Creation arguments vs. evolution arguments?

root said:
Correct, and one would argue that to beleive in a Religous Creationist view. And I do intently state "Religous Creationist" being the possibility of a big pink elephant on the moon. it's a paradox you cannot escape because everything you say is abscent of proof. I tend not to judge two sides by their "Hits". But by their misses.
I can give very strong arguments about the existence of a Divine Creator simply because of the existnce of Creation. You would probably respond by saying, "well that doesn't prove God exists. That could have come about by random chance." And its true, it could have, just like there could be your big pink elephant. So yes there will always be alternate possibilities, but at least theists have evidence.

You are correct, and Religion plays this role and is very good at it too. The only problem of course is that Science is uniformal in it's position on Death for example. Where as religion has many a story to tell and not one being the same, that places you in a terrible position that your very beleif (Islam) may actually be wrong when other religions will directly engage over "the Afterlife".
There's a problem with the way you are referring to "religion". You are using the term to refer to the collective groups of various religious views/beliefs. Before doing that you would have to evaluate which is a valid religion.

Science is the only body to be uniformed in it's agreement over such issues............
When you say "science" are you really referring to "scientists"?

What do you mean by saying that they're agreed on death? Specifically what about death are you referring to?

You would debate the real events where Science does not support the case, the only thing uniformal in religion is that you all state that you are the only true religion.
Just as many scientists believe a specific theory to be true. The only difference is the belief is not as passionate because religion affects us much more deeply than science.

Stranger still, that is Geographically related to where one was born and born under a set religion.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Children aren't born Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, etc. based on where they were born.

Your getting desperate...
No, I'm just trying to understand your points. I'm not trying to prove anything at this point in the game.
Light is the cause fot the pain stimuli,
Okay, I see.
I take it because you are muslim you will be absent of the sensation one suffers the next morning after a few too many pints!
You're right, I wouldn't know about that.

Nah, but i have read about the physical restrictions of organic matter and the restrictions applied to it and the power that "cilicone" brings to break through the restrictions of physical matter and cary out super human mathmatical wonders. I am not defeatest the same way you have implied by proceeding to explain our "Limited" understanding. Why can't you think outside the box....
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Hopefully you could elaborate. The limited understanding was a reference to the fact that "religion" (depends what you mean by the word of course) does not claim to know everything.

That is very specific. Please see above where I speak about "Hit's and misses"
Okay, so how does "hits and misses" relate the non-existence of God to the falling of a rock?

Your correct, some would say we are indeed created by intelligent design. Please don't make the mistake that they mean the "Allah" you talk about and that you claim as the Koran & the Bible as proof.
Well I would certainly enjoy discussing with these people their notion of the Creator. I think many people find that Allah is not as different from their concept of God as they imagined. I'm not concerned with what they call their God, only that there is a belief in the One Supreme Being who created the Universe. From there we can move on to talk about what that being requires of us.

I agree, and brought about by the fact that Science is on a learning curve. Where as Religion beleives it has all the answers.
Again, I would like to know what you mean when you use the term "religion" as used in the sense above.

But you are correct that both fields obtain data through different methodologies. Science obtains Data through observations and experimentations, while religion obtains Data through revelation, after ascertaining that revelation to be valid. Both are related through the laws of logic.

Only problem is, the answer you get depends on which religion you ask which is a place of ridicule if you ask me.
Is it a place of ridicule for science when I get a different answer from different scientists?


Perhaps you would like to show me evidence of the invisible pink Unicorn?
I don't think I need to. The Unicorn may or may not exist, but seeing as it has no effect on me, I am not concerned with it. However, I am certainly open to the possibility of its existence.

:w:
 
Hi root, nice to hear from you, welcome back. Although your absence has been noticed, I'm glad to see, you provided me with a lot of stuff to discuss, so lets get right to it ;)

Regarding the arguments you brought fourth about the evolution of the eye:
Nonetheless you’d have to agmit that several changes in structures, al due to a mutation in DNA had to have occured simultanious wright? Well that’s just it, it doesn’t make sense, why assume that something this unlikely happened? Thats basicly the core of al the examples I posted earlyer.

Regarding Big bang:
I’m no expert on the matter, but if I’m not mistaken, scientist are not even certain that big bang was the beginning of time. Big bang was an anomaly (rare existing proces) Wich changes 3 photons. This change equals in a lack of energy, this lack of energie is then exhauled by the surroundings, and the lack is passed on throughout space like the waves that form in the water when a rock hit’s it's surface. In it’s path all matter is changed to antimatter and vice verca. This is why nothing earlyer then this event can be “traced” or “examined”. What lies beyond the rimpel? Nobody knows for sure. Since the wave travels by the faststes speed able to obtain, that of light, nobody nor any sensor can be send beyond it to examen it. I even heard recent string theorists have reason to believe that this proces was caused by the collision of two “membranes”. What are these membranes? Well this universe is made up by 11 dimensions according to string theorists rather then 4. The 11th is a membrane. Now imagen many parrallel universes, as loaf’s of bread next to eachother. Now imagen to membranes of 2 universes colliding, and the energy that comes free from such an event.

I am comfortable with "Nothingness" otherwise refered to as "Nothing". And by this you must agree that the "Universe" is expanding, and it expands into "Nothing". For if you travel to the end of the universe would see nothing for light & matter has not expanded, it would not be a physical barrier such as matter can produce (i.e a brick wall)!!!!!

Well I hope you ‘r quite aware of what nothing implies. As you most likely know that what we refer to as vacuum isn't exactly “empty” but composed of “higgs-particles”. This insinuates a “nothing” beyond space, not an emptyness, but an absence of empty space. Think about this: if nothing had ever existed, would there at least have existed a place were something could 've been? This is a tricky filosofical road to travel. As you might also be aware of time is concidered as a dimension in quantumdynamics. Basicly, a fourth direction. This time also isn’t absolute, but can even be bended (by gravity). So, again the question arises, is there such a thing as absolute time, beyond the physics of the universe.

Small religieous intermezzo: Do you think that if this time we experience is also created by a creator, He himself would be subjected to his law?

Now to get back to my point, this whole absolete space and time creates somewhat of a paradox. Does such an absolute time exist? As a human being, my intuition says: “yes” because we as humans are bound to time, we travel to that dimension passifly, without the ability to change the direction of the movement nor the place.
My comen sense however, says: “no” It’s not because it is evident for us, that one has to assumme time exists by itself. An atheist should ask himself the question, if not God, who or what created time and space?

Shifting gears for a second....
Lets look at the way you described big bang. Nothingness from wich something emerges. Now if the “time and space” of this universe is made up of energy how can this time and space exist if there is nothing? And also, if there is nothing, is there a “place” and is there “time” for anything to come forth?
Isn’t this also contradictory to what science teaches us? Namelly that energy, under no circumstances can be formed or deleted, but that it simply shifts form when it looks like there’s a change in energy?

I don't mean to be offensive, but what you said is so typically a negative creationist view. I have said many times before, atheists do not need faith. When I drop a stone it falls to the ground. I know why this is and the theory of gravity tells me why. As for no evidence, most of evolutionary claims can be proven in the micro-species world. I have yet to see a new virus "Created" that does not come to be through evolutionary mutation.

I’m sorry but that’s where you’r wrong, There is no absolute “proof” what you have are plausibilities, based on theory’s not on science. Allow me to ellaborate.

If I were to state that an electrical current creates a magnetic field. I would be able to proof this by placing a compass (or several) next to an electric wire. Then whenever I let a current pass the wire, a change in the position of the needle can be witnessed. This would give my claims a lot of credebility. The proofs for evolution (and by this I mean the theory: from lifeless puddle to human being, because as I stated earlyer, I do not declair everything of evolution to be false) cannot be reproduced or tested in my living room. You can witness two fossiles laying next to eachother, equal in DNA exept for one little detail. An evolutionist can claim that one is a mutated offspring of the other, a creationist can claim it to be 2 slightly different created creatures. The presence of the fossile doesn’t prove either one of them. But since evolutionists first came to talk about these things, everybody naturaly accociates the fossile with evolution, and no questions are asked, this way of thinking goes for all the “so called proof” an evolutionist has to offer.

So just as you said it, it’s a matter of: “Wich plausibilaty seems more logic to me.” Rather then: “Wich theory is proven.” That is why I based this thread on showing some things of evolutiontheory that aren’t that logical (i.e.origin of life).

The same goes for Big bang. It supposibly serves as an alternative to creation, solving the questions that arise with the concepts of infinte, or beginingless. But as I showed, this merely changes the form of the question; just as you would be able to ask me, who created god than? I can ask you, who or what created time and space, created energy, created parallel universes with 11th dimension membranes that are able to collide? The question remains unanswered, and we'll both have to assume a beginingless form sooner or later.

2 of the 99 names of Allah are:
Al-'Awwal ( The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning. )
As-Samad ( The Eternal, The Independent, The Master who is relied upon in matters and reverted to in ones needs. )

I know this is quite a text to reply to, but don't worry, i'll wait. :p
 
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ps: I know a great site that teaches this 11dimensions/string theory stuff etc.. quite well. And you don't have to worry, it's not a religious site. It's based on the book: The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene (an expert on the field)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

It's long, takes about 3 hours total, but the visualisations of these scientific theory's are certainly worth to watch.
 
root said:
Nor was I!

Depends how you phrase it. Are you refering to The "Educated" countries or the "Non-Educated". Don't take this statement out of context like the two I have Quoted above. I mean Countries where "all" children are educated through a National syllabus which includes Science & Religous Education.
I have been educated through a national syllabus, which includes science and religious education, and I am still a Muslim. And let's not forget that there are plenty of schools in some third-world countries...I doubt it has anything to do with education. In addition, it would help to teach people the full facts rather than only giving them what seems apropriate. How many people are taught that the Big Bang doesn't even have a sound basis? That you don't even KNOW where this starting matter came from?


root said:
Are you trying to say the Qur'an as you know it has never suffered from a "Mis-pronounciation". If something is not ambigous then it is straightforward. If Islam is as straightforward as this why do opinions differ so greatly even amongst your same faith followers .
The Qur'an has only been misinterpreted by people who either 'skim' over it or read with their eyes closed. You haven't even read it so you wouldn't know. Opinions differ with regards to minor issues, but no Muslim differs with regards to the Qur'an.


we're not discussing the Bible.

root said:
Interesting, I would really like to know how your Islamic Creationistic beleifs are brought about when dis-regarding the bible.............
You seem to think all religions are the same, yet I was reminding you that we are discussing Islam here and thus you cannot blame us for the faults of other religions. Whether the Bible is regarded or disregarded, our beliefs regarding the evolution of the Universe remain the same.
 
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One more thing, you say you judge this science over religion thing not by the hits but by the misses. Why is it then that you do not aply this way of thinking on your "own" visions? As I said before, there are many questions, arguments to things you said on this forum unanswered, while every question, argument you have brought forth has (almost) always been answered. So the manifestation of your vieuws on this forum has more misses then hits.
I've placed this same question for you in another post:
although you've insinuated this in other topics, science does not contradict religion and the 2 actually support one another. Every point brought up so far that seemingly is contradicting has been argumented against. And most of our arguments remain unanswered so far. Ofcourse one can always be sceptical. But look at it this way: It's like a palice with a 1000 entrances of wish one is closed. 999 ways are openly showing the truth. And one door can not be entered. Therefor the sceptic says the palace is "closed".
 
:sl:

That's quite an interesting video steve, thankyou for providing the link. I noticed some interesting statements (food for thought) mentioned in the video, and so I have provided relevant parts of the transcript (available on the site) for you to read.




'Quantum mechanics says that you can't know for certain the outcome of any experiment; you can only assign a certain probability to the outcome of any experiment. And this, Einstein disliked intensely. He used to say "God does not throw dice."'

Did Einstein believe in God? There is also another part in the video where it mentions that Einstein was trying to think in the 'mind of God' as it were, (I couldn't find the part in the transcript), so I dont know if this is just an exaggeration, or describing the extent to which he wanted to understand God's creation.








'The existence of giant membranes and extra dimensions would open up a startling new possibility, that our whole universe is living on a membrane, inside a much larger, higher dimensional space.
It's almost as if we were living inside...a loaf of bread? Our universe might be like a slice of bread, just one slice, in a much larger loaf that physicists sometimes call the "bulk."

And if these ideas are right, the bulk may have other slices, other universes, that are right next to ours, in effect, "parallel" universes.

Not only would our universe be nothing special, but we could have a lot of neighbors. Some of them could resemble our universe, they might have matter and planets and, who knows, maybe even beings of a sort.

Others certainly would be a lot stranger. They might be ruled by completely different laws of physics. Now, all of these other universes would exist within the extra dimensions of M-theory, dimensions that are all around us. Some even say they might be right next to us, less than a millimeter away.'

But if that's true, why can't I see them or touch them?

BURT OVRUT: If you have a brane living in a higher dimensional space, and your particles, your atoms, cannot get off the brane, it's like trying to reach out, but you can't touch anything. It might as well be on the other end of the universe.
JOSEPH LYKKEN: It's a very powerful idea because if it's right it means that our whole picture of the universe is clouded by the fact that we're trapped on just a tiny slice of the higher dimensional universe.'

'BRIAN GREENE: Making string theory even harder to prove, is that, in order to work, the complex equations require something that sounds like it's straight out of science fiction: extra dimensions of space.

AMANDA PEET: We've always thought, for centuries, that there was only what we can see. You know, this dimension, that one, and another one. There was only three dimensions of space and one of time. And people who've said that there were extra dimensions of space have been labeled as, you know, crackpots, or people who were bananas. Well, string theory really predicts it.'

'AMANDA PEET: People who've said that there were extra dimensions of space, have been labeled as, you know, crackpots or people who are bananas. I mean, what, do you think there are extra dimensions? Well, string theory really predicts it.

BRIAN GREENE: What we think of as our universe could just be one small part of something much bigger.

SAVAS DIMOPOULOS: Perhaps we live on a membrane, a three-dimensional membrane that floats inside higher dimensional space.

BRIAN GREENE: There could be entire worlds right next to us, but completely invisible.

NIMA ARKANI-HAMED (Harvard University): These other worlds would, in a very literal sense, be, be parallel universes. This isn't a particularly exotic or, or strange notion.


We know that there would have to be 11 dimensions for this theory to make sense. So there must be 11 dimensions. We only see three plus one of them. How is that possible?
BRIAN GREENE: For most of us, it's virtually impossible to picture the extra, higher dimensions: I can't. And it's not surprising. Our brains evolved sensing just the three spatial dimensions of everyday experience. So how can we get a feel for them?'


Now this is an interesting idea, since Muslims have known about 'another dimension' for centuries. It is in fact a world parallel to ours, known as the world of 'Jinn' or demons. Muhammad (peace be upon him) was in fact sent to teach both worlds as they are both required to believe in God and obey His commands. Jinn are independent, living, intelligent beings possessing a will and subject to commands and prohibitions, and are not aspects of human nature as some people who deny their existence believe.

It seems that religion might not be as strange or unrealistic as some may conceive. Science itself is predicting ideas that would otherwise be thought to be crazy, yet now they are saying that these thoughts are not "particularly strange". Science and religion do not disagree, and perhaps the two will agree even more obviously in the future.

root said:
Nah, but i have read about the physical restrictions of organic matter and the restrictions applied to it and the power that "cilicone" brings to break through the restrictions of physical matter and cary out super human mathmatical wonders. I am not defeatest the same way you have implied by proceeding to explain our "Limited" understanding. Why can't you think outside the box....

With regard to the concept of having "limited" understanding, science itself indicates such a concept. The underlined text in the transcript above shows this, as does the following:

'We have been incredibly lucky. Nature has somehow allowed us to unlock the keys to many fundamental mysteries already. How far can we push that? We won't know until we, until we try.'

They seem to believe that nature has a mind of its own for one thing... and they don't know to what extent they can comprehend it. Maybe scientists are willing to admit that there is a limit to their understanding; they don't know how far they can go but they certainly recognise there is some kind of 'limit':

'And quantum mechanics unveiled the inner workings of atoms and molecules, revealing a world that's bizarre and uncertain.'

'But, regardless of the outcome, we'll keep going, because, well, that's what we do. We follow our curiosity. We explore the unknown. And a hundred or a thousand years from now, today's view of the cosmos may look woefully incomplete, perhaps even quaint. But undeniably, the ideas we call string theory are a testament to the power of human creativity. They've opened a whole new spectrum of possible answers to age-old questions. And with them, we've taken a dramatic leap in our quest to fully understand this elegant universe.'







The following is showing that not everything is science is based on facts and theories, and to believe in something without evidence is perhaps what some would call 'faith'. Thus religion and science are not so different as some imagined...

'No experiment can ever check up what's going on at the distances that are being studied. No observation can relate to these tiny distances or high energies. That is to say, there ain't no experiment that could be done, nor is there any observation that could be made, that would say, "You guys are wrong." The theory is safe, permanently safe. Is that a theory of physics or a philosophy? I ask you.

'S. JAMES GATES, JR. (University of Maryland): If string theory fails to provide a testable prediction, then nobody should believe it.

SHELDON LEE GLASHOW: Is that a theory of physics, or a philosophy?'

'These exercises in our imagination of mathematics are all, at the end of the day, subjected to a single question: "Is it there in the laboratory? Can you find its evidence?"
JOSEPH LYKKEN: String theory and string theorists do have a real problem. How do you actually test string theory? If you can't test it in the way that we test normal theories, it's not science, it's philosophy, and that's a real problem.'






Something about the Big Bang theory....

'As the classic story goes, the vast universe we see today was once extremely small, unimaginably small. Then, suddenly, it got bigger—a lot bigger—during the dramatic event known as the big bang.
The big bang stretched the fabric of space and set off the chain of events that brought us to the universe we know and love today. But there's always been a couple of problems with the big bang theory. First, when you squeeze the entire universe into an infinitesimally small, but stupendously dense package, at a certain point, our laws of physics simply break down. They just don't make sense anymore.

DAVID GROSS: The formulas we use start giving answers that are nonsensical. We find total disaster. Everything breaks down, and we're stuck.

BRIAN GREENE: And on top of this, there's the bang itself. What exactly is that?

ALAN GUTH: That's actually a problem. The classic form of the big bang theory really says nothing about what banged, what happened before it banged, or what caused it to bang.'


'PAUL STEINHARDT (Princeton University): Most people come at this with the naïve notion that there was a beginning—that somehow space and time emerged from nothingness into somethingness.
BURT OVRUT: Well, I don't know about you, but I don't like nothing. Do I really believe that the universe was a big bang out of nothing? And I'm not a philosopher, so I won't say. But I could imagine to a philosopher, that is a problem. But to a physicist, I think, it's also a problem.

BRIAN GREENE: Everyone admits there are problems. The question is: "Can string theory solve them?" Some string theorists have suggested that the Big Bang wasn't the beginning at all, that the universe could have existed long before even forever. Not everyone is comfortable with the idea.

ALAN GUTH: I actually find it rather unattractive to think about a universe without a beginning. It seems to me that a universe without a beginning is also a universe without an explanation.'

Interesting why this person believes there should be a beginning...





'So here's the question: if you're trying to figure out what happens in the depths of a black hole, where an entire star is crushed to a tiny speck, do you use general relativity because the star is incredibly heavy or quantum mechanics because it's incredibly tiny?
Well, that's the problem. Since the center of a black hole is both tiny and heavy, you can't avoid using both theories at the same time. And when we try to put the two theories together in the realm of black holes, they conflict. It breaks down. They give nonsensical predictions. And the universe is not nonsensical; it's got to make sense.'

Why does the Universe have to make sense? If it came from nothing and has such a random nature, where does orderliness and sense come into it?
 
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One more thing, you say you judge this science over religion thing not by the hits but by the misses. Why is it then that you do not aply this way of thinking on your "own" visions? As I said before, there are many questions, arguments to things you said on this forum unanswered, while every question, argument you have brought forth has (almost) always been answered. So the manifestation of your vieuws on this forum has more misses then hits.
I've placed this same question for you in another post

Hi Steve,

With the best of intentions, for this forum at least my ideas are very much in a minority. And to respond to all comments on all matters is not practicle. As far as "Hit's and misses" go. I don't generalise this point based on forum discussions but apply it to the whole field of science & religion (Not just Islam).

I am off down to the Pub for a pint or two and like to think about all the points discussed in this thread, though not this particular point even though you may have posted...... It's my opinion I give and I don't debate to a finale since that cannot be achieved with many points raised..........

I intend to come back to this thread though........

Regards

Root
 
Sounds fair enoughf to me, can't blame a guy for trying thoug, wright? I understand it's time filling to answer all questions and arguments. But on the other hand, when you make insinuations about science contradicting Islam, I need some reference or arguments in order not to shake you up for it. ;)
 
I think Einstein was a sucker for causality, believing that from beginning to end, whoever or whatever force made up the universe, must have don so in an order that al events just follow out of each other by natural laws. So there's no luck involved, no electron being at one place then and onother the next second. That's why he didn't like quantumfysics that much, It didn't fit his "picture".

As for science not being able to look outside the box, I came acros a beautiful metafore the other day:

Science Cannot Answer “Why”
The observable universe is three-dimensional. But the universe as a whole is at least four-dimensional. If a natural law has a cause in the fourth dimension, a dimension to which we have no access, we cannot understand it. We can demonstrate this by an example, helping us to understand what we mean. Think of a metallic plane on which there are some creatures that are like electrons, which have no interaction with the third dimension, nor do they have any sense of it. All they can see is the two-dimensional plane where they live. Assume that a person is shooting at the plane, periodically opening holes at regular intervals. Observing that these holes are being opened periodically and at an equal distance, these creatures, if intelligent enough, will begin to see an unchanging pattern. And they may even give it a name, like “the law of holes.” They may calculate exactly where and when the next holes will appear, but they will never understand why these holes are being made or why they are being made in an unchanging pattern. Our idea of universal laws is much the same. We find the laws, we name them, but we will never be able to understand why they exist, or why they work in a mathematically describable way.


source: Are Religion and Science Compatible?
By Murat ERDIN http://www.fountainmagazine.com/
 
:sl: I don't want to flood the discussion, but I came across a decent summary article back on the subject of evolution and creation.

Do You Believe That Evolution Is True?

If so, then provide an answer to the following questions. "Evolution" in this
context is the idea that natural, undirected processes are sufficient to account for the existence of all natural things.

1. Something from nothing?

The "Big Bang", the most widely accepted theory of the beginning of the
universe, states that everything developed from a small dense cloud of
subatomic particles and radiation which exploded, forming hydrogen (and some helium) gas. Where did this energy/matter come from? How reasonable is it to assume it came into being from nothing? And even if it did come into being, what would cause it to explode? We know from common experience that explosions are destructive and lead to disorder. How reasonable is it to assume that a "big bang" explosion produced the opposite effect - increasing "information", order and the formation of useful structures, such as stars and planets, and eventually people?

2. Physical laws an accident?

We know the universe is governed by several fundamental physical laws, such as electromagnetic forces, gravity, conservation of mass and energy, etc. The activities of our universe depend upon these principles like a computer program depends upon the existence of computer hardware with an instruction set. How reasonable is it to say that these great controlling principles developed by accident?

3. Order from disorder?

The Second Law of Thermodynamics may be the most verified law of science. It states that systems become more disordered over time, unless energy is supplied and directed to create order. Evolutionists says that the opposite has taken place - that order increased over time, without any directed energy.

How can this be?

ASIDE: Evolutionists commonly object that the Second Law applies to closed, or isolated systems, and that the Earth is certainly not a closed system (it gets lots of raw energy from the Sun, for example). However, all systems, whether open or closed, tend to deteriorate. For example, living organisms are open systems but they all decay and die. Also, the universe in total is a closed system. To say that the chaos of the big bang has transformed itself into the human brain with its 120 trillion connections is a clear violation of the Second Law.

We should also point out that the availability of raw energy to a system is a necessary but far from sufficient condition for a local decrease in entropy to occur. Certainly theapplication of a blow torch to bicycle parts will not result in a bicycle being assembled - only the careful application of directed energy will, such as from the hands of a person following a plan. The presence of energy from the Sun does NOT solve the evolutionist's problem of how increasing order could occur on the Earth, contrary to the Second Law.

4. Information from Randomness?

Information theory states that "information" never arises out of randomness or chance events. Our human experience verifies this every day. How can the origin of the tremendous increase in information from simple organisms up to man be accounted for? Information is always introduced from the outside. It is impossible for natural processes to produce their own actual information, or meaning, which is what evolutionists claim has happened. Random typing might
produce the string "dog", but it only means something to an intelligent
observer who has applied a definition to this sequence of letters. The
generation of information always requires intelligence, yet evolution claims that no intelligence was involved in the ultimate formation of a human being whose many systems contain vast amounts of information.

5. Life from dead chemicals?

Evolutionists claim that life formed from non-life (dead chemicals), so-called "abiogenesis", even though it is a biological law ("biogenesis") that life only comes from life. The probability of the simplest imaginable replicating system forming by itself from non-living chemicals has been calculated to be so very small as to be essentially zero - much less than one chance in the number of electron-sized particles that could fit in the entire visible universe! Given these odds, is it reasonable to believe that life formed itself?

6. Complex DNA and RNA by chance?

The continued existence (the reproduction) of a cell requires both DNA (the "plan") and RNA (the "copy mechanism"), both of which are tremendously complex. How reasonable is it to believe that these two co-dependent necessities came into existence by chance at exactly the same time?

7. Life is complex

We know and appreciate the tremendous amount of intelligent design and
planning that went into landing a man on the moon. Yet the complexity of this task pales in comparison to the complexity of even the simplest life form. How reasonable is it to believe that purely natural processes, with no designer, no intelligence, and no plan, produced a human being.

8. Where are the transitional fossils?

If evolution has taken place our museums should be overflowing with the
skeletons of countless transitional forms. Yet after over one hundred years of intense searching only a small number of transitional candidates are touted as proof of evolution. If evolution has really taken place, where are the transitional forms? And why does the fossil record actually show all species first appearing fully formed, with most nearly identical to current instances of the species?

ASIDE: Most of the examples touted by evolutionists concentrate on just one feature of the anatomy, like a particular bone or the skull. A true
transitional fossil should be intermediate in many if not all aspects. The next time someone shows you how this bone changed over time, ask them about the rest of the creature too! Many evolutionists still like to believe in the "scarcity" of the fossil record. Yet simple statistics will show that given you have found a number of fossil instances of a creature, the chances that you have missed every one of its imagined predecessors is very small. Consider the trilobites for example. These fossils are so common you can buy one for under $20, yet no fossils of a predecessor have been found!

9. Could an intermediate even survive?

Evolution requires the transition from one kind to another to be gradual. And don't forget that "natural selection" is supposed to retain those individuals which have developed an advantage of some sort. How could an animal intermediate between one kind and another even survive (and why would it ever be selected for), when it would not be well-suited toeither its old environment or its new environment? Can you even imagine a possible sequence of small changes which takes a creature from one kind to another, all the while keeping it not only alive, but improved?

ASIDE: Certainly a "light-sensitive spot" is better than no vision at all. But
why would such a spot even develop? (evolutionists like to take this for
granted). And even if it did develop, to believe that mutations of such a spot eventually brought about the tremendous complexities of the human eye strains all common sense and experience.

10. Reproduction without reproduction?

A main tenet of evolution is the idea that things develop by an (unguided)
series of small changes, caused by mutations, which are "selected" for,
keeping the "better" changes" over a very long period of time. How could the ability to reproduce evolve, without the ability to reproduce? Can you even imagine a theoretical scenario which would allow this to happen? And why would evolution produce two sexes, many times over? Asexual reproduction would seem to be more likely and efficient!

ASIDE: To relegate the question of reproduction to "abiogenesis" does NOT address the problem. To assume existing, reproducing life for the principles of evolution to work on is a HUGE assumption which is seldom focused on in popular discussions.

11. Plants without photosynthesis?

The process of photosynthesis in plants is very complex. How could the first plant survive unless it already possessed this remarkable capability?

12. How do you explain symbiotic relationships?

There are many examples of plants and animals which have a "symbiotic"
relationship (they need each other to survive). How can evolution explain
this?

13.It's no good unless it's complete

We know from everyday experience that an item is not generally useful until it is complete, whether it be a car, a cake, or a computer program. Why would natural selection start to make an eye, or an ear, or a wing (or anything else) when this item would not benefit the animal until it was completed?

ASIDE: Note that even a "light-sensitive spot" or the simplest version of any feature is far from a "one-jump" change that is trivial to produce.

14. Explain metamorphosis!

How can evolution explain the metamorphosis of the butterfly? Once the
caterpillar evolves into the "mass of jelly" (out of which the butterfly
comes), wouldn't it appear to be "stuck"?

15. It should be easy to show evolution

If evolution is the grand mechanism that has produced all natural things from a simple gas, surely this mechanism must be easily seen. It should be possible to prove its existence in a matter of weeks or days, if not hours. Yet scientists have been bombarding countless generations of fruit flies with radiation for several decades in order to show evolution in action and still have only produced ... more (deformed) fruit flies. How reasonable is it to believe that evolution is a fact when even the simplest of experiments has not been able to document it?

ASIDE: The artificial creation of a new species is far too small of a change
to prove that true "macro-evolution" is possible. A higher-order change, where the information content of the organism has been increased should be show able and is not. Developing a new species changes the existing information, but does not add new information, such as would be needed for a new organ, for example.

16. Complex things require intelligent design folks!

People are intelligent. If a team of engineers were to one day design a robot which could cross all types of terrain, could dig large holes, could carry several times its weight, found its own energy sources, could make more robots like itself, and was only 1/8 of an inch tall, we would marvel at this achievement. All of our life's experiences lead us to know that such a robot could never come about by accident, or assemble itself by chance, even if all of the parts were available laying next to each other. And we are certain beyond doubt that a canister of hydrogen gas, not matter how long we left it there or what type of raw energy we might apply to it, would never result in such a robot being produced. But we already have such a "robot" - it is called an "ant", and we squash them because they are "nothing" compared to people. And God made them, and he made us. Can there be any other explanation?
 
The five propositions below seem to be the most common misconceptions based on a Creationist straw-man version of evolution. If you hear anyone making any of them, chances are excellent that they don't know enough about the real theory of evolution to make informed opinions about it.

1. Evolution has never been observed.
2. Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
3. There are no transitional fossils.
4. The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance.
1. Evolution is only a theory; it hasn't been proved.

"Evolution has never been observed."

Biologists define evolution as a change in the gene pool of a population over time. One example is insects developing a resistance to pesticides over the period of a few years. Even most Creationists recognize that evolution at this level is a fact. What they don't appreciate is that this rate of evolution is all that is required to produce the diversity of all living things from a common ancestor.

The origin of new species by evolution has also been observed, both in the laboratory and in the wild. See, for example, (Weinberg, J.R., V.R. Starczak, and D. Jorg, 1992, "Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event in the laboratory." Evolution 46: 1214-1220). The "Observed Instances of Speciation" FAQ in the talk.origins archives gives several additional examples.

Even without these direct observations, it would be wrong to say that evolution hasn't been observed. Evidence isn't limited to seeing something happen before your eyes. Evolution makes predictions about what we would expect to see in the fossil record, comparative anatomy, genetic sequences, geographical distribution of species, etc., and these predictions have been verified many times over. The number of observations supporting evolution is overwhelming.

What hasn't been observed is one animal abruptly changing into a radically different one, such as a frog changing into a cow. This is not a problem for evolution because evolution doesn't propose occurrences even remotely like that. In fact, if we ever observed a frog turn into a cow, it would be very strong evidence against evolution.

"Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics."

This shows more a misconception about thermodynamics than about evolution. The second law of thermodynamics says, "No process is possible in which the sole result is the transfer of energy from a cooler to a hotter body." [Atkins, 1984, The Second Law, pg. 25] Now you may be scratching your head wondering what this has to do with evolution. The confusion arises when the 2nd law is phrased in another equivalent way, "The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease." Entropy is an indication of unusable energy and often (but not always!) corresponds to intuitive notions of disorder or randomness. Creationists thus misinterpret the 2nd law to say that things invariably progress from order to disorder.

However, they neglect the fact that life is not a closed system. The sun provides more than enough energy to drive things. If a mature tomato plant can have more usable energy than the seed it grew from, why should anyone expect that the next generation of tomatoes can't have more usable energy still? Creationists sometimes try to get around this by claiming that the information carried by living things lets them create order. However, not only is life irrelevant to the 2nd law, but order from disorder is common in nonliving systems, too. Snowflakes, sand dunes, tornadoes, stalactites, graded river beds, and lightning are just a few examples of order coming from disorder in nature; none require an intelligent program to achieve that order. In any nontrivial system with lots of energy flowing through it, you are almost certain to find order arising somewhere in the system. If order from disorder is supposed to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, why is it ubiquitous in nature?

The thermodynamics argument against evolution displays a misconception about evolution as well as about thermodynamics, since a clear understanding of how evolution works should reveal major flaws in the argument. Evolution says that organisms reproduce with only small changes between generations (after their own kind, so to speak). For example, animals might have appendages which are longer or shorter, thicker or flatter, lighter or darker than their parents. Occasionally, a change might be on the order of having four or six fingers instead of five. Once the differences appear, the theory of evolution calls for differential reproductive success. For example, maybe the animals with longer appendages survive to have more offspring than short-appendaged ones. All of these processes can be observed today. They obviously don't violate any physical laws.

"There are no transitional fossils."

A transitional fossil is one that looks like it's from an organism intermediate between two lineages, meaning it has some characteristics of lineage A, some characteristics of lineage B, and probably some characteristics part way between the two. Transitional fossils can occur between groups of any taxonomic level, such as between species, between orders, etc. Ideally, the transitional fossil should be found stratigraphically between the first occurrence of the ancestral lineage and the first occurrence of the descendent lineage, but evolution also predicts the occurrence of some fossils with transitional morphology that occur after both lineages. There's nothing in the theory of evolution which says an intermediate form (or any organism, for that matter) can have only one line of descendents, or that the intermediate form itself has to go extinct when a line of descendents evolves.

To say there are no transitional fossils is simply false. Paleontology has progressed a bit since Origin of Species was published, uncovering thousands of transitional fossils, by both the temporally restrictive and the less restrictive definitions. The fossil record is still spotty and always will be; erosion and the rarity of conditions favorable to fossilization make that inevitable. Also, transitions may occur in a small population, in a small area, and/or in a relatively short amount of time; when any of these conditions hold, the chances of finding the transitional fossils goes down. Still, there are still many instances where excellent sequences of transitional fossils exist. Some notable examples are the transitions from reptile to mammal, from land animal to early whale, and from early ape to human. For many more examples, see the transitional fossils FAQ in the talk.origins archive, and see

http://www.geo.ucalgary.ca/~macrae/talk_origins.html for sample images for some invertebrate groups.

The misconception about the lack of transitional fossils is perpetuated in part by a common way of thinking about categories. When people think about a category like "dog" or "ant," they often subconsciously believe that there is a well-defined boundary around the category, or that there is some eternal ideal form (for philosophers, the Platonic idea) which defines the category. This kind of thinking leads people to declare that Archaeopteryx is "100% bird," when it is clearly a mix of bird and reptile features (with more reptile than bird features, in fact). In truth, categories are man-made and artificial. Nature is not constrained to follow them, and it doesn't.

Some Creationists claim that the hypothesis of punctuated equilibrium was proposed (by Eldredge and Gould) to explain gaps in the fossil record. Actually, it was proposed to explain the relative rarity of transitional forms, not their total absence, and to explain why speciation appears to happen relatively quickly in some cases, gradually in others, and not at all during some periods for some species. In no way does it deny that transitional sequences exist. In fact, both Gould and Eldredge are outspoken opponents of Creationism.


"But paleontologists have discovered several superb examples of intermediary forms and sequences, more than enough to convince any fair-minded skeptic about the reality of life's physical genealogy." - Stephen Jay Gould, Natural History, May 1994

"The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance."

There is probably no other statement which is a better indication that the arguer doesn't understand evolution. Chance certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance. Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations. Those variations which give greater reproductive success to their possessors (and chance ensures that such beneficial mutations will be inevitable) are retained, and less successful variations are weeded out. When the environment changes, or when organisms move to a different environment, different variations are selected, leading eventually to different species. Harmful mutations usually die out quickly, so they don't interfere with the process of beneficial mutations accumulating.

Nor is abiogenesis (the origin of the first life) due purely to chance. Atoms and molecules arrange themselves not purely randomly, but according to their chemical properties. In the case of carbon atoms especially, this means complex molecules are sure to form spontaneously, and these complex molecules can influence each other to create even more complex molecules. Once a molecule forms that is approximately self-replicating, natural selection will guide the formation of ever more efficient replicators. The first self-replicating object didn't need to be as complex as a modern cell or even a strand of DNA. Some self-replicating molecules are not really all that complex (as organic molecules go).

Some people still argue that it is wildly improbable for a given self-replicating molecule to form at a given point (although they usually don't state the "givens," but leave them implicit in their calculations). This is true, but there were oceans of molecules working on the problem, and no one knows how many possible self-replicating molecules could have served as the first one. A calculation of the odds of abiogenesis is worthless unless it recognizes the immense range of starting materials that the first replicator might have formed from, the probably innumerable different forms that the first replicator might have taken, and the fact that much of the construction of the replicating molecule would have been non-random to start with.

(One should also note that the theory of evolution doesn't depend on how the first life began. The truth or falsity of any theory of abiogenesis wouldn't affect evolution in the least.)

"Evolution is only a theory; it hasn't been proved."

First, we should clarify what "evolution" means. Like so many other words, it has more than one meaning. Its strict biological definition is "a change in allele frequencies over time." By that definition, evolution is an indisputable fact. Most people seem to associate the word "evolution" mainly with common descent, the theory that all life arose from one common ancestor. Many people believe that there is enough evidence to call this a fact, too. However, common descent is still not the theory of evolution, but just a fraction of it (and a part of several quite different theories as well). The theory of evolution not only says that life evolved, it also includes mechanisms, like mutations, natural selection, and genetic drift, which go a long way towards explaining how life evolved.

Calling the theory of evolution "only a theory" is, strictly speaking, true, but the idea it tries to convey is completely wrong. The argument rests on a confusion between what "theory" means in informal usage and in a scientific context. A theory, in the scientific sense, is "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" [Random House American College Dictionary]. The term does not imply tentativeness or lack of certainty. Generally speaking, scientific theories differ from scientific laws only in that laws can be expressed more tersely. Being a theory implies self-consistency, agreement with observations, and usefulness. (Creationism fails to be a theory mainly because of the last point; it makes few or no specific claims about what we would expect to find, so it can't be used for anything. When it does make falsifiable predictions, they prove to be false.)

Lack of proof isn't a weakness, either. On the contrary, claiming infallibility for one's conclusions is a sign of hubris. Nothing in the real world has ever been rigorously proved, or ever will be. Proof, in the mathematical sense, is possible only if you have the luxury of defining the universe you're operating in. In the real world, we must deal with levels of certainty based on observed evidence. The more and better evidence we have for something, the more certainty we assign to it; when there is enough evidence, we label the something a fact, even though it still isn't 100% certain.

What evolution has is what any good scientific claim has--evidence, and lots of it. Evolution is supported by a wide range of observations throughout the fields of genetics, anatomy, ecology, animal behavior, paleontology, and others. If you wish to challenge the theory of evolution, you must address that evidence. You must show that the evidence is either wrong or irrelevant or that it fits another theory better. Of course, to do this, you must know both the theory and the evidence.

Conclusion

These are not the only misconceptions about evolution by any means. Other common misunderstandings include how geological dating techniques work, implications to morality and religion, the meaning of "uniformitarianism," and many more. To address all these objections here would be impossible.

But consider: About a hundred years ago, scientists, who were then mostly creationists, looked at the world to figure out how God did things. These creationists came to the conclusions of an old earth and species originating by evolution. Since then, thousands of scientists have been studying evolution with increasingly more sophisticated tools. Many of these scientists have excellent understandings of the laws of thermodynamics, how fossil finds are interpreted, etc., and finding a better alternative to evolution would win them fame and fortune. Sometimes their work has changed our understanding of significant details of how evolution operates, but the theory of evolution still has essentially unanimous agreement from the people who work on it.
 
"Evolution has never been observed."

Well I think I stated a couple of times that I do not deny this, in fact I’m sure that some creature’s evolved from others. But it’s one thing to say that, and another to claim all beings evolved from one creature. What “hasn’t been observed” is a creature evolving wings for example. Again I still have doubts about the eye, even with this light-sensor as a base, it seems absurd to assume it evolved through random mutation of DNA.

"There are no transitional fossils."
First of al I already showed how fossiles aren’t quite the best of proofs available.

The misconception about the lack of transitional fossils is perpetuated in part by a common way of thinking about categories. When people think about a category like "dog" or "ant," they often subconsciously believe that there is a well-defined boundary around the category, or that there is some eternal ideal form. Nature is not constrained to follow them, and it doesn't.

I think the main point here is not the name of the creature but it’s structures. I have so far avoided naming concreate species and simply refered to their features to avoid such a way of thinking. Of course nature isn’t constrained to follow our indexation, but this indexation is formed for a reason. In the example of birds, the question you should ask yourself is not: “is there a flying species that looks simalar to a reptile?” , but rather: “how big is the chance of a reptile evolving wings, a lighter weight, stronger breastmuscles, ....

"The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance."
Chance certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance. Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations. Those variations which give greater reproductive success to their possessors

Here the answer to the argument is in fact already given. Natural selection comes after the “chance” part so it’s absurd to answer this chance with natural selection. In fact natural selection makes the “chance” of evolution smaller! This because natural selection states that a mutation must be in such a way that it’s usefull at once.

Nor is abiogenesis (the origin of the first life) due purely to chance. Atoms and molecules arrange themselves not purely randomly, but according to their chemical properties. In the case of carbon atoms especially, this means complex molecules are sure to form spontaneously, and these complex molecules can influence each other to create even more complex molecules. Once a molecule forms that is approximately self-replicating, natural selection will guide the formation of ever more efficient replicators. The first self-replicating object didn't need to be as complex as a modern cell or even a strand of DNA. Some self-replicating molecules are not really all that complex (as organic molecules go).

I think any chemist can tell you this is in fact wrong. First of al there are so many carbon-based molecules, it’s absurd to assume the ones needed for DNA are sure to form. Do you know how many atoms an avarage virus is made of? It sure is a lot for it to be formed out of a lifeless pool. Also there’s still this chicken vs egg thingy I posted earlyer:

Contemporary organisms carry their genetic information in nucleic acids - RNA and DNA - and use essentially the same genetic code. This code specifies the amino acid sequences of all the proteins each organism needs. More precisely, the instructions take the form of specific sequences of nucleotides, the building blocks of nucleic acids. These nucleotides consist of a sugar (deoxyribose in DNA, and ribose in RNA), a phosphate group and one of four different nitrogen-containing bases. These nucleic acids specified the composition of all needed proteins. It also relied on proteins to direct many of the reactions required for self-perpetuation. Hence, the central problem of origin-of-life research can be refined to ask, By what series of chemical reactions did this interdependent system of nucleic acids and proteins come into being?

Anyone trying to solve this puzzle immediately encounters a paradox. Nowadays nucleic acids are synthesized only with the help of proteins, and proteins are synthesized only if their corresponding nucleotide sequence is present. It is extremely improbable that proteins and nucleic acids, both of which are structurally complex, arose spontaneously in the same place at the same time. Yet it also seems impossible to have one without the other. And so, at first glance, one might have to conclude that life could never, in fact, have originated by chemical means.

Some people still argue that it is wildly improbable for a given self-replicating molecule to form at a given point (although they usually don't state the "givens," but leave them implicit in their calculations). This is true, but there were oceans of molecules working on the problem, and no one knows how many possible self-replicating molecules could have served as the first one. A calculation of the odds of abiogenesis is worthless unless it recognizes the immense range of starting materials that the first replicator might have formed from, the probably innumerable different forms that the first replicator might have taken, and the fact that much of the construction of the replicating molecule would have been non-random to start with.

Again a lot of wrong assumptions. The current theory of abiogenesis requires:
1. A galactic storm creating the proper enviorements. (the air on earth was quite hostile for life to form, so claims are made of stardust passing through the atmosphere)
2. A meteor carrying certain nucleid acids falling on earth. This metero was
A. Not to big for the impact to give to much energy so the nucleid acid would be destroyed.
B. Not to small to burn up in the atmosfere.
So the chemical compounds weren’t just waiting to form a lifeform as suggested.

"Evolution is only a theory; it hasn't been proved."
Maybe I haven’t always been correct in terminology, but i think I made it quite clear that it was common descent and not evolution I provided arguements against. If I would have started a topic called: “common descent arguments vs creatist arguments” I think it would have been less clear what the topic was actualy about.

Calling the theory of evolution "only a theory" is, strictly speaking, true, but the idea it tries to convey is completely wrong. The argument rests on a confusion between what "theory" means in informal usage and in a scientific context. A theory, in the scientific sense, is "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" [Random House American College Dictionary]. The term does not imply tentativeness or lack of certainty. Generally speaking, scientific theories differ from scientific laws only in that laws can be expressed more tersely. Being a theory implies self-consistency, agreement with observations, and usefulness. (Creationism fails to be a theory mainly because of the last point; it makes few or no specific claims about what we would expect to find, so it can't be used for anything. When it does make falsifiable predictions, they prove to be false.)

Funny, but wouldn’t the “theory of common descent” by that defenition also fail to be a theory? This is, basicly what I’ve been saying all along. When it comes to science vs. Religion, there are no contradictions, nor are there proofs against religion.

Lack of proof isn't a weakness, either. On the contrary, claiming infallibility for one's conclusions is a sign of hubris. Nothing in the real world has ever been rigorously proved, or ever will be. Proof, in the mathematical sense, is possible only if you have the luxury of defining the universe you're operating in. In the real world, we must deal with levels of certainty based on observed evidence. The more and better evidence we have for something, the more certainty we assign to it; when there is enough evidence, we label the something a fact, even though it still isn't 100% certain.

Yet the most obvious things, a critisist fails to accept. But when it comes to science, it’s all good, because of what it provides: peace of mind, false feeling of irresponsability over one’s actions regarding wright over wrong.
(I'm not saying this is true for you Root, I'm saying this "in general")
 
One could forward an argument that the "theory" about "all God/s being man-made" needs proof to be substantiated. What conditions do the evolutionists and/or atheists propose for their theory to be proved or disproved? Notice that their theory about God being a man made idea is THEIR invention (or conjecture. They need to present testable conditions by which their theory could be proved and/or disproved otherwise it cannot be accepted on the scale of science.

"If a creator exists, I feel that if it really required worship, love, fear, etc, it would certainly make itself known in a way that would exclude any doubts. So far, none have, which is why we have so many. This is just my opinion."

I think it would be pointless to have the Creator show up every now and then to scare us and induce belief in mankind. The reality of man having free will and choice will be entirely lost at that point. Evolution by random chance does not produce free will, nor will the perpetual presence of God among us. The reason why man stands apart for the rest of life forms is due to his ability to choose and believe. Much of scientific progress would not have happened if man did not choose and believe through indirect evidence. Evolutionists and/or Atheists argument necessitates that man should give up the idea of having freewill and accountability and become an animal form. A rapist and a murderer need not be punished just because they have been "biologically wired" to perform that act!
 
Preacher

If you think it pointless to have the Creator show up every now and then and induce belief in mankind, then don't go to Heaven, you may see too much of Him.
 
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mansio said:
Preacher

If you think it pointless to have the Creator show up every now and then and induce belief in mankind, then don't go to Heaven, you may see to much of Him.
mansio

When it comes to making non-sense and spreading disinformation, you take the cake. I know you from Ummah.com, where my ID is "This is Me." You just ran there and posted a response to my same post like Sherlock Holmes that this post is under "Preacher" at LI forum. This is the peak of your processing capacity. It never clicked in your mind that perhaps "Preacher" and "This is me" could be the same person. Seconds before I was at Ummah.com, where I read your post. Also I don't like fundi Christians like you who claim that they are not Christians, but can't resist defending the false NT and their sham god Jesus. Be man enough rather being ashamed to be a Christian? If you don't want to admit you are a Christian than why are you?

Let me also edcuate you that "me" going to Paradise (in Islam we have the concept of going to Paradise and not to heaven) is not the same as God is showing up often on earth. But again, this non-sense can only happen in the fictional Bible, of course you believe in that whole heartedly.

Ciao
 
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Preacher

There's only one thing that guides me :
I don't believe in fairy tales whether in the Bible or in the Quran.
 
I posted earlyer
Yet the most obvious things, a critisist fails to accept. But when it comes to science, it’s all good, because of what it provides: peace of mind, false feeling of irresponsability over one’s actions regarding wright over wrong.
(I'm not saying this is true for you Root, I'm saying this "in general")

I think we have a winner, someone who doesn't believe in fairy tales....
But lets take a look at these fairy tales, shall we? Considere the universe, a whole bunch of strings dancing around, forming quarks, atoms , molecules, structures, in such a magificant way it produces the world we are seing wright now. Imagen all the changes you see every day, al the processe happening on earth using 4 different forces and relies on these four only. So simple, yet it's taken us ages to figure out just "how" this works. And as far as science is concearned we still have no clue regarding to "why" (reason nor cause). Consider the earlyer mentioned big bang, if the energy was just a tiny amount bigger or smaller, the results would be a universe as beautifull as this one, would never have existed. Consider the beautiful constants we encounter in science, pi , armstrong, e , etc... Imagen one being slightly different, and a balance as stable as the current one would have been impossible. Imagen all your physical properties being writen on a molecule so small it's invisible to the naked eye. Did you know that DNA, rather then using a whole alfabet to store information, relies on only 4 different parts? (as a computer's information only consists of zero's and one's, genetic information could be deciphered as "A's" "B's" "C's" and "D's" )

Now consider, just for a second, that this universe, would be created. That the four forces work only at will of that creator. That he was able to fit all that information on your genes. Imagen the imense wisdom and power required. And ask yourself, if someone is able to do all that, would it be hard for him to perform a miricle? Would it be hard to make an angel with this kind of power? Would it be hard to make any other thing happen, that makes you refer to it as fairy tale? Or is it hard for you to exept this, just out of fear?
 
Fairy tales have nothing to do with science.
It needs a God to create a universe, but anybody, even a child, can think up a fairy tale.
 
Correct, but then again if you admit that this universe indeed proves a creator, is it that far fetched to assume this creator has made contact with us at any way? I'm still assuming you refer to it as fairy tales, because it seems far fetched. What I'm trying to point out is, that it seems far fetched because you don't believe it.

I don't believ, therefor angels, and prophets and so seem far fetched, therefor this is a reason for me not to believe.....

I believe, therefor angels and prophet and so on seem logical, possible, therefor this is not a reason for me "not" to believe....

Both is thinking in circles, and wether or not you'd like to admit it, it's not the cause of my believe nor is it of your disbelieve.
 

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