To start my first post, I wish to establish self awareness and say I’m sure most US, non-Muslim white people posting the first time are probably trolling in some fashion.
I can say the only thing I have that matters to me in this world is my 22yo son that just graduated from a Top U in Finance and may any god there is give him and I the worst sort of life imaginable if anything I write in not sincere and from the heart.
My firm belief is that you can’t go to any mosque today and truly learn about Islam. The spectrum of belief you’ll find there will range anywhere from Far Left teaching stuff like it’s ok to accept gays into the religion, all to way up the Far Right teaching you why you should join ISIS.
My contention is that the best thing one can do is throw this entire spectrum in the trash and just focus on what Islam actually says. So I’m here sincerely seeking out a high level intellectual debate on this. The parameters being that all knowledge in what any religion’s book says is very good but any and all emotion and faith, good or bad, should not factor into forming any opinion or viewpoint.
I’ll describe my “almost journey” to Islam. I had very bad parents growing up and had no religion, nor went to any church In college, some 20+ years ago, I had this dream “god” was in and he told me he would give me great wisdom in Islam and there’s this finger that goes in my head for it. I’m not claiming this was god, as it likely wasn’t completely random and was triggered by my subconscious. I was “lost” as typically one becomes and feels that yearning to a creator. But it was a powerful dream and the only dream in my life I can remember on the spot.
It was enough for me to research Islam and it was like Beethoven and a piano. It’s a passion nothing in my life will ever match. I spent thousands on books for Dar-us-salam (if still exists idk) and gobbled up everything I could for a little less than a year maybe. I’d like to say Allah guided me to Islam as it teaches but I stopped bc it became clear that the most I could reach was 75% Muslim and 25% agnostic (doubt).
It’s both an eternal curse and blessing. Curse bc I’ll never be a 100% believer but blessing bc the 75% allowed all the genuine truth/beauty in Islam get into my heart and mind and it will be there until I die. There’s no way I could’ve ever accepted any religion as it’s taught today and so that was the only way I’d find God and religion.
The 25% agnostic was a blessing bc it allowed me to reject any and all religious teachings on earth and see how they essentially blind and mislead people from understanding God and his religion.
To view religion objectively, the biggest “proof” of God is that yearning I mentioned. Tens of thousands of years have passed and with all the advances in our minds, the vast majority can’t shake that yearning. It’s also objectively true that almost no one changes their religion. They stick with what their parents or preacher teaches them. Only when a sheep gets lost from the herd and some shepherd of another religion guides them to their own herd, is when conversions occur.
That’s bc religion is blinding. If I’m a lost sheep and go into a mosque/church, the same process happens. They’ll welcome me and have me submit to God/Jesus. I’m welcomed liked family and there’s a love/warmth there I won’t find anywhere else. I get going there every day praying with them and feeling acceptance like nothing else. I see all the beautiful things happening there like charity drives, clinics, community outreach, touching sermons, teaching children about God. I constantly hear how much Allah/Jesus love me and this all becomes my truth. “This is the truth” and it fills that yearning I had. Now my religion is like my wife and it’s doesn’t matter if she’s 100lb overweight, ugly and with crooked, she’s the most beautiful girl in the world. This is my religious foundation and if I spend 30 years studying either religion, I will build a tower of knowledge that makes people in my religion admire me but the other other religions and outsiders will see my tower as worthless.
After 30 years of learning, you bring these religions into a room to debate who has the better god and religion. They will both immediately attach other’s religious foundations. The books, prophets, and histories where each religion can expose clear fault in the other. Neither side can really defend some these harsh attacks bc their foundation is based on truths that someone taught them and each side lacks any genuine truth to prevail in a debate. Both sides leave content w/their own religion, as they are happy with the heavy blows they landed on their opponent.
So it will be extremely offensive for a Christian or Muslim today to hear but my viewpoint that’s based on observable facts today, is that when I walk into a church, my opinion is if that person was born in Pakistan, I would find this same person in a mosque and vice versa.
What I can clearly see that happened to Islam, as an established prophecy backs, is that all knowledge became lost. Any person would have to admit Islam is in shambles today but every person also thinks they see it the “right way” and point blame to others. What I see that happened is knowledge became lost bc facts were passed down without any understanding.
The biggest example of this is what I think is one the most important facts of all in Islam to understand. That all of the prophets and their follows of the Bible were Muslims guided by Islam. So when one learns this today, it will warm a Muslims heart to learn Jesus and Moses were Muslims and they will teach it to someone else. But hardly anyone will say, “Wait a minute. This foundation I know of the 5 Pillars, Quran, and Sunnah that guide me and make me a Muslim for following them, none of earlier Prophets had these things. Mohammed left the cave and spent a long time in Mecca without these things. So how were all these people Muslims following Islam? If I tell a Jew that Moses and his followers were Muslims guided by Islam, he will laugh in my face and ask why I believe in such foolishness. So i need to understand this thing you are teaching me before I can accept it”.
To me, if I am to accept any religion like Christianity or Islam that tries to tell me their religion is a continuation of the God/Prophets of the Bible, I can’t accept this unless I’m able to learn what they’re teaching and be able to tie a string that clearly ties their Prophet/God to what I’ll find in the Bible. God can’t “change”. The God/Message and Path/Purpose of the Prophet and their followers can’t completely change.
So let’s objectively look at this and completely forget about Mohammed. He’s actually where everything goes wrong bc Christians hate him too much to see Islam for what it is, Muslims love him too much, and outsiders just add Islam as Mohammed’s religion. Let’s just f
I can say the only thing I have that matters to me in this world is my 22yo son that just graduated from a Top U in Finance and may any god there is give him and I the worst sort of life imaginable if anything I write in not sincere and from the heart.
My firm belief is that you can’t go to any mosque today and truly learn about Islam. The spectrum of belief you’ll find there will range anywhere from Far Left teaching stuff like it’s ok to accept gays into the religion, all to way up the Far Right teaching you why you should join ISIS.
My contention is that the best thing one can do is throw this entire spectrum in the trash and just focus on what Islam actually says. So I’m here sincerely seeking out a high level intellectual debate on this. The parameters being that all knowledge in what any religion’s book says is very good but any and all emotion and faith, good or bad, should not factor into forming any opinion or viewpoint.
I’ll describe my “almost journey” to Islam. I had very bad parents growing up and had no religion, nor went to any church In college, some 20+ years ago, I had this dream “god” was in and he told me he would give me great wisdom in Islam and there’s this finger that goes in my head for it. I’m not claiming this was god, as it likely wasn’t completely random and was triggered by my subconscious. I was “lost” as typically one becomes and feels that yearning to a creator. But it was a powerful dream and the only dream in my life I can remember on the spot.
It was enough for me to research Islam and it was like Beethoven and a piano. It’s a passion nothing in my life will ever match. I spent thousands on books for Dar-us-salam (if still exists idk) and gobbled up everything I could for a little less than a year maybe. I’d like to say Allah guided me to Islam as it teaches but I stopped bc it became clear that the most I could reach was 75% Muslim and 25% agnostic (doubt).
It’s both an eternal curse and blessing. Curse bc I’ll never be a 100% believer but blessing bc the 75% allowed all the genuine truth/beauty in Islam get into my heart and mind and it will be there until I die. There’s no way I could’ve ever accepted any religion as it’s taught today and so that was the only way I’d find God and religion.
The 25% agnostic was a blessing bc it allowed me to reject any and all religious teachings on earth and see how they essentially blind and mislead people from understanding God and his religion.
To view religion objectively, the biggest “proof” of God is that yearning I mentioned. Tens of thousands of years have passed and with all the advances in our minds, the vast majority can’t shake that yearning. It’s also objectively true that almost no one changes their religion. They stick with what their parents or preacher teaches them. Only when a sheep gets lost from the herd and some shepherd of another religion guides them to their own herd, is when conversions occur.
That’s bc religion is blinding. If I’m a lost sheep and go into a mosque/church, the same process happens. They’ll welcome me and have me submit to God/Jesus. I’m welcomed liked family and there’s a love/warmth there I won’t find anywhere else. I get going there every day praying with them and feeling acceptance like nothing else. I see all the beautiful things happening there like charity drives, clinics, community outreach, touching sermons, teaching children about God. I constantly hear how much Allah/Jesus love me and this all becomes my truth. “This is the truth” and it fills that yearning I had. Now my religion is like my wife and it’s doesn’t matter if she’s 100lb overweight, ugly and with crooked, she’s the most beautiful girl in the world. This is my religious foundation and if I spend 30 years studying either religion, I will build a tower of knowledge that makes people in my religion admire me but the other other religions and outsiders will see my tower as worthless.
After 30 years of learning, you bring these religions into a room to debate who has the better god and religion. They will both immediately attach other’s religious foundations. The books, prophets, and histories where each religion can expose clear fault in the other. Neither side can really defend some these harsh attacks bc their foundation is based on truths that someone taught them and each side lacks any genuine truth to prevail in a debate. Both sides leave content w/their own religion, as they are happy with the heavy blows they landed on their opponent.
So it will be extremely offensive for a Christian or Muslim today to hear but my viewpoint that’s based on observable facts today, is that when I walk into a church, my opinion is if that person was born in Pakistan, I would find this same person in a mosque and vice versa.
What I can clearly see that happened to Islam, as an established prophecy backs, is that all knowledge became lost. Any person would have to admit Islam is in shambles today but every person also thinks they see it the “right way” and point blame to others. What I see that happened is knowledge became lost bc facts were passed down without any understanding.
The biggest example of this is what I think is one the most important facts of all in Islam to understand. That all of the prophets and their follows of the Bible were Muslims guided by Islam. So when one learns this today, it will warm a Muslims heart to learn Jesus and Moses were Muslims and they will teach it to someone else. But hardly anyone will say, “Wait a minute. This foundation I know of the 5 Pillars, Quran, and Sunnah that guide me and make me a Muslim for following them, none of earlier Prophets had these things. Mohammed left the cave and spent a long time in Mecca without these things. So how were all these people Muslims following Islam? If I tell a Jew that Moses and his followers were Muslims guided by Islam, he will laugh in my face and ask why I believe in such foolishness. So i need to understand this thing you are teaching me before I can accept it”.
To me, if I am to accept any religion like Christianity or Islam that tries to tell me their religion is a continuation of the God/Prophets of the Bible, I can’t accept this unless I’m able to learn what they’re teaching and be able to tie a string that clearly ties their Prophet/God to what I’ll find in the Bible. God can’t “change”. The God/Message and Path/Purpose of the Prophet and their followers can’t completely change.
So let’s objectively look at this and completely forget about Mohammed. He’s actually where everything goes wrong bc Christians hate him too much to see Islam for what it is, Muslims love him too much, and outsiders just add Islam as Mohammed’s religion. Let’s just f
