On Dawuds suggestion I started a new thread on this, since we wouldn't want to derail a thread on Israel, now would we? .
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Why a truce and not a peace settlement? Well in Islam we cannot hand over one hand span of Muslim land, to do so would be ruling by other than God and his final messenger have revealed and could even be judged an act of apostasy therefore.
This is an interesting position with far-reaching consequences. Obviously the land that is now Israel is not the only land Muslims ever lost. To give a few examples of much more massive land loss:
1. Much of the Balkans was ones under Muslims (Ottoman) rule. Up to the gates of Vienna.
2. Much of what is now Russia was Islamic until at least the 18th century
3. The Mughal Empire streched deep into what is now Hindu India. Lets not forget that after the Indian independence many Muslims were uprooted and moved to what is now Pakistan.
4. Spain was Muslim land for centuries
5. Sicily was Muslim for quite a while during the Middle Ages
Is the above ruling applies to Israel. Then logically, it also applies to all these cases. So I assume the solution you extend to the Jews in Israel also extends to the Spaniards, Bulgarians, Romanians, Greeks, Hungarians, Serbians, Indians, Russians, Ukranians, Italians, etc? In that they must accept the authority of the Islamic state. If I am wrong, why? What makes these cases different from Israel? Time? Circumstances? If so, Dawud must be wrong?
So, my question. Do other Muslims agree with Dawud on the impossibility of giving away land that was ones under Muslim rule. If you do disagree with him, who would then have the authority to make such a call?
1. Much of the Balkans was ones under Muslims (Ottoman) rule. Up to the gates of Vienna.
The Baltics may be a unique situation. The Muslims were primarily Mongols from both the white hoard and the golden hoard. My ancestors were of the golden hoard and were in much of the Baltics. In Lithuania and Poland were were refered to as Lipkas.
There was peacefull coexistance for centuries. In many instances the lipkas were elevated to status of nobility by the people. The Lipkas served primarily as soldiers. In exchange for land and freedom to practice Islam they protected the countries from invaders. It was a good workable arrangement.
In the 1800s under Czarist rule Russia began invading the Balkans. The first steps taken were massive executions and exiles of the Lipkas. Some managed to migrate to America. With the Lipkas gone the Russians easly dominated the Balkans.
So in the case of the Lipkas there was no war or battle with the People of the nation, this was because of an invader. The numbers of Lipkas within the Balkans was reduced to very small numbers.
Under the Russians very little evidence was left of the Lipkas. Most of the Cemetaries have been destroyed, many served as battlegrounds during WW2 with the Germans. the number of Mosques was reduced to only 21 old, tiny, wooden ones in Poland and Lithuania. Four in Poland and 17 in Lithuania.
after the fall of Communism and the return to power of the Balkan nations some Lipkas have begun to return. But after several generations of little contact with Muslims the People of the balkns have forgotten their Islamic heritage and the returning Lipkas are being seen as invaders. The situation in Lithuania is not very bad, and the Mosques are being rebuilt and the Lipkas population is re-growing. In Poland there seems to be much prejudice against the Lipkas and they are not very welcome. The most recent was a squabble over the building of a Mosque in Warsaw. Poland seems to be reluctant to allow the Lipkas back.
Many of the Lipkas that were deported to Siberia have established a Nation in Siberia and now choose to remain there. Oddly, going back historicaly, many of the Mongols originaly came from Siberia, so in an odd circle they were exiled back to their original homeland.
so going back to the original question, some Muslims are successfully returning and restoring lost Islamic land.
Last edited by Woodrow; 02-07-2007 at 06:20 PM.
Reason: I got Baltic and Balkan mixed up again
Poland and Lithuania are not in the Balkans. They are in the Baltic region.
You are correct. I will pas it off as being early in the morning and I was not awake.
Thank you for the correction.
However, the BALTIC countries also have a long history of Islamic presence and historicaly it was a welcome and peacefull presence. Some of us of Likas ancestries would love to return to the region.
I would not recommend buying any property in Andalucia unless you get a really, really good title insurance contract.
As for lands curently occupied by the Serbs, Croats or, for that matter, the Jews....I don not anticipate any change of ownership in the short run. The Serbs have the Russians behind them and Israel has you know who.
Not sure anyone would even want Sicily at this point. :smile:
You are correct. I will pas it off as being early in the morning and I was not awake.
Thank you for the correction.
However, the BALTIC countries also have a long history of Islamic presence and historicaly it was a welcome and peacefull presence. Some of us of Likas ancestries would love to return to the region.
Well, that makes it even more relevant. I find this somewhat disturbing though I must say. He is essentially saying that Muslims are in their right at any time in the future to demand territory which has clearly not been under Muslim control for a very long time!
I'd really need some reassurances on this. If I don't get them I might need to vote for politicians that want to raise the defense budget :eek:.
i understand that scholars have said the land that is to remain muslim is the land that came under shariah law for time.
so yes al-andalus would apply as shariah was applied there, but just because a muslim army camped in a place doesnt make it muslim land.
i think we will eventually see muslims return to many of these lands, already there is a large and increasingly revert population in spain and this is only likely to increase.
but i think the muslims should concentrate their efforts on restoring islam to lands that have muslim populations but no islamic law and no islamic government and no justice in them due to tyrants supported by the west.
we should resolve those situations first, that is most likely to keep us busy for generations to come anyway.
i understand that scholars have said the land that is to remain muslim is the land that came under shariah law for time.
so yes al-andalus would apply as shariah was applied there, but just because a muslim army camped in a place doesnt make it muslim land.
i think we will eventually see muslims return to many of these lands, already there is a large and increasingly revert population in spain and this is only likely to increase.
but i think the muslims should concentrate their efforts on restoring islam to lands that have muslim populations but no islamic law and no islamic government and no justice in them due to tyrants supported by the west.
we should resolve those situations first, that is most likely to keep us busy for generations to come anyway.
Abu Abdullah
Alright. So essentially you are saying we shouldn't worry for now, since you'll only start demanding the land when you feel strong enough? Why am I not reassured? :rant:
This kinda negates the hope I expressed in another thread with you Dawud, which is the hope that we could keep eachother (west-Islam) alone and let eachother live by our own rules. If you are going to keep claims on what are now European lands, well, than making sure your version of Islam doesn't 'win' in the Muslim world kinda becomes our business as well.
You are talking about something that would only ever be considered as a serious issue once all the other, more important issues, have been resolved...
e.g. establishing shariah law in land already in Muslim control (which is almost impossible...)
Perhaps. But that kinda makes it the interest of the west to assure that shariah law never gets implemented in 'land already under Muslim control', doesn't it? Suddenly, the West meddling in Muslim lands makes more sense. Because obviously, people like Dawud are going to start making claims on Europe as soon as they have sorted out the mess in the Muslim world.
In other words, if Muslims are incapable of ever accepting they have lost land, than we are essentially bound to come into conflict with eachother. This is not a hopeful prospect .
i understand that scholars have said the land that is to remain muslim is the land that came under shariah law for time.
so yes al-andalus would apply as shariah was applied there, but just because a muslim army camped in a place doesnt make it muslim land.
i think we will eventually see muslims return to many of these lands, already there is a large and increasingly revert population in spain and this is only likely to increase.
but i think the muslims should concentrate their efforts on restoring islam to lands that have muslim populations but no islamic law and no islamic government and no justice in them due to tyrants supported by the west.
we should resolve those situations first, that is most likely to keep us busy for generations to come anyway.
Abu Abdullah
This makes me very afraid, and discouraged. The idea that the worldwide population of Muslims is buying its time until they take over more of the world. Very scary.
This makes me very afraid, and discouraged. The idea that the worldwide population of Muslims is buying its time until they take over more of the world. Very scary.
Agreed. So, perhaps some other Muslims can comment. Is it true that Muslims are incapable of ever ceding lands they once owned? Even in peace talks? Is this generally accepted among Muslims scholars? On what basis?
Wait a minute. Since the Franks occupied the Holy Land and surrounding kingdoms for quite awhile, shouldn't they be clamoring to reclaim lost territory? How about the British Empire?
I wouldn't worry about this issue. That is unless some Islamic nation arises with the economic and military power of the U.S. Not exactly a likely prospect anytime soon.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
Wait a minute. Since the Franks occupied the Holy Land and surrounding kingdoms for quite awhile, shouldn't they be clamoring to reclaim lost territory? How about the British Empire?
I wouldn't worry about this issue. That is unless some Islamic nation arises with the economic and military power of the U.S. Not exactly a likely prospect anytime soon.
True enough. But this apparent principle is fascinating nonetheless.
True enough. But this apparent principle is fascinating nonetheless.
I'm not sure fascinating is the right word.
The Kaliphate Kooks make me nervous.
From Daniel Pipes..who I am sure is on everyone's reading list here
What do Islamist terrorists want? The answer should be obvious, but it is not.
A generation ago, terrorists did make clear their wishes. Upon hijacking three airliners in September 1970, for example, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine demanded, with success, the release of Arab terrorists imprisoned in Britain, Switzerland, and West Germany. Upon attacking the B'nai B'rith headquarters and two other Washington, D.C. buildings in 1977, a Hanafi Muslim group demanded the canceling of a feature movie, Mohammad, Messenger of God," $750 (as reimbursement for a fine), the turning over of the five men who had massacred the Hanafi leader's family, plus the killer of Malcolm X.
Such "non-negotiable demands" led to wrenching hostage dramas and attendant policy dilemmas. "We will never negotiate with terrorists," the policymakers declared "Give them Hawaii but get my husband back," pleaded the hostages' wives....(cont)
To me, simply saying..."don't worry, it isn't practical.... yet" is not comforting.
Take, for eg., the cathedral at Cordoba...which was first a Visigoth Chritstian chruch, then torn down and rebuilt as a mosque by the invading Muslims, then architecturally modified and converted to a Catholic cathedral when the muslims retreated from Andalucia. Now, police have to stand guard to keep muslims from praying in the cathedral. If the Spanish think that pulling their head into their shell and pretending everything will be OK is an effective strategy, all I can say is good luck.
Here's a top hadith which reassures me which alot of brothers and sisters havn't heard of:
The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:
"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent. [recorded in Musnad Imam Ahmad (v/273)]
We're under the underlined stage, and all the events before it have occured in our islamic history. Inshaa'Allaah the rest of the prophecy will soon come into effect.
According to the hadith, the prophet (peace be upon him) will be followed by rightly guided caliphs and after those caliphs (Abu Baker, Omar, Uthman and Ali) will come hereditary leadership (all other Caliphs i.e. From the Ummaya Dynasty till the Ottoman's) and after that will come tyrannical rule (today) and after that will come a rightly guided caliphate yet again inshaa'Allaah.
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Re: Muslim position on lost land
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