Realized I prayed salah before the time

format_quote Originally Posted by Samiun

My point is, I just wanted to know if you can figure out when a sunset is happening, like if you are able to tell or not whether it is happening or not happening. That's it. Stop making it complicated. Can't you tell if it's Sunset when the Sun is setting just by looking at the Sea toward's the direction of the Sun? Or if you are in middle of town and you look up and start to see the sky turning reddish? Isn't that a sign of Sunset?

Yes, it's a *sign* of sunset, but it tells you nothing about when the sun actually sets. Arguably, it may well be because of atmospheric refraction that *no one* has ever actually seen the sun set.

If I am not mistaken you might be thinking the EXACT moment when a Sunset occurs, with the formula? Then I do not know how to use that. I just use what is visible to the eye.

I do not know what an Ephemeris is.

An ephemeris is a table of numbers, that allows you to calculate various astronomical events and the positions of the planet's and stars. To use it, you must have an accurate timepiece and a means of determining your exact position. Alternatively, you can use these tools to determine your position, rather than a star's position. Before GPS, these were the primary tools for mariners at sea and surveyors.

My own primary point is that, in the case of sunrise and sunset, "what is visible to the eye" is wrong.

And my question is, since "what is visible to the eye" is wrong, does Islam take this into account when determining prayer times? If not, doesn't Islam permit an inherent margin of error in determine these times?

If a margin of error is allowed, then why would the OP have to "make up" a prayer that wasn't made exactly on time?

You are correct, really. But Wikipedia is banned from being used as a source material for referencing in universities. Really, this is basic referencing.

Yeah, I know. But for purposes of these forums it's convenient. I certainly wouldn't use Wiki for a formal paper, but I haven't written a formal paper for 30 years. Besides, this post will be forgotten five minutes after you read it, so I see no point in spending a lot of time on it.

Let me just say you have an outstanding observation, however I won't answer any other question because we haven't resolve the issue of Sunset.

Can you just define what is a Sunset according to you(Maybe we should have done this first)

My definition of a Sunset, when the Sky turns Red and then transitions into darkness. If you are by the beach, you would see it slowly sink into the horizon until darkness engulf the scene. There, Simple? Just plain, simple, external observation.

The question I asked was fairly simple, can you see the Sunset or not(the process of a Sunset)? It's like asking whether you can see what the TV is projecting real or not but then someone comes in explaining that in actual fact the pixels are the ones generating the pictures.

Yes, it's a *sign* of sunset, but it tells you nothing about when the sun actually sets.

Ok let me try to understand your view. I asked you a simple question whether you can tell or not if a Sunset is occurring and you said it's difficult because you believe that you are the correct 100% without a doubt hypothesis tested proven scientist material.

So you can tell by the sign that the sun is setting and like normal people we call that a sunset BUT you believe that that's not actually a Sunset or that's not really one because the Sun actually already goes over the horizon and what we are seeing is refraction yes?

My own primary point is that, in the case of sunrise and sunset, "what is visible to the eye" is wrong.

Why the emphasis? Science always changes, you might think you could be right but then again you might be wrong later on.

Yeah, I know. But for purposes of these forums it's convenient. I certainly wouldn't use Wiki for a formal paper, but I haven't written a formal paper for 30 years. Besides, this post will be forgotten five minutes after you read it, so I see no point in spending a lot of time on it.

There's no going back, you have piqued my interest on Astronomy.

format_quote Originally Posted by Samiun

Can you just define what is a Sunset according to you(Maybe we should have done this first)

My definition of a Sunset, when the Sky turns Red and then transitions into darkness. If you are by the beach, you would see it slowly sink into the horizon until darkness engulf the scene. There, Simple? Just plain, simple, external observation.

The US Naval Observatory: "Sunrise and sunset conventionally refer to the times when the upper edge of the disk of the Sun is on the horizon. Atmospheric conditions are assumed to be average, and the location is in a level region on the Earth's surface."

By this definition, a prayer at sunset or sunrise must be performed *precisely* at the moment the sun's upper edge is on the horizon. Anything else is late or early, depending. Note, however, that to take refraction into account, you would have to begin the evening prayer when the sun's *bottom* edge is on the horizon; the timing of the morning prayer would always have to be a guess.

The question I asked was fairly simple, can you see the Sunset or not(the process of a Sunset)? It's like asking whether you can see what the TV is projecting real or not but then someone comes in explaining that in actual fact the pixels are the ones generating the pictures.

Simple question, complex answer. Think of it this way: When you are looking at the sunset, you are actually looking around a corner at something that has already passed by.

To demonstrate refraction, fill a clear glass with water and drop an unsharpened pencil into it, so that part of the pencil is above the surface. Examine from all sides, then answer the question, Where is that part of the pencil that is under water?

you can tell by the sign that the sun is setting and like normal people we call that a sunset BUT you believe that that's not actually a Sunset or that's not really one because the Sun actually already goes over the horizon and what we are seeing is refraction yes?

Yes.

Here's more from the USNO: "Accuracy of rise/set computations. The times of rise and set phenomena cannot be precisely computed, because, in practice, the actual times depend on unpredictable atmospheric conditions that affect the amount of refraction at the horizon. Thus, even under ideal conditions (e.g., a clear sky at sea) the times computed for rise or set may be in error by a minute or more. Local topography (e.g., mountains on the horizon) and the height of the observer can affect the times of rise or set even more. It is not practical to attempt to include such effects in routine rise/set computations."

Next paragraph:
"The accuracy of rise and set computations decreases at high latitudes. There, small variations in atmospheric refraction can change the time of rise or set by many minutes, since the Sun and Moon intersect the horizon at a very shallow angle. For the same reason, at high latitudes, the effects of observer height and local topography are magnified and can substantially change the times of the phenomena actually observed, or even whether the phenomena are observed to occur at all."

Even precise measurements, therefore, cannot tell you the exact times of sunset and sunrise.

Why the emphasis? Science always changes, you might think you could be right but then again you might be wrong later on.

First, I wasn't emphasizing, I was quoting.

You're right about science self-correcting as new facts come to light. However, it also gives answers according to what we know at the time, and requires evidence of error before changing those answers. If there is no evidence of error, especially where the current theory accounts for all known observations, there is no reason to question or alter the current theory.

There's no going back, you have piqued my interest on Astronomy.

Then my work here is done.

However, back to my questions. Since the timing of sunset and sunrise is so vague, why should the OP be worried about being precise? There are times when honest error can be catastrophic, but is this one of them?

BTW, I think my question is apt, since Islam is commonly credited with practicing and preserving the sciences, astronomy among them. I'm just curious whether and how Islam has kept up with progress in this particular field.

This still doesn't answer my question: Since the timing of sunset and sunrise is so vague, why should the OP be worried about being precise? There are times when honest error can be catastrophic, but is this one of them?

format_quote Originally Posted by jabeady

This still doesn't answer my question: Since the timing of sunset and sunrise is so vague, why should the OP be worried about being precise? There are times when honest error can be catastrophic, but is this one of them?

Well to answer your question. No one here is saying that the prayer should be right on the dot when it's time. Rather there is a time window within which things must be done. Anytime before or after that time window isn't exactly being diligent, is it?

While it's not end of the world, it is following the rules of and respecting the time given for that task. You showing up an hour late at work isn't end of the world but that isn't exactly what the agreed upon start time is. And if you were being paid hourly then that is an hour worth of income you loose. by the same token, not performing prayer within the time window given won't really get you the credit for it.

OK, your "time window" makes perfect sense. The way the conversation was going, I couldn't tell there was one. Thank you.