnected beings, they are all God and there is only one God.format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
The day of judgment is more importantly the day when Christians believe the bride of Christ (The church) will be wed to her husband. In Jewish culture, the wedding time was only known by the father of the groom, when he decided the wedding would begin the groom would go to the brides house in the night, and without warning bring her and the others in the wedding party back to have the ceremony. The statement that Only the Father knows, is an illusion to Jewish wedding customs which Jesus often eluded to. We see another of his elutions, in one of the most famous of all Christian ceremonies, communion. The Jewish man would offer a woman a cup of wine instead of a ring like in western culture as a proposal. If the woman drank, then it was accepting the proposal, this is what he did at the last supper. Does Jesus know when the last days will be? Yes, but In the same way the psalms tells us God forces himself to forget our sins, Jesus can remain ignorance by force of will.
Seriously, do you guys have some sort of creative writing competition in church in "how to explain trinity in the most wordy and elaborate way"?
I mean, your story here is the latest folly attempt at explaining trinity.
You should move it to : http://www.islamicboard.com/creative-writing-art/
Maybe it will make more sense there.
format_quote Originally Posted by bibleblevr
Are you sure you understand Christianity?format_quote Originally Posted by bibleblevr
Do you not worship Jesus(as) with separate prayers and teach that the "Way to the Father, is through the Son"?
Do you not believe Jesus(as) is the only "Begotten Son of God(swt)?
Do you not believe Jesus(as) died and was resurrected? This alone separates Jesus(as) as a separate being from the Father as the Father is eternal and did not die.
What is taught in the "Apostles Creed"? (Using the Protestant Version)
Sure enough sounds like a separate Being. And that is after 7 centuries of refining the prayer from the second to 9th centuries to get it to appear to be more in line with the Trinity being one God(swt) The earlier versions were a bit more, shall we say separatistI believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
The Earliest known version is the Latin "Symbolum Apostolorum" Which at least 3 versions exist. Notice the lack of mentioning of the "Holy Ghost" The concept of trinity was still forming and Christianity was at a Dualism not quite being Trinitarian yet.
.THE OLD ROMAN CREED
AS QUOTED BY TERTULLIAN (c. 200)
De Virg. Vel., 1
(1) Believing in one God Almighty, maker of the world,
(2) and His Son, Jesus Christ,
(3) born of the Virgin Mary,
(4) crucified under Pontius Pilate,
(5) on the third day brought to life from the dead,
(6) received in heaven,
(7) sitting now at the right hand of the Father,
(8) will come to judge the living and the dead
(9) through resurrection of the flesh.
The teaching of a Trinity took a lot of creative writing over several Centuries. It was a hard concept to sell and rewrite to sound plausible.
But none of this precludes the oneness of God does it? One cannot explain of course how there can be one in three and three in one and we can only use analogies such as when I am at work I am person X when at home person Y and when ..... But my question to you is do you reject the trinity, lets call it a concept because you don't understand it or is there some other reason?format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
actually, the holy spirit in Christian art is always portrayed as a bird! one of your gods is a bird! and why does he "betray God?"format_quote Originally Posted by bibleblevrMind If I take a crack at explianing the trinity to you?
Lets get something out of the way real quick, there is one God, he has no parts. Now on with my explaination.
and YET, you will be explaining those "parts" below!
Imagine that you are looking at a rock, This rock has a structure that is defined and made of stone. It exists in the most real and basic way.
as rock is a rock! a rock is not God and God is not a rock!
Plato would call this a "thing" Now as I asked you to imagine the rock, you have a picture in you mind (Or maybe you are looking a a rock right now, even better), and a full understanding of what a rock is, it's shape feel, smell, and taste even. Everything about the rock is summed up this image you see and understand. Plato would call this the "Sign".
Plato was a Pagan! as such, he had NO IDEA as to how God operates. Philosophy is trying to guess whereas Revelation is God actually informing us! why do do prefer pagan concepts of God?
The sign owns it's existence to the existence of the thing, therefore the sign is dependent on the thing, even though it is the same item. If you are looking at the rock, I would ask you what you see, You could respond, that you see the rock(Thing) which is true in the sense that you have seen it by comprehending the thing of the the thing. However, as we know, when a human sees an item, they don't see it, but rather the light that comes from the object, betraying it's sign.
a rock is a rock, even charlie Brown knows that!
The Trinity is the same thing. The Father is the thing, the structure, and the existence, scripture calls him the great "I Am".
actually, your gospels said that Jesus said that about himself
The Son is the sign he is called the image of the invisible God, and is also called God's "Logos" He is the father's word and the fathers full representation, but nevertheless, he is said to be begotten, because even though he has always existed, his existence is dependent on the father's.
actually, the idea of "the logos" comes from pagan Philosophy. and a god that is dependent upon another god can only be a junior god or not even a god really. and IF you always have 2 or more gods, then you were NEVER monotheists.
Finally, there is the Holy spirit, he is the light by which a man can comprehend God, and He is how we see Jesus the "Logos" who is the father. Even as the light carries the image of the rock, the Holy Spirit proceeds form both the father and the son, and faithfully betrays God.
just stop right there. no further explanation called for!One cannot explain of course how there can be one in three and three in one
Peace
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
pagan religions often draw from pagan philosophies.. they can't be separated for the obvious reasons.
but I knew you asked that question in rhetoric..
nice so that leaves us with the other two, one lamb and one lion..format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
pagan religions often draw from pagan philosophies.. they can't be separated for the obvious reasons.
but I knew you asked that question in rhetoric..
nice so that leaves us with the other two, one lamb and one lion..
well, yes and no!
there is an ENORMOUS amount of Pagan philosophy that has entered not only into Christianity, but into Judaism and in some corners "what some folks call Islam." for my simple brain, IT MAKES NO SENSE WHAT SO EVER!
Philosophy, while having it's origin with learned men, in STILL men trying to "understand" things using tools that men acquire, such as "knowledge." men try to "decipher" morality and "goodness,"
WHY?
IF God has told you what He wants from you and expects from you, where does the guesswork come in? we KNOW exactly what God WANTED us to know and IF we haven't been told something, then we DON'T NEED to know it!
we see atheists sometimes ask the question, "can God create a stone too big for him to lift?" IMHO, the "Christian' response to that question, NOT the Islamic one, is...YES! Christians claim that Jesus was/is God and yet "he" NEVER explained this trinity in a way that anyone can understand it? OF COURSE there is no FACTUAL or CONTEMPORANEOUS evidence of a trinity in Jesus' teachings, but if it was suppose to be a belief, he simply failed here. there are writings in which the apostles call Jesus "teacher," well, how come he couldn't explain it. and if you try to tell m that "God" can't explain it...then it CAN'T be god now, can it?
i mean, i can't explain physics, does that make me a scientist? or better still, the "creator" of physics? OBVIOUSLY NOT, so why isn't the other obvious? [to "Christians"]
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
God's message to the people should be for lay and brilliant alike, not an exclusive club for a few Illuminati (not that a table of renowned theologians can break down this conundrum) and faith without thought is ludicrous. One is simply better off an atheist..
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