"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:6-9)
"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die." (Deuteronomy 17:3-5)
"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:13)
RIGHT! jus wanted to get it started. It is often believed that the Bible gives absolute religious freedom to everyone. Most of the Christians in the United States and the the West think that the freedom of choice and speech that they have comes originally from the Bible. The punishment of apostasy in Christianity is Death, and not only that, the one who tries to convert you is also to be put the death. Note even whole cities are to be destroyed.
Last edited by Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн; 10-02-2006 at 02:13 AM.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
lol..no, there is no such a punishment. and some converts to Islams from christinity on this board are a good example to this. still alive and kicking
Because you have quoted Old Testament you may also ask about Jews. I doubt they are willing to kill any apostate...
It seems that this thread will soon change into "why christians don't obey Law of Old Testament"
...but if your question is about "ruling about apostasy", then the answer is: there is no punishment.
n.
The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.
lol..no, there is no such a punishment. and some converts to Islams from christinity on this board are a good example to this. still alive and kicking
Because you have quoted Old Testament you may also ask about Jews. I doubt they are willing to kill any apostate...
It seems that this thread will soon change into "why christians don't obey Law of Old Testament"
...but if your question is about "ruling about apostasy", then the answer is: there is no punishment.
n.
Why though? Jesus did say in the NT that he did not come to break the laws of old but to reinforce them, u have to realize that these laws aren't established as of Today!
Jesus aslo said: "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."
As is see it, thats the way He fullfilled the Law. not by sticking to letter but reinforcing the spirit of it. It's sin to speak ill of anyone (for whatever reason you have..). Argumentum a minori ad maius - we shouldn't kill anyone for whatever reason we have to do this.
Duskiness
clearly you have not been to Egypt... you just don't know what the copts do there to their priests/nuns who convert to Islam......
i was there 2 times . but you're right, I know little about Copts. But i doubt' they have religious law that says they should kill apostates. If they have done something like this, i think it was agains their faith. We both know that people quite often don't listen to peace massege of their faith...
BUT!!!
..i was wrong to say there is no penalty
there is. It's EXCOMMUNICATION. You're not allowed to receive communion and attend Mass. But i doubt that apostates care for this.
so if you want you can convert to Christianity for a day and then turn back to Islam. No hurm will be done to you
n.
The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.
Why though? Jesus did say in the NT that he did not come to break the laws of old but to reinforce them, u have to realize that these laws aren't established as of Today!
Actually, Jesus did not say he had come to reinforce the laws. Instead he said he had come to fulfill them:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Matthew 5:17-18, King James Version)
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18, New International Version)
Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them. I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved. (Matthew 5:17-18, New Living Translation)
When Jesus had died and been ressurected, he had done just that: fulfilled his purpose to bring God and his people in direct relationship again. That means that those laws who God had put upon his people to keep them 'pure enough' (i.e. food laws, purity laws, sacrifices ...) became obsolete, and are replaced by Jesus' own words (see duskiness' post re murder etc.)
The most important quote of Jesus is possibly this:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:36-40
You gotta love Jesus!
I agree with duskiness: there is no punishment for apostasy in Christianity. The judgement will be God's in the after-life!
Apostates are welcomed back into the Christian family, if they repent and wish to return.
Peace
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
Jesus aslo said: "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."
n.
But that doesn't necessarily refer to apostates. It could refer to just killing or harming someone without a legit reason.
If you say this refers also to apostates then your contradicting yourself.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
What happens in the afterlife to people who apostate from Christianity?
They have chosen in life to live in separation from God, and will continue to do so in the after-life.
I do not know of any specifics off the top of my head, but I can look if you want me to.
There are some descriptions about 'what hell is like' in the Bible, but I don't think most Christians focus very much on that. Perhaps it is seen to be too punitive and threatening ... I don't know.
The important part of God's punishment is not the sulphur and hellfire, but to be separated from God. For us as believers that must be the worst punsihment possible!
But then you could argue that those who don't seek God in the first place, won't mind being separated from God at all ...
Peace
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
I have never been charged with a criminal act and no one has threatened my life.
I guess I’m not the only one who promotes religious tolerance and freedom of religion and speach.
That really isn't the point first of all, How religion was is not how religion is.
apostasy, being punishable by death in Islam is not something that I am ashamed of and obviously here in the US it can't be carried out as a vigilante act either.
Actually, Jesus did not say he had come to reinforce the laws. Instead he said he had come to fulfill them:
When Jesus had died and been ressurected, he had done just that: fulfilled his purpose to bring God and his people in direct relationship again. That means that those laws who God had put upon his people to keep them 'pure enough' (i.e. food laws, purity laws, sacrifices ...) became obsolete, and are replaced by Jesus' own words (see duskiness' post re murder etc.)
The most important quote of Jesus is possibly this:
You gotta love Jesus!
I agree with duskiness: there is no punishment for apostasy in Christianity. The judgement will be God's in the after-life!
Apostates are welcomed back into the Christian family, if they repent and wish to return.
Peace
In the second quote he said himself he did not come to abolish them
Fulfill?
–verb (used with object)
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3. to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.): a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time: He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
5. to develop the full potential of (usually used reflexively): She realized that she could never fulfill herself in such work.
In the second quote he said himself he did not come to abolish them
Fulfill?
–verb (used with object)
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3. to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.): a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time: He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
5. to develop the full potential of (usually used reflexively): She realized that she could never fulfill herself in such work.
Yes, Jesus did not abolish/destroy/disregard the old laws ... they were God given and valid in their time!
But when Jesus completed his mission and his purpose with his death and resurrection, he completed/finished/satisfied/fulfilled them.
The old laws, which God had to put upon people, became obsolete/finished with/were brought to an end. Jesus put an end to them, and instead started a New Covenant!
I don't expect you to believe what I believe. I am just trying to explain what I believe.
It is getting late, and I have to get some sleep.
Peace
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
They have chosen in life to live in separation from God, and will continue to do so in the after-life.
Why do you assume that apostasy is separation from god? :grumbling Apostasy is the renunciation of a religious faith, not all religious faith. With the many religions, only one (Maybe none), can be correct. So apostasy could be the rejection of a false religion and acceptance of a true religion.
Why do you assume that apostasy is separation from god? :grumbling Apostasy is the renunciation of a religious faith, not all religious faith. With the many religions, only one (Maybe none), can be correct. So apostasy could be the rejection of a false religion and acceptance of a true religion.
If I understood glo correctly, she was referring to the punishment for apostasy, which is excommunication(from the Catholic Church). If one goes to his grave without accepting Christ, then the "punishment" is much worse, which is separation from God. Personally, I believe that is Hell.
If I understood glo correctly, she was referring to the punishment for apostasy, which is excommunication(from the Catholic Church). If one goes to his grave without accepting Christ, then the "punishment" is much worse, which is separation from God. Personally, I believe that is Hell.
That might be true if Christ is god. What if Christ is not god?
That might be true if Christ is god. What if Christ is not god?
That is between you and your own religious convictions or lack of. I was making no judgement about your after-life, just responding to a discussion of religious belief.
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