I have a question about Quran?

Hmmm... For some reason I cannot edit my post so I apologize for the typos

format_quote Originally Posted by DirtyLeo

but in practice it does.

This should read: but in practice it is not.

format_quote Originally Posted by DirtyLeo

There's not end to maybes.

This should read: There's no end to maybes

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor

when did you have the child you claim as an offspring dna tested?

If someone needed a scientific proof about it, for instance in a court case, that could be done easily, with scientific methods.

format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless

Isn't this a contradiction? You say science may not have all the answers but you do not believe things which cannot be scientifically proven. Therefore you reject things which maybe true but cannot be explained. Science is only a description of what may or may not hold to be true. It is not itself a truth.

Nope! This is not a contradiction. I refuse to believe in the existence of Unicorns or Leprechauns because there is no scientific proof that they exist. However there are many things that we scientifically experience that haven't had a scientific explanation yet (I keep using the example of origin of life because this is the one usually used in religious discussions). Science hasn't fully explained it yet (even though there are many things that's come close) but I know that there's life around me, it is scientifically proven that there's life, but it's origin is yet to be explained fully.

Just like if there is a scientific evidence for a supernatural creator tomorrow, I'll believe in the existence of this creator regardless if science can explain its origins.

format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless

I don't see the theory of everything popping up with no purpose or creator to be a rational stance, you may think different but that's your choice. People who are Muslim have all the proof they need to believe, they don't need you to give us pointers on what is or is not considered correct... especially in a thread which is on a completely different topic.

One doesn't need a proof to have 'faith', that's the tricky thing with it. But a rational mind should need proof.

I apologize if I caused this thread to drift to something else. I just reacted to an earlier post that claims everything in Quran can be scientifically proven, which is totally wrong.

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor

so, all this time you have believed this child is your progeny without EVER seeing ANY scientific PROOF for it?

really?

so....how could that happen? you used logic and reason?

this...child, does he love you? do you love him?

I slept with my wife to make a baby. We learnt that she was pregnant a few weeks later. If she cheated on me, my son may not be my biological son. But there's a baby at home. I can scientifically prove the existence of the baby at home. My wife is his mother and it's very likely that I am the father. In the very unlikely event that I am not, I'm certain he has a father because making a baby requires a sperm.

It is not the same with God, though. Even if you love him, you feel his presence you cannot prove its existence. When one believes in a creator, one dishes out all logic and believes in an unexplained supernatural power that leaves no scientific evidence what so ever.

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor

you still haven't answered my question as to WHY you could have believed the child is yours without proof. you have given reasons to why without it, but not with it.

I have no reason to doubt my wife. We made a baby and he's mine.

But if you came to me and said "I'm the father of your child" in a court then you'd have your proof without problem because we are still talking about scientifically provable things.

Your analogy may have held true if we had evidence for a creator but we didn't know if it was Allah or Yahwe or Zeus. Then you chould have said "I don't care, I consider it mine, it's Allah"

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor

does your wife love you?

do you love her?

do you love the child that you believe is your progeny?

does the universe exist?

if a baby requires sperm to be created, what is required for the universe to be created?

All those questions can be answered scientifically because we are talking about scientifically proven beings: my wife, myself, my son, universe, sperm etc. If science lacks an explanation, for example if someone had a one-in-a-million-seen illness, it will probably have an explanation in the future because we are still talking about a scientifically proven illness.

If you're trying to draw similarities of an unanswered question with the lack of evidence in favour of a creator or djinns or angels, this is not working. Science doesn't have to answer about the existence of imaginary things. There's no end to imagination. Because we are not arguing about the origin of a proven creator, we are arguing about the proof that the djinns (or angels, or Allah) exist.

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor

we must figure out where we can agree in order to move on

btw, show me the scientific proof that your wife loves you.

She puts up with me . And many things like we are good friends, we enjoy many things together, we decided to have a child together etc. The usual things that people in love do.

Of course, love is a subjective thing and may mean different things to different people.

Love for my parents is not exactly the same as my love towards my son or my wife or a good friend or your love for Islam or Allah. They represent different things.

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor

what was required for the universe to come into existence?

I apologize because I'm going to repeat myself. Science never claims that it has all the answers. But it is getting more and more of those.

Now, before you go into a "A-ha" moment, obviously this applies to scientifically provable things. We're still talking about our universe, which is around us.

The origin of life is up there with the origin of our universe and cure for cancer. Science will get to there eventually. A lot of people are working on them. But all these things have scientific evidences. God, Allah, jinns, angels don't.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow

Philosophically true. Just like "there's not absolute truth" but in practice it does. Our justice system is a good example of that. You have to prove someone guilty of something to convict him. There's a lack of evidence that you committed a crime but it doesn't mean that you haven't so I'll lock you up. I hope you see that it's a false reasoning.

I do agree that it is our burden to prove the Existence of Allaah(swt) However, what I accept as evidence most likely is not acceptable as evidence to you. The difficulty here is that by the nature of what we believe Allaah(swt) to be transcends the physical world. So here we are at a bit of a quandary. For if Allaah(swt) could be measured, qualified and quantified He would not have the Attributes of what we believe Allaah(swt) to have. The only option is for us to convince you our reasons for believing in Allaah(swt) is true. Or for you to prove to us that all we believe Allaah(swt) to have done, was done by a scientifically provable method. A difficult if not impossible task for both of us.



This is speculation. This may or may not be. For that matter, it may be that Odin created the universe or Zeus. There's not end to maybes.

Simple agreement is valid here. The reason we have to believe that the only true God is Allaah(swt) is because we believe he has revealed himself and has told us so. A statement you do not agree with. No proof in either direction, just maybe's on both our parts.



There we agree.

History tells us that humanity have assigned divine meaning to various unexplained things. But we now know that a comet is not a miraculous sign from a god or an eclipse doesn't mean that a god is angry with us. Science has been good and relentless at discovering these scientifically experienced unknowns that humanity didn't have a scientific explanation at the time. It's just a matter of time we know, for instance, the truth behind the first living organism, like abiogenesis.

True and discoveries are found all the time. At the moment you have no reason to accept Divine revelation as a fact. Neither you nor I know what will be acceptable fact in the future. At the moment we who accept Divine revelation as fact do so with a conviction equally strong as your conviction that divine revelation is not a fact. To a certain extent we both find ourselves basing at least some of our beliefs on faith alone.

With all due respect, this is not a draw, merely a disagreement.

I respect your beliefs and your right to believe, of course, otherwise I wouldn't be learning about them and reading Quran in the first place. And I enjoy level-headed and respectful discussions because this exposes me to other viewpoints and to learning more, which is always challenging.

But you're reducing science to a belief system, which is absurd. Absurd in the world we live in. Opening the door to the acceptance of a supernatural creator opens the door to the acceptance of anything (and I'm not using anything lightly). Then, any of your claims would carry the same amount of weight as believing that golden tablets are really given to Joseph Smith by an angel.

Thankfully scientific evidences prevent us to fall in that chaos.

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor

so, you DO believe that life HAD an origin?

Of course, how else we would be here?

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor

if a baby has "requirements" to come into being, is it safe to assume that the "origins of life" require an "Originator of that life?"

Yes but not a supernatural one. That's why we have Abiogenesis.

Regarding all the love-stuff that you mention:

Love is an emotion and you can come up with repeatable tests to measure it.
It is scientifically proven that many hormones in the brain are involved in making feel "in love": oxytocin, vasopressin, testosterone, estrogen. You can measure level of these chemicals in the body to prove if someone is in love.
You can study people using MRI scans. Scientists know that certain areas and brain activity is involved in feeling love.
And you can repeat these things on animals: injecting hormones to a lab animal causes for it to look for pair-bonding and to become aggressive towards other males etc.

No need to pick love in particular. Our emotions are products of our brains. There's nothing but biological equipment in this body of ours. All the emotions are produced by our brains because they favoured or they have favoured our survival during our evolution. And all this is measurable by scientific methods. There's no scientific evidence about the concept of spirit that religions want us to believe either.

format_quote Originally Posted by DirtyLeo

Of course, how else we would be here?

Do you know why you are here?
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you. I totally believe there is a reason behind every action.
The creation of the universe, the animals, the atmosphere, the surroundings, all these have reasons.
You, me and everyone in this world will not survive for long. But, why? Why do we die when this world is entirely made for us? Because this life is temporary.

Have you ever had situations, when you feel like there's no way out? Didn't you plede to anyone to help you. Oh, and you were helped. By whom? Your mom, dad, friend or wife? But did you really plede to them?
YOU PLEDED TO GOD.
And God helped you through them.

For earning a DOCTOR title, one have to study half their life. Whoops, not study, go through TESTS. And after that many trials, you will finally be a doctor.

Similarly, life is also a test. A TEST BY GOD.
That's why this world has so many ups and downs. If we were to life forever, will there be poverty, crime, dieseases, AND MOST OF ALL, DEATH?!
All these are tests by God.

If you are so RATIONAL, why haven't you put up the thought of your existance?

format_quote Originally Posted by

Of course they existed. Maybe they hadn't seen them but they were getting sick, getting infections etc. So microbes had direct scientifically proven effects on people's lives.

This is what I quoted you:

format_quote Originally Posted by

Well... If they cannot be proven scientifically, with scientific methods than they don't exist.

atoms and microbes could not be proven scientifically 1,000 years ago, ergo, they did not exist.

Tell me, which part of it that is incorrect?

You mention people got sick, diarrea 1,000 years ago, but they did not think it was caused by microbes.

format_quote Originally Posted by

I am a living being. I eat, I go to toilet, I procreate (I have a son). I have a social security number and a passport. Where are you going with this?

So you want me to believe you exist just because you say so?

using your standards, this is laughabe.
where are you? I cannot see you?
For all i know, you could be some computer programs written by bored scientists at MIT lab.

Prove to me that you really exist.
oh, picture or video wouldnt do either because it is just easy to manufacture picture and video.

How do I know you exist?

format_quote Originally Posted by peace_maker

Do you know why you are here?

Of course. My parents had sex and I was born. As all living beings that's why I came to exist.

format_quote Originally Posted by peace_maker

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you. I totally believe there is a reason behind every action.

Of course we don't have to agree. That's the beauty of a discussion or a debate.

format_quote Originally Posted by peace_maker

The creation of the universe, the animals, the atmosphere, the surroundings, all these have reasons.

I've already mentioned that in an earlier post. Attaching reasons to things is a human trait, which is clearly visible in children.

format_quote Originally Posted by peace_maker

You, me and everyone in this world will not survive for long. But, why?

Because our cells decay. The oxygen that gives us life is also burning us slowly.

format_quote Originally Posted by peace_maker

Why do we die when this world is entirely made for us? Because this life is temporary.

Now... I have the same problem with this statement from two different angles: religious and ecological.

This world is NOT made for us. It does NOT belong to us more that it belongs to the bird on the tree or the frog in the pond. We are living beings just like any other living being. The fact that we acquired conscienceness through evolution doesn't entitle us to see the resources of this world at our disposition.

And this is so arrogant. Typical human thinking! We think we are the center of the universe and the things around us are created for us and they are ours to use and abuse. That's one of the best signs that religions are human-made creations.

format_quote Originally Posted by peace_maker

Have you ever had situations, when you feel like there's no way out? Didn't you plede to anyone to help you. Oh, and you were helped. By whom? Your mom, dad, friend or wife? But did you really plede to them?
YOU PLEDED TO GOD.
And God helped you through them.

You're asking this question to the wrong person . I know many more people who pray for things that they never get. Even when you're religious you can see that most prayers are left unanswered. There has been scientific studies on them (most of them organized by religious organizations). There's no scientific evidence what so ever of their power.

But science knows the effect of placebo. So if one believes s/he's going to get better, there's a higher chance that it happens. Giving patients placebo instead of real medicine is shown to have the same effect. We are conditioning our brain to act on our body.

However, funny enough, in another study, they grouped surgery patients into three groups.
1) People prayed for them and the patients knew about it
2) People prayed for them and the patients didn't know about it
3) Nobody prayed for them

Naturally, group 2 and 3 had similar results: praying or not praying didn't change the success of surgery, recovery etc. The strange thing happened with group 1. They did worse, probably because they knew they were prayed for and they thought they were in trouble. A good example of the power of our brain.

Basically, by praying to a supernatural power, you are asking it to bend the rules of the universe for you, and most of the time, at the expense of another person. Your doctor and test example is very good for that. 500 people go through the test only 50 succeeds. But everyone of them prays. Do you see the absurdity of the situation?

When something good comes out of a situation, you thank God for it. But when something bad happens it's not God's fault.

There's an accident. The survivors' families thank God all day long but the victims' families never curse the God for it. Abrahamic religions has even lost this honesty and become totally hypocritical. At least, in earlier belief systems, such as ancient Greek, people thanked their gods as much as they cursed them. Now, if something good happens, it is thanks to God, if it's something bad, it's either a "natural phenomenon" or it's "man"'s fault.

format_quote Originally Posted by peace_maker

For earning a DOCTOR title, one have to study half their life. Whoops, not study, go through TESTS. And after that many trials, you will finally be a doctor.

Similarly, life is also a test. A TEST BY GOD.
That's why this world has so many ups and downs. If we were to life forever, will there be poverty, crime, dieseases, AND MOST OF ALL, DEATH?!
All these are tests by God.

Without realizing, you're highlighting one of the paradox of modern religions:
- God is all-knowing, all-powerful.
- God sent us here for a test/trial.
- If you combine the first two, you can deduce that God already knows the result of this trial, because he's "all-knowing". In this case, this test is useless because he already know who's good, who's bad, who's going to do what exactly, who's an atheist etc.

format_quote Originally Posted by peace_maker

If you are so RATIONAL, why haven't you put up the thought of your existance?

This is wishful thinking, the basic human fear of death. "There has to be a reason! This cannot be just it! There has to be something afterwards!" People believe in what they want to believe, unfortunately. Because, in this case, it is comforting. It is comforting to think that our loved ones are not really dead, we are not going to die etc. etc.

I know that I have one shot at a life. I'm so lucky to be the one I am as any other one of the millions of sperms would give birth to a different person. I enjoy life, I have a family, I pass my genes to the next generations and I'm going to die one day. My molecules will go back to this ecosystem and my genes (at least some part) will survive within my descendants. Sorry to break the bad news, we don't have a better reason to be here than the bird on the wire outside.

Life is great as it is! I don't need hope or comfort of an imaginary afterlife to enjoy it.

I know there are other posts that I'd like to respond but I gotta run. I'll post a reply as soon as I can...

format_quote Originally Posted by DirtyLeo

Of course. My parents had sex and I was born. As all living beings that's why I came to exist.

I asked, "why you are here?" not "how you are here?"
I want to know the purpose of your life.

format_quote Originally Posted by DirtyLeo

I've already mentioned that in an earlier post. Attaching reasons to things is a human trait, which is clearly visible in children.

You know a lot about science. Don't you know that CHILDREN ARE IMMATURE? They gain maturity at a certain age.
You wouldn't jump off the cliff if your son insisted on seeing you do the stunt from the movie. So, why hang onto this?

format_quote Originally Posted by DirtyLeo

Because our cells decay. The oxygen that gives us life is also burning us slowly.

Is that the best you can come up with? I'm gonna stick to the question, what is the core reason for death?

format_quote Originally Posted by DirtyLeo

Now... I have the same problem with this statement from two different angles: religious and ecological.

This world is NOT made for us. It does NOT belong to us more that it belongs to the bird on the tree or the frog in the pond. We are living beings just like any other living being. The fact that we acquired conscienceness through evolution doesn't entitle us to see the resources of this world at our disposition.

Who are dominating the world? Science tells us that humans are the most intelligent species in the world, not the birds who die by accidently hitting on the glass window.

The world is made for all, plants and animals both. But, mostly it's made for us and all the things around us are for our needs.
If this world is equally made for all the living things, then why do you kill and eat them? Chicken? Why can't you just let it enjoy it's life? They have rights on this world too.

format_quote Originally Posted by DirtyLeo

And this is so arrogant. Typical human thinking! We think we are the center of the universe and the things around us are created for us and they are ours to use and abuse. That's one of the best signs that religions are human-made creations.

TYPICAL HUMAN THINKING?! Hello? I am a human, how else do ya want me to think? You may be a science geek but, firstly and most importanly, you are a human too, unless you are a computer program. :P

format_quote Originally Posted by DirtyLeo

You're asking this question to the wrong person .

So, you've never prayed? Wierd...

format_quote Originally Posted by DirtyLeo

I know many more people who pray for things that they never get. Even when you're religious you can see that most prayers are left unanswered. There has been scientific studies on them (most of them organized by religious organizations). There's no scientific evidence what so ever of their power.

But science knows the effect of placebo. So if one believes s/he's going to get better, there's a higher chance that it happens. Giving patients placebo instead of real medicine is shown to have the same effect. We are conditioning our brain to act on our body.

However, funny enough, in another study, they grouped surgery patients into three groups.
1) People prayed for them and the patients knew about it
2) People prayed for them and the patients didn't know about it
3) Nobody prayed for them

Naturally, group 2 and 3 had similar results: praying or not praying didn't change the success of surgery, recovery etc. The strange thing happened with group 1. They did worse, probably because they knew they were prayed for and they thought they were in trouble. A good example of the power of our brain.

Basically, by praying to a supernatural power, you are asking it to bend the rules of the universe for you, and most of the time, at the expense of another person. Your doctor and test example is very good for that. 500 people go through the test only 50 succeeds. But everyone of them prays. Do you see the absurdity of the situation?

If God fulfils everyone's prayers, then there won't be any ups and downs. Duh, it'd be like heaven. Where do you think the TRIALS fit in?
And God knows what's best for us.

format_quote Originally Posted by DirtyLeo

When something good comes out of a situation, you thank God for it. But when something bad happens it's not God's fault.


There's an accident. The survivors' families thank God all day long but the victims' families never curse the God for it. Abrahamic religions has even lost this honesty and become totally hypocritical. At least, in earlier belief systems, such as ancient Greek, people thanked their gods as much as they cursed them. Now, if something good happens, it is thanks to God, if it's something bad, it's either a "natural phenomenon" or it's "man"'s fault.

Allah clearly says in the Holy Quran, everything good to you is from me and everything bad is from Satan.
Truly, Satan pushes us to do wrong, but we must hold ourselves strong.

format_quote Originally Posted by DirtyLeo

Without realizing, you're highlighting one of the paradox of modern religions:
- God is all-knowing, all-powerful.
- God sent us here for a test/trial.
- If you combine the first two, you can deduce that God already knows the result of this trial, because he's "all-knowing". In this case, this test is useless because he already know who's good, who's bad, who's going to do what exactly, who's an atheist etc.

Hmm... Good question. I'll put forward an example.
There is a hall, exams are going on. The teacher knows every one of her students clearly. She knows that the first two benchers would ace the paper with A+. And the last ones, expert cheaters. They would pass with average scores by cheating but, she has taught them for two years, she know exactly their tactics. So, failing it is. She knows the center seated ones, average.
She knows exactly about everyone. So, why conduct tests in the first place?
She could've just taken their papers and decided their marks herself, isn't it?
But what would happen if she did that? Won't the students raise questions? They would blame her for judging them herself. They would demand proof.
She would immeditely pull out the records of their previous exams. But they would refuse, they'd say they've really studied well this time.

God could've just jugded us all and send us to either Heaven or Hell. But, we would demand proof, this is the proof, this world. Everything we do here is recorded. Now, can we speak a single word against God with such an evidence?

Am just curious, after your death, how do you want to be burried or whatever?



I'm on the go right now so, I'll get to the other half tomorrow.