Questions Posed By Non-Muslims need urgent help!!!

[Mohsin]

Assalamualaikum!

High, i'm new to this site but alhumdulillah i am happy i've come accross it, is wicked. There seem to be a lot of knowledgeable brothers and sisters here, and some very good topics going
I got a few questions i've been having trouble answering. If you know the answers to any of them, please let me know. JazakAllah Khair

1) We all know Qu'ran to be totally scientificically correct right. Well the one ayyah i been having trouble understanding is the one where it says we are allowed to marry our cousins. Isn't this scientificially unethical. It reduces gene pool and in many countries its even banned? Please can someone shed some light on this topic

2) The banning of alcohol. Alcohol was not immediately banned. First it was prohibited during salah, after Hadhrat Umer(RA) complained to the Prophet SAW, and ayyah was revealed “O Believers’ do not approach Salâh while intoxicated.” Then after some fights or so broke up someone told the prophet and then alcohol was totally prohibited. My question is why wasn't it immediately prohibited, and it appears that it only happened when someone complained, why did someone need to complain for Allah SWA to ban it

3) The muslims originally used to pray towards jerusalem. They then changed to Mekkah. Why was it not from the very beginning that they prayed to Mekkah. Some people say it's because the Prophet SAW fell out with the jews. Some people say God changed his mind.Surely this can't be

4) Whats the best way to answer,with good logical reasoning, when someone asks why your not allowed to take or give interest

5) What about when people ask about circumcision. I know that it reduces likely spread of HIV, but as Muslims this should not be an issue as we shudn't be having realationships outside of marriage. Are there are other scientific reasons

6) What about when people ask why do you praise God so much, surely God doesn't require your praises, regardless of how many times you paise him he shud still be that great

7) How do you answer questions of atheists who say why does God let so much bad stuff happen, for example Tsunami.

8) Also how can you explain the way we pray, i've heard non-muslims making fun saying we're going for some exercise. what is the wisdom behind all these different actions

Again JazakAllah for any help to any of these questions

[Bittersteel]

3) The muslims originally used to pray towards jerusalem. They then changed to Mekkah. Why was it not from the very beginning that they prayed to Mekkah. Some people say it's because the Prophet SAW fell out with the jews. Some people say God changed his mind.Surely this can't be

Allah just wanted to test them.There was an article on this i will try to find that..

6) What about when people ask why do you praise God so much, surely God doesn't require your praises, regardless of how many times you paise him he shud still be that great

so he can reward us in afterlife...

correct me if I am wrong.

8) Also how can you explain the way we pray, i've heard non-muslims making fun saying we're going for some exercise. what is the wisdom behind all these different actions

http://-----------------------/scientific_index.html

searching is needed a bit.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

High, i'm new to this site but alhumdulillah i am happy i've come accross it

Im very happy that you've come acroos it as well. Insha'allah you will benefit from your stay here.

1) We all know Qu'ran to be totally scientificically correct right. Well the one ayyah i been having trouble understanding is the one where it says we are allowed to marry our cousins. Isn't this scientificially unethical. It reduces gene pool and in many countries its even banned? Please can someone shed some light on this topic

You must distinguish between permiting something and recommending something. The Qur'an has in no place recommended marriage to cousins, although it has permitted them as they were widely practiced in almost all cultures (Arab, Indian, Persian, European, African, etc.) and it would not be practical to prohibit them. Moreover, it should be noted that the only danger in marrying one's cousin occurs if it becomes a repeated practice because that would result in a decrease in genetic diversity. Buit as long as it is not a repeated practice, there is no significant harm.

2) The banning of alcohol. Alcohol was not immediately banned. First it was prohibited during salah, after Hadhrat Umer(RA) complained to the Prophet SAW, and ayyah was revealed “O Believers’ do not approach Salâh while intoxicated.” Then after some fights or so broke up someone told the prophet and then alcohol was totally prohibited. My question is why wasn't it immediately prohibited, and it appears that it only happened when someone complained, why did someone need to complain for Allah SWA to ban it

The gradual prohibition of alcohol is something behind which there is alot of wisdom. I could post more on the subject but to be brief I would like to point out that alcohol was a deep-rooted practice in arab society - had it been banned at once, no one would have been able to accept Islam! But it was banned after the people increased in Imaan (faith) and were ready for the laws. THis teaches us that the people must be prepared for the laws if the system is to be successful.

Also, many verses of the Qur'an were revealed after certain incidents, but don't be fooled into thinking that the verse was Allah's reaction to the incident. Far from it, Allah swt had planned every verse to be revealed in advance but many were revealed at certain times to give the people an understanding of the practical application of the verses.

I've read your remaining questions and some are very good qestions so I would like to give them a fuller response later, insha'Allah when I have the time as I'm in a rush now.

7

[kadafi]

3) The muslims originally used to pray towards jerusalem. They then changed to Mekkah. Why was it not from the very beginning that they prayed to Mekkah. Some people say it's because the Prophet SAW fell out with the jews. Some people say God changed his mind.Surely this can't be

First of all, welcome to LI Islamic Forum, Insha'Allaah, may your stay here be fruitful.

With that being said, the question that you asked is already answered in the same verse that refers to the Qiblah Baytal-Maqqadis (Jerusalem)

Allaah (Exalted is He) said:

Thus We have made you [true Muslims - real believers of Islamic Monotheism, true followers of Prophet Muhammad SAW and his Sunnah (legal ways)], a Wasat (just) (and the best) nation, that you be witnesses over mankind and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) be a witness over you. And We made the Qiblah (prayer direction towards Jerusalem), which you used to face, only to test those who followed the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from those who would turn on their heels (i.e. disobey the Messenger). Indeed it was great (heavy) except for those whom Allah guided. And Allah would never make your faith (prayers) to be lost (i.e. your prayers offered towards Jerusalem). Truly, Allah is full of kindness, the Most Merciful towards mankind.

Whats the best way to answer,with good logical reasoning, when someone asks why your not allowed to take or give interest

A good article would be:
The Facts About Usury: Why Islam Is Against Lending Money At Interest by Islamic Party Of Britain

What about when people ask about circumcision. I know that it reduces likely spread of HIV, but as Muslims this should not be an issue as we shudn't be having realationships outside of marriage. Are there are other scientific reasons

A scientific view of the matter is provided by islamonline.net:

The hygienic value of circumcision has today been generally conceded, and some physicians recommend the operation as a routine measure for all male infants, it is part of the routine of bathing an uncircumcised boy, to draw back the foreskin and sponge the head of the penis. This is for general cleanliness and also to remove pasty white secretion called smegma, which accumulates under the foreskin and may lead to local irritation unless it is regularly cleansed. Whenever a new born is found to have a tight foreskin (phimosis), the physician usually recommends circumcision.

There is also the Medical Benefits from Circumcision by Dr. Brian J. Morris, from Circ-Online

What about when people ask why do you praise God so much, surely God doesn't require your praises, regardless of how many times you paise him he shud still be that great

We only praise Allaah for our benefit. An article conducted by islamicvoice.com explains it perfectly.

A exerpt of the article:

AllahuAkbar doesn’t make Allah Great

Allah does not require our praises for His benefit. When we say AllahuAkbar, Allah is the Greatest, He does not become greater. He is already the Greatest irrespective of whether we say Allahu Akbar a million times or don’t say it at all. It will make no difference in his greatness. He will yet remain the Greatest.

2. We Praise Allah for our benefit

Allah says in the Quran in chapter 35 verse 15 (35:15) O ye men! It is Ye that have need Of Allah: but Allah is The One Free of all wants, Worthy of all praise. Allah is free of all wants. He does not require us to praise Him. It is we human beings who require Allah and we praise Him for our own benefit.

3. We praise Allah to convince ourselves He is worthy to be followed

We normally follow the advice of a person who is great, famous and important. A person who is intelligent and wise. We will not follow the advice of a stranger who is unknown or a person who is not intelligent nor wise. That is the reason we praise Allah that He is the Greatest, The Most Wise, The All Knowing etc, to first convince ourselves that He is worthy to be followed then we ask Him to guide us and help us.

For more info, click here

How do you answer questions of atheists who say why does God let so much bad stuff happen, for example Tsunami.

When bad things happen, it's either a test for the believers, or to punish those violated His Laws.

Why Does Allah Allow Suffering and Evil in the World?

Bear also in mind that we cannot object to the Decree of Allaah 'cause Allaah (Exalted is He) said:

“He cannot be questioned as to what He does, while they will be questioned.” (al-Anbiya’ 23)

Also how can you explain the way we pray, i've heard non-muslims making fun saying we're going for some exercise. what is the wisdom behind all these different actions

Firstly, you have to understand that we [human beings] cannot fully grasp the infinite Wisdom of Allaah (Exalted is He) since we possess finite comprehension. I do not know the wisdom of the way we pray. Such futile questions raised by these non-muslims is nothing more than pure mockery.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

3) The muslims originally used to pray towards jerusalem. They then changed to Mekkah. Why was it not from the very beginning that they prayed to Mekkah. Some people say it's because the Prophet SAW fell out with the jews. Some people say God changed his mind.Surely this can't be

To add to what Br. Kadafi has posted, I would like to quote Dr. Muzammil H. Siqqiqui who says:

Allah says in the Qur’an, “We see the turning of your face for guidance to the heavens, now we shall turn thy face towards a Qiblah that shall please you…” (2:144) It is very clear from this ayah, that the direction of the Qiblah was changed from Jerusalem to Mecca, because this is what Allah wanted and this was most pleasing to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and to the early community. It is totally wrong to say that the direction of the Qiblah was changed because of the Jewish position towards Islam. It is a historical fact that the Qiblah was changed in the 2nd years of the Hijrah, about 17 months after the migration of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, from Mecca to Medina. During this time the relations between the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and the Jewish community of Medina were quite good. The opposition of the Jews and the breaching of the contracts with the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, started later. So there is no truth in this claim, that the Qiblah changed was a political action. It was purely a religious one, and a spiritual one. The Kabah was the original Qiblah of all the Prophets of Allah, peace be upon them all, even prophets Da’ud and Sulayman, peace be upon them. Even when they built the Masjid in Jerusalem, its Qiblah was towards the south, which is the direction of Mecca. The Kabah was supposed to be, from the beginning, the Qiblah of the believers. Muslims were asked only temporarily to turn towards Jerusalem, so that Allah may test them, in weather they will follow the command of Allah or not. As for as the claim that Muslims believe that the Miraj was a spiritual journey and not physical, this is not correct. Most of the Muslims believe that it was both spiritual and physical, only small groups of people take it as being only a spiritual journey. The Qur’an says, “Glory to be to him, who took his servant on a journey by night, from the Masjid Al-Haraam to the Masjid Al-Aqsa.” (17:1) The very words of this ayah indicate some extraordinary event. Allah, may he be glorified, speaks of his glory, majesty and greatness that he toke his servant during the night from one place to another for merely spiritual experiences, theses expressions are not used. The spiritual experience in visions and dreams happen to many people.

6) What about when people ask why do you praise God so much, surely God doesn't require your praises, regardless of how many times you paise him he shud still be that great

It should be pointed out that God is not in need of our praise or servitude, but it is we who are in need of serving God.

When non-muslims ask why we worship God so often or why we pray so often, I like to point out a few things.

First of all, the question comes from someone who doesn't understand the close relationship in Islam between the Creator and the creation. It is as if I were to ask someone why they speak to their parents or other family members so many times during the day. The answer is obvious, and that is communication is frequent between those who are close to eachother. Similarly, prayer is our opportunity to communicate with our Creator, to seek His Help, to open our heart to him.

Also, we need to look at all the blessings and favours that God has bestowed upon us. Even if we praised God constantly it would not be enough, for we will never be able to repay Him for the faith, family, wealth, food and shelter that He has blessed us with. Through praising God we grow and become stronger.

7) How do you answer questions of atheists who say why does God let so much bad stuff happen, for example Tsunami.

It's always either a test or a punishment. The article provided by Br. Kadafi should explain that insha'Allah.

Keep in mind that if there was no poverty, where would the test be to donate wealth? If there was no injustice, where would the test be to establish justice? If no violence, where would the test be to preserve peace?

Life is a test, and the reason why atheists don't understand is because they have no purpose in life.

8) Also how can you explain the way we pray, i've heard non-muslims making fun saying we're going for some exercise. what is the wisdom behind all these different actions

We should explain that we pray in the way that Allah swt commanded us to pray, because this form of prayer is the most beautiful. In fact, it was the prayer of the prophets mentioned in the Bible as well, and I can provide references for that if you'd like. It is the same manner of prayer in which the angels glorify Allah swt in heaven.

The prayer consists of bowing and prostration not for excercise, but because these actions in prayer demonstrate complete submission to the Almighty Creator and the liberation of a soul from the enslavement of their personal desires into the service of their All-Knowing, Most-Merciful Lord.

I hope this helps.

[Bittersteel]

wasn't there a thread about the two qiblas?


so when the Prophet saws first prayed he prayed towards Jerusalem though it was temporarily?

what's the difference between the miraj and Isra?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

what's the difference between the miraj and Isra?

Isra is the night journey (to Jerusalem), Miraaj is the ascension (into heaven).

[Safa]

7) How do you answer questions of atheists who say why does God let so much bad stuff happen, for example Tsunami.

Assalamu Alaikum,

This is being very one dimensional becasue one is ignoring the Akhirah. The reward one will be getting in the Akhirah will be far greater compared to what one suffered in the duniya. These disasters automatically bring one closer to Allah. It also separates the believers from the disbelievers. There is no such thing as pure evil in Islam; there is some good in everything SubhanAllah

[root]

8) Also how can you explain the way we pray, i've heard non-muslims making fun saying we're going for some exercise. what is the wisdom behind all these different actions

I think one should know when not to engage with morons. And I think individuals who criticise preyer as exercise are just being morons and thus not worthy of your time!!!!

A word of warning to scientific evidence in the Koran though. The Quran can only make a scientific comparison after it is discovered, thus you could be on a hiding to nothing for unfortunately no scientific knowledge has ever been gained as a direct result of your holy book........

Regards

Root

[Mohsin]

A word of warning to scientific evidence in the Koran though. The Quran can only make a scientific comparison after it is discovered, thus you could be on a hiding to nothing for unfortunately no scientific knowledge has ever been gained as a direct result of your holy book........

Regards

Root

I don't think this is true

Ibn Hafeez was a muslim and he discovered blood circulation 400 years after the Prophet SAW. 1000 years after the prophet Graham Henry used Ibn Hafeez's findings and made it know to the western world
Also it was arabs who made advancements in astronomy after the revelation of the Qu'ran and naturally they used verses in the glorious Qu'ran. There are several such examples i can only remember these two off the top off my head but i am sure another brother here can provide a link to a site about this

Regarding this topic, JazakAllah Khair for all these replies they've helped immensely. InshAllah if i have an more questions i will ask you guys again

[Abu Zakariya]

As-salaamu 'alaykum

Actually, Root...

ibn Hadjar al-'Asqalani refuted the scientists, in the 14th Century (I believe), by saying:

"A lot of anatomists are claiming that the sperm of the man doesn't play a part in the creation of the baby. They claim that it's only purpose is to make the menstrational blood to stiffen so that a baby can be created. But this opinion goes against the word of the Prophet, who told us that the man, with his sperm, contributes as well as the female."

It was not until 1759 that the first non-muslim anatomist, Caspar Friedrich Wolff, came with the theory of epigenes (which is the most popular theory which tells us that the embryo goes through stages in the development, first being an undifferentiated egg, in contrast to the then prevailing theory that a microscopical being just gets bigger and bigger as time goes).

So, you were wrong...


By the way, if you were right, that would still not take away the miraculous feature of the Qur'aan.
I also have to say that a whole lot of people exaggarate when it comes to these kind of things. The Qur'aan isn't a book of science, so every little thing shouldn't be interpreted into a statement about astronomy, anatomy etc.
One of the things that I do feel should be mentioned is the description of the development of the embryo, though.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

A word of warning to scientific evidence in the Koran though. The Quran can only make a scientific comparison after it is discovered, thus you could be on a hiding to nothing for unfortunately no scientific knowledge has ever been gained as a direct result of your holy book........

Hi Root,
I'm not sure why you're bringing this up in this thread when I already responded to your post in the following thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=3924
I'm still waiting for a response.

Thanks

[czgibson]

When bad things happen, it's either a test for the believers, or to punish those violated His Laws.

I find this idea a little worrying. Is it a common belief among Muslims that the tsunami was a test or a punishment? What exactly is the test for? That part I don't understand at all. If it is a punishment, I assume that means that the thousands of children and babies who died on that day were being punished for not being pious enough? I seriously cannot understand how anyone could think like this and still think of themselves as a good person.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hey Callum,
Muslims have a special outlook on life and the world. We believe that God has put us here as a test - those who do good deeds will be rewarded, and those who do bad deeds will be punished.

in the case of the tsunami, I believe it was a test for some and a punishment for others. For those people who sinned and thought that they would never be accountable to God - this was their punishment. However, this group represents a tiny minority of the much larger population that was affected.

Therefore, for most people it was a test. Many were tested with tragedy so that they may show patience. As God mentions in the Qur'an:
29:2-3 Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested? We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false.

When we are put through severe trials it distinguishes those who have true faith in God from those who do not. Unfortunately, it is often tragedy which turns people to God as they realize that only material pleasures are only temporary and they can be taken away in a second. As God says in the Qur'an:
39:8 When some trouble toucheth man, he crieth unto his Lord, turning to Him in repentance: but when He bestoweth a favour upon him as from Himself, (man) doth forget what he cried and prayed for before

In fact, if you read the stories of those people who reverted to Islam, many of them lived very difficult lives and it was this sufferring which caused them to turn to God for help and guidance. One example that comes to mind is the story of Dr. Jeffery Lang, a math professor who was a former atheist. He rejected all religion because he couldn't understand why God would let him have an abusive father who constantly beat his mother. He couldn't understand why he had to go through the difficulties that he did, but he understood when he read the Qur'an, he understood the purpose of life.

Thus, the Tsunami was a test for many people, just as the Children of Israel were tested under their enslavement to Pharoah. As God mentions in the Qur'an:
2:49 And remember [O Children of Israel], We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and spared your women-folk; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

It was a test of faith, so that they would not despair but would have faith in God and do what is right.

But the Tsunami was also a test for others. It was a test for me and you, to see if we would lend help to those dying people. It was a test to see if the people of the world would be generous.

I encourage you to read the following link as it will help make things much more clear:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503544478

Peace!

[czgibson]

Thank you for your thoughtful replies. I see that I misunderstood the punishment issue with regard to children and babies - silly me.

That was also a very interesting fatwa you directed me to - I particularly liked the point about driving. It certainly is a miracle that more people aren't hurt, the way some people drive!

The punishment issue I now think I understand, and it seems very logical from the Muslim point of view (or indeed any theistic point of view - Christians often use the same argument). I'm not yet totally clear on the test issue. I understand that Allah could be testing our charitable response to a suffering person, but surely you do not have to be a believer to be charitable? I myself sent some money to help the tsunami victims (a small act I know) and yet I am an atheist! Perhaps if I was a believer I would have done more to help - is that the implication of what you say?

From my point of view, the tsunami was an entirely natural disaster, with scientific causes that can be demonstrably ascertained. I see no need for any further explanation, but I am always interested to see how people who believe in God/Allah/JHVH respond to such questions.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

That was also a very interesting fatwa you directed me to - I particularly liked the point about driving. It certainly is a miracle that more people aren't hurt, the way some people drive!

I'm glad you found it interesting. :brother:

I'm not yet totally clear on the test issue. I understand that Allah could be testing our charitable response to a suffering person, but surely you do not have to be a believer to be charitable? I myself sent some money to help the tsunami victims (a small act I know) and yet I am an atheist!

Okay, I see what you are saying. The answer to that is that you may be fulfilling the test of deeds, but you are not fulfilling the test of faith. It is a totally different aspect of the test, but for us to be truly successful, we need to complete the whole test.

It all comesback to a Muslim's perception of life. We believe that God has placed humanity here on earth as His viceroy, His deputy, to enjoin what is good and to forbid what is evil. We believe that He has created us out of His infinite love and mercy so that we may serve Him by returning that love in its deepest form - worship. So our position in this world is a temporary position of service, where we serve Our Creator by worshipping Him and taking care of His creation. Those who fulfill this task are rewarded in the next life.

Now the case of an atheist who does good deeds is that he may be doing part of his duty on earth, but he is missing the main part! Moreover, he doesn't even know why he is there to begin with! Atheism is a very dangerous position because believing that existence ends at death leads to materialism and a race to acquire benefits of this world at the expense of others. It also leads to a rejection of what atheists call 'traditional' values (what we call divinely ordained values) and thus we find secularism and immorality on the rise. With every movie that comes out, the tolerance of violence, drugs, nudity etc. all rise. Suicides are increasing as people don't realize their purpose in life.

Now there can obviously be a person who does good deeds but if he is not fulfilling his major role, its not very effective. I can give you an analogy - say someone is hired for a job, and there are certain job requirements, one of which is that they must come to work in professional attire. Now what if someone fulfills this requirement, they always come to work in a spotless suit, yet they don't know how to do any of the other tasks they are supposed to perform! They don't have any background education, no experience, none of the skills, in fact, they don't even realize that they have this job!

Such a person would not make a very good employee. So, to me, atheists and similar non-muslims who do good deeds are like employees in suits without any other abilities, if you'll forgive me for saying so.

Perhaps if I was a believer I would have done more to help - is that the implication of what you say?

That's part of it as well, because then you would have to do it as a religious obligation, but part of it is also as I mentioned, that your deeds would be more fruitful if they were reflective of faith in God.

From my point of view, the tsunami was an entirely natural disaster, with scientific causes that can be demonstrably ascertained.

I don't see any conflict with your view and mine. God created the laws of science to begin with, He knows how to use the tools He made.

Warm regards

[Bittersteel]

I heard angels gaurd the Kaaba sharif.How come it was then once partially destroyed and also the black stone?

[czgibson]

Now the case of an atheist who does good deeds is that he may be doing part of his duty on earth, but he is missing the main part! Moreover, he doesn't even know why he is there to begin with! Atheism is a very dangerous position because believing that existence ends at death leads to materialism and a race to acquire benefits of this world at the expense of others. It also leads to a rejection of what atheists call 'traditional' values (what we call divinely ordained values) and thus we find secularism and immorality on the rise. With every movie that comes out, the tolerance of violence, drugs, nudity etc. all rise. Suicides are increasing as people don't realize their purpose in life.

You make many points in this succinct paragraph. Let me answer them one by one:

1. I absolutely agree that an atheist usually does not know why he is on Earth to begin with. The "meaning of life" is, from my point of view, a mystery. However, this does not upset me in the slightest.

2. I believe, as you say, that my existence will end at death. The word materialism, however, can be interpreted in two ways. Materialism is, at the moment, the dominant philosophical view in Western thought, and I subscribe to it. It is the view that all that exists is matter (i.e. no gods, ghosts, spirits, souls etc.) The other way of interpreting it is "the race for material gain". I do not subscribe to this view. I use money to keep myself alive, and I try not to waste money on unnecessary items. It upsets me greatly to see people waste money when there are people starving in the world. I am opposed to extreme forms of capitalism which tend in this direction, and for this reason I think the Islamic banking system is far more ethical than the standard Western banking system.

3. Regarding the atheists' supposed rejection of traditional values, I respectfully disagree. I believe, like many atheists, that the ethical imperatives of most religions are admirable. Atheism is a metaphysical position; it should have nothing to do with morality. I believe morality is important as it helps humans get along with each other, and the more moral people are, the less likely it is that wars and conflicts will occur. You say that secularism and immorality are on the rise - I do not think you should yoke these two things together. They are not mutually dependent. I am very much in favour of secularism, but I oppose immorality. With regard to your point about movies, I agree that our tolerance for violence etc. is increasing. The increase in violence does worry me somewhat, but I have no problem with drugs or nudity, as long as such actions do not harm others. I believe it is up to parents to decide what their children should be watching, and any adults who are upset by a film should simply switch it off or leave the cinema.

Such a person would not make a very good employee. So, to me, atheists and similar non-muslims who do good deeds are like employees in suits without any other abilities, if you'll forgive me for saying so.

I am always ready to forgive, especially in an interesting discussion like this.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Callum,

1. I absolutely agree that an atheist usually does not know why he is on Earth to begin with. The "meaning of life" is, from my point of view, a mystery. However, this does not upset me in the slightest.

I find this puzzling. Does it not upset you to know that you may find 5, 10, or 20 years from now that you have been wasting your life? Doesn't it upset you to know that you may be completely missing the purpose of life while getting caught up with worldly gains? I would appreciate it if you could explain this a little.

2. I believe, as you say, that my existence will end at death. The word materialism, however, can be interpreted in two ways. Materialism is, at the moment, the dominant philosophical view in Western thought, and I subscribe to it. It is the view that all that exists is matter (i.e. no gods, ghosts, spirits, souls etc.)

Yes, you're right although I normally use materialism for the second explanation you provide:

The other way of interpreting it is "the race for material gain". I do not subscribe to this view. I use money to keep myself alive, and I try not to waste money on unnecessary items. It upsets me greatly to see people waste money when there are people starving in the world. I am opposed to extreme forms of capitalism which tend in this direction, and for this reason I think the Islamic banking system is far more ethical than the standard Western banking system.

I'm impressed by your broad minded views, but would you agree with me if I said that such views are becoming rare?

3. Regarding the atheists' supposed rejection of traditional values, I respectfully disagree. I believe, like many atheists, that the ethical imperatives of most religions are admirable. Atheism is a metaphysical position; it should have nothing to do with morality. I believe morality is important as it helps humans get along with each other, and the more moral people are, the less likely it is that wars and conflicts will occur. You say that secularism and immorality are on the rise - I do not think you should yoke these two things together. They are not mutually dependent. I am very much in favour of secularism, but I oppose immorality.

In my opinion, Atheism naturally gives rise to secularism which in return removes the purpose from people's lives. This in turn leads to hedonism which I feel leads to immorality.

With regard to your point about movies, I agree that our tolerance for violence etc. is increasing. The increase in violence does worry me somewhat, but I have no problem with drugs or nudity, as long as such actions do not harm others.

Do you have a problem with the fact that drugs and nudity are becoming more and more rampant in society, due to the influence of the media? Do you not see that as reflective of an absense of moral values? Would you like to live in a society with a high level of drugs and nudity?

Do you see any problems with the fact that western society is heading towards the image of a promiscuous society where drugs/nudity are rampant? Do you think that this could be a productive society that would better humanity or would it only become further enslaved to selfish desires and lusts?

I believe it is up to parents to decide what their children should be watching, and any adults who are upset by a film should simply switch it off or leave the cinema.

According to such a criteria, children will never be able to enter a cinema or even leave the seclusion of their houses again!


Anyway, Callum, I think a discussion of the purpose of life is most important here, so I'm going to recommend either of the following links:

Purpose of Life - Part 1(picks up after the first minute) and Part 2 (audio lecture)

What is the Purpose of Life? (Article)

Both are excellent quality discussions on the purpose of life from an Islamic perspective, and they should be the first thing one should study when looking into Islam. Please take some time to either read or listen, I'm sure you will find it very interesting. :brother:

Peace!

[czgibson]

Hello again, Ansar al-'Adl,

This discussion has got to the stage where we are writing very long posts to each other, as might be expected! If people find this annoying then I am happy to stop - but I would rather carry on the discussion, and represent the atheist point of view. You can use me to sharpen your debating skills (which are very good, I might add). On another forum I got told off for "hijacking" a thread arguing about George W Bush with another person.

I find this puzzling. Does it not upset you to know that you may find 5, 10, or 20 years from now that you have been wasting your life? Doesn't it upset you to know that you may be completely missing the purpose of life while getting caught up with worldly gains? I would appreciate it if you could explain this a little.

I would ask this question: Who says life has to have a purpose? It's certainly not obvious to me that this must be the case. There are two kinds of living thing in the world, plants and animals. I believe the purpose of life for humans (I would rather call it the aim of life) is the same as the purpose of life for whales, horses, and other animals: to survive and reproduce. This could include making friends and getting on with people - useful skills for surival. As I said before, the idea that the purpose of life is a mystery does not upset me at all.

I'm impressed by your broad minded views, but would you agree with me if I said that such views are becoming rare?

Well, perhaps the view about Islamic banking is quite rare in the West (although in recent years we have seen a surge in the anti-capitalist movement, which I believe springs from a very similar impulse), but I think you will find that most atheists applaud the moral systems of Islam, Christianity and other religions. (Can I also point out that the moral codes of most religions are, at heart, very similar in content?)

In my opinion, Atheism naturally gives rise to secularism which in return removes the purpose from people's lives. This in turn leads to hedonism which I feel leads to immorality.

Perhaps there are some cases where what you say is true, but I believe that someone calling themselves an atheist and then assuming they can behave selfishly and immorally has got completely the wrong idea. Most serious, philosophical atheists would see no reason to abandon the moral codes at the heart of religion.

Do you have a problem with the fact that drugs and nudity are becoming more and more rampant in society, due to the influence of the media? Do you not see that as reflective of an absense of moral values?...
Do you see any problems with the fact that western society is heading towards the image of a promiscuous society where drugs/nudity are rampant? Do you think that this could be a productive society that would better humanity or would it only become further enslaved to selfish desires and lusts?

I do not believe these issues have an impact on morality, as long as they do not harm others. In my view, people should be free to take drugs if that is their choice. Education on drugs is something that is badly needed all over the world. If used in moderation, with full knowledge of their effects, the impact on a person's health from using most drugs is minimal. I could go on and on about this, but perhaps in another thread, as it is off-topic.

With regard to nudity, again I am liberal. People should be free to go to nudist beaches if they wish (as they do in huge numbers all over Europe, particularly in Germany), also, people should be free to view pornography if they wish. The one proviso that I would have about nudity is that it should be allowed only in controlled areas - not in the street, in full public view for example.

Your last point is fascinating - would a society where nudity and drugs are rife be productive for humanity? Well, why not? Look at the ancient Greeks. That society was actually far more liberal than I would like on these issues, and yet I cannot think of a society that has done more for civilization.

According to such a criteria, children will never be able to enter a cinema or even leave the seclusion of their houses again!

Perhaps we are judging by different criteria, but I'm afraid I don't understand you here. A children's film, with a U certificate (in Britain that is) is very unlikely to include drugs or nudity. In fact, I can state categorically that it would not include such things. A film for people aged 15 and over, maybe.

Anyway, Callum, I think a discussion of the purpose of life is most important here, so I'm going to recommend either of the following links:

I was only able to read the article here because of my inferior computer, but this is where the differences between us become most clear, I am afraid. I should point out that I have a philosophy degree, and that the initial arguments regarding a creator/deity presented in this article are so old, and have been refuted so many times by so many eminent philosophers (Kant, Hume, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche and Russell to name but five), that it is just impossible to take them seriously. I am sorry if this sounds offensive, but it is the view you will find in Universities throughout the Western world. The history of the Qu'ran and Islam that follows is very interesting, but it is somewhat undermined by the weak opening arguments. (I do not mean to belittle the Qu'ran or Islam here - they are together among the very greatest contributions to world civilization. That fact is unarguable.)

One of the arguments used seems to me to prove just the opposite of what the author intends - this is the point that all human civilizations throughout history have believed in a god, gods or a creator of some sort. This surely shows the limitless capacity of human ingenuity, not that there therefore must be a god. Baal, Ra, Zeus and many others are gods that are now "dead" i.e. people do not believe in them any more. Could this be the future of the gods that people believe in today?

Also, I must point out one factual inaccuracy in the article - the author speaks of "Buddhist gods". In fact Buddhism is an atheistic religion - Buddhists do not believe in any gods at all. The first that he mentions is "Gautama". This is the surname of the first Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama is his full name). Buddha was not a god, but a man.

Finally, here are two quotes from the article:

The theory of evolution says that man evolved from the ape, rather than being created by a Creator. Although this theory has no academic or scientific substance, it gained favor with so many people because it appealed to the doubts they had about the God that they were told to believe in.

The creation of the universe is explained by astrophysicists in a widely accepted phenomenon, popularly known as the “Big Bang.” It is supported by observational and experimental data gathered by astronomers and astrophysicists for decades.

Can you see the problem here? The person who wrote this has very little genuine understanding of science if he believes these two statements are true. He incorrectly describes the Big Bang as a "widely accepted phenomenon". It is in fact a theory, just like evolution, only there is far less evidence for it. There is plenty of evidence for an expanding universe, but the Big Bang at the beginning is little more than a speculation. It is also relatively controversial among scientists, unlike evolution.

Right, I must stop. This post is too long already. I apologise for this, and I also apologise if any of my words are considered offensive. I do not wish to upset anybody, I am merely trying to explain why you will find so many atheists in the West. If you can look through these arguments and come up with better ones to answer them, you may just be able to change the world.

Peace to all!