Asalaam alaikum Warahmatulah Wabarakatuh A challenge to those who reject the linguistic miracle of Qur'an:
Can you provide a meaningful sentence - in any language - which can be written in a Palindrome form? The above aayah/verse has 4 words in a Palindrome form, so the challenge for them is to beat that.
Some points to add to this that were mentioned in the seminar:
1) It was spoken and the one who spoke it was illiterate. It's pretty darn hard to come up with a palindrome when you sit down and work it out, yet it might be possible, but to speak it out of the blue -> you only get one shot at getting it right because what is being is said is memorized instantly and written down. You can't go back and modify it. Plus the speaker himself, the Messenger (saw), is illiterate so it's not like he could have sat down before hand and worked through it, he doesn't even know the letters! 2) It was recited together with the verses before and after it. I.e. it's right in the middle of a passage and the fact that the verse being a palindrome fits so well in the context of what's being said and doesn't take anything away from the coherency and meaning. 3) It was unknown at the time but discovered later by linguistic scholars who spent their time looking through the Qur'an for such aspects of linguistic excellence. It's not like the Prophet (saw) went around and said look, this verse has a palindrome nor did anyone else. It's just there.
“Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun
"It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl
“The sight turned not aside, nor it transgressed beyond the limit.” (Surah Najm 53:17)
This ayah is referring to the sight of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) during the ascension to the heavens, and the scholars say ”zaagha” means turning to the left and right. As for “wa ma taghaa“; this means he did look past what was in front of him.
The Messenger (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) had the best of manners in this high standing; he did not turn his eyes to the left or right, and he did not look to what was not permitted for him to look at and this is from the perfection of the character of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam).
Normally, you will find people looking around to their right and to their left when they enter a place that is strange to them, especially if this place is a great change from what they are used, such as in this regard (i.e., ascension into the heavens). A person will not be able to keep themselves from looking around to see what is happening but because of the perfection of the Prophet’s (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) character, manners, his calmness and self-control, he did not turn aside or transgress the limits.
A challenge to those who reject the linguistic miracle of Qur'an:
Can you provide a meaningful sentence - in any language - which can be written in a Palindrome form? The above aayah/verse has 4 words in a Palindrome form, so the challenge for them is to beat that.
How about these?
Some men interpret nine memos.
Delia sailed as sad Elias ailed.
Now do I repay a period won.
Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas.
No, it is open on one position.
Live not on evil's deeds, live not on evil.
Now, sir, a war is won!
All of those are meaningful palindromic sentences which follow the conventions of standard English usage. There are many other possible examples. Are they miraculous? Of course not.
All of those are meaningful palindromic sentences which follow the conventions of standard English usage. There are many other possible examples. Are they miraculous? Of course not.
Peace
There should be more to words than rhyme no?
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
All of those are meaningful palindromic sentences which follow the conventions of standard English usage. There are many other possible examples. Are they miraculous? Of course not.
Besides that, there's much more in the thread to support its miraculousness further. Especially when we consider that the one who gave us the Qur'an was an unlettered man who had no former experience in such a field.
Besides that, there's much more in the thread to support its miraculousness further. Especially when we consider that the one who gave us the Qur'an was an unlettered man who had no former experience in such a field.
You've issued a challenge and I've answered it. If you'd like to respond to my answer, go ahead.
a palindrome isn't an answer to the divine linguistic miracle of the Quran!
but I'll give you that, you are funny!
all the best
Why, thank you.
It was an answer to the challenge given by Qatada here:
format_quote Originally Posted by Qatada
A challenge to those who reject the linguistic miracle of Qur'an:
Can you provide a meaningful sentence - in any language - which can be written in a Palindrome form? The above aayah/verse has 4 words in a Palindrome form, so the challenge for them is to beat that.
The fact that I quoted this in my post may have been a clue.
Judging from the content of the thread, the standard for a "linguistic miracle" seems very low.
Judging from the content of the thread, the standard for a "linguistic miracle" seems very low.
Peace
Says one who is completely ignorant of the language the miracle is in! Forgive me if I don't take you seriously. In any case, you might want to refer to my previous post in this thread.
“Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun
"It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl
czgibson, how about if you take this into consideration too?
1) It was spoken and the one who spoke it was illiterate. It's pretty darn hard to come up with a palindrome when you sit down and work it out, yet it might be possible, but to speak it out of the blue -> you only get one shot at getting it right because what is being is said is memorized instantly and written down. You can't go back and modify it. Plus the speaker himself, the Messenger (saw), is illiterate so it's not like he could have sat down before hand and worked through it, he doesn't even know the letters!
2) It was recited together with the verses before and after it. I.e. it's right in the middle of a passage and the fact that the verse being a palindrome fits so well in the context of what's being said and doesn't take anything away from the coherency and meaning.
3) It was unknown at the time but discovered later by linguistic scholars who spent their time looking through the Qur'an for such aspects of linguistic excellence. It's not like the Prophet (saw) went around and said look, this verse has a palindrome nor did anyone else. It's just there.
It was an answer to the challenge given by Qatada here:
The fact that I quoted this in my post may have been a clue.
Judging from the content of the thread, the standard for a "linguistic miracle" seems very low.
Peace
The 'challenge' that Br. Qatada asked for isn't the conventional challenge of the Quran, nonetheless what you have provided makes no sense under any circumstance as there is more to the challenge than merely putting words together in a grammatical shift of mere rhetoric. It needs to be meaningful.. where is the pictorial element? the word choice of precision and subtlety, where is the humor, satire and irony? where is the word play and ambiguity, where is the narrative, the dramatic dialogue, the characterization, where is the transcendence and the engagement and constant relation to the reader? most importantly where is the the inimitability?
the standards are low because you like to bring things down to a low common denominator as it is easier for both your psyche and I imagine lifestyle.
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Says one who is completely ignorant of the language the miracle is in! Forgive me if I don't take you seriously.
Right on time - the last line of defence arrives.
The Qur'an has a long passage of rhyming; it contains a palindrome. Why would anyone consider these things to be miracles? They can and have been done in many languages.
In any case, you might want to refer to my previous post in this thread.
I already have, and Alpha Dude has quoted you as well. I don't see how any of it is relevant to Qatada's challenge to produce a palindrome of more than four words in any language.
Be it what it is, it still stands true. To pass judgment (arrogantly) on something you don't know just begs such a response. Just as I wouldn't take a medical opinion from other than a medical doctor, I really don't see why I should take your opinion on a subject when I know you don't know what you're talking about?
The Qur'an has a long passage of rhyming; it contains a palindrome. Why would anyone consider these things to be miracles? They can and have been done in many languages.
I doubt that considering the historical context given in my post.
I already have, and Alpha Dude has quoted you as well. I don't see how any of it is relevant to Qatada's challenge to produce a palindrome of more than four words in any language.
Peace
It's called historical context?
“Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun
"It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl
Did Qatada specify that these contextual matters must apply to anyone answering his challenge?
Peace
I would assume anyone can understand what's being said? If the pretense is regarding something historical, then it only follows the context remains the same!
Now that you know the historical context, how about you respond to it and make my time responding to you worthwhile?
“Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun
"It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl
I would assume anyone can understand what's being said? If the pretense is regarding something historical, then it only follows the context remains the same!
I don't understand what you mean here.
Now that you know the historical context, how about you respond to it and make my time responding to you worthwhile?
Your time is yours to spend as you please.
None of what you've mentioned (all of which I was aware of before reading your post) is relevant to Qatada's challenge. I don't see why you think changing the goalposts at this stage is of any benefit to anyone.
None of what you've mentioned (all of which I was aware of before reading your post) is relevant to Qatada's challenge. I don't see why you think changing the goalposts at this stage is of any benefit to anyone.
Peace
So I'm to understand I won't be getting a response from you for that particular example? No surprise there.
Btw, there are 15 other examples provided by Qatada. I suggest you busy yourself with them, at the very least to dissect them from a linguistic perspective and show us exactly why as you said:
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Judging from the content of the thread, the standard for a "linguistic miracle" seems very low.
Until then we'll be waiting. Good luck.
“Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun
"It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl
czgibson, I admit my challenge wasn't set out specifically, so I can figure where you're coming from. However, even if one was to answer it, it still wouldn't defeat the original challenge set in the Qur'an of bringing one Surah [roughly translated as chapter] like it.
For example, listen to this recitation of this along with the meaning, and try to come up with something similar to it.
Remember, anything similar to it covers a wide array of subjects:
Literary structures are composed of many elements that are too numerous to be discussed in detail in this article. They include diction, phonology, rhetoric, composition, morphology, syntax, architecture, rhythm, and style, in addition to matters related to tone, voice, orality, imagery, symbolism, allegory, genre, point of view, intertexuality, intratextual resonance, and other literary aspects – all of which are set within a historical, cultural, intellectual, and psychological context.These elements combine with each other in the Qur’an in myriad ways that produce the Qur’an’s unique character.
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