I have moved a discussion to this thread which exposes the blatant ignorance and inability of one anti-islamist to provide evidence to support his claim. The reader will observe how the anti-islamist, mansio, simply repeats his allegation (a logical fallacy known as argumentum ad nauseam) without provide any proof to back up his assertion (namely, that the Qur'an contains a man-made story) and makes numerous other logical fallacies in the process. If mansio tries to lie low and resurface in other threads with the same allegations, as he has done in the past, we will challenge him to return to this thread and substantiate his claim, which he will never be able to do. This discussion he initiated will serve as an example of his own incompetence.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
You claim its taken from the bible however the stories in the Quran are completely different from the bible and show the truth of what occured.
As the church changed every story in the bible just like they changed the Limbo thing, Allah swt sent the Quran to show the people the truth from the falsehoods
There are no Seven Sleepers in the Bible. It's just a legend from folklore that became famous with Christians and was adopted by the Quran in sura al-Kahf.
I don't understand why that critic comes from Muslims who believe in the Quran which contains a number of man-made stories.
The legend of the Seven Sleepers from Christian folklore for example.
Do you have any EVIDENCE that the story of the sleepers from the Qur'an is from folklore? No, of course not. More of your baseless lies. Are you incapable of providing even a shred of evidence to support your claims? If you could prove to me that this story was folklore I would gladly accept your proof, but of course you can't. So by making claims that have no basis you're just wasting our time and your time.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
There are no Seven Sleepers in the Bible. It's just a legend from folklore that became famous with Christians and was adopted by the Quran in sura al-Kahf.
Mansio,
I've been reading your posts (not all of them) and Ansar's posts refuting your claims and hallucinations countless times.
For once, just write sensibly and don't blabber.
If Christianity is your faith, that's fine with me, I shan't force you to become muslim or anything like that, but coming up with such horrendous claims as above without anything to back you up just exposes you as a hoax.
If you can't handle the burden of proof then stop writing and let other people who are sincere in finding the truth write and reciprocate.
Truly, your posts are an embodiment of blatant ignorance.
Takumi Nakashima WattaquLlah(a) wa yu'allimukumuLlah(u)
(Be Mindful of Allah and He will teach you)
People often ask Muslims how the Bible could've been corrupted.
Well, mansio is a great example of how it could've been corrupted. We have something called isnad, you don't. It is okay to just burst out claims without giving proof, whereas in islam, this is a no-no.
Look for "seven sleepers wikipedia" then follow every link you find.
If you don't like wikipedia, try encyclopaedia universalis for example or just "seven sleepers".
We have a cleric and writer Grégoire de Tours (Gregory of Tours) who lived from 538 to 594. He wrote many books of history and theology. One of his books is a translation in Latin "Passion of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus" of a book in Greek about the Seven Sleepers written in Ephesus in the middle of the 5th century.
Does mansio provide evidence to support his allegation that the story fo the sleepers is man-made? let us see...
format_quote Originally Posted by mansio
Look for "seven sleepers wikipedia" then follow every link you find.
This is not evidence that the story of the sleepers is man-made. Mansio brought the allegation so he should bring the evidence.
If you don't like wikipedia, try encyclopaedia universalis for example or just "seven sleepers".
This is not evidence that the story of the sleepers is man-made. Mansio brought the allegation so he should bring the evidence.
We have a cleric and writer Grégoire de Tours (Gregory of Tours) who lived from 538 to 594. He wrote many books of history and theology. One of his books is a translation in Latin "Passion of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus" of a book in Greek about the Seven Sleepers written in Ephesus in the middle of the 5th century.
This is not evidence that the story of the sleepers is man-made. Mansio brought the allegation so he should bring the evidence.
Once again mansio fails to support his baseless lies with even a shred of evidence!!
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
I'm happy that at least the origin of the Seven Sleepers story as predating the Quran is not denied. One of my "lies" that dissolves. The Seven Sleepers were Christians by the way.
Why do most links say it is a legend ?
If the story indeed circulated amongst Christians before Islam, this really isn't a problem at all. I mean, it is only natural. I would be worried if it didn't, because then it would seem that there is no basis to the story.
Does mansio provide evidence to support his basless lie that the Qur'an contains a man-made story? Let us see...
format_quote Originally Posted by mansio
I'm happy that at least the origin of the Seven Sleepers story as predating the Quran is not denied.
Red herring. This is not evidence that the story of the sleepers is man-made. Mansio brought the allegation so he should bring the evidence.
The Seven Sleepers were Christians by the way.
Red herring. This is not evidence that the story of the sleepers is man-made. Mansio brought the allegation so he should bring the evidence.
Why do most links say it is a legend ?
Appeal to authority.This is not evidence that the story of the sleepers is man-made. Mansio brought the allegation so he should bring the evidence.
Once again mansio fails to support his baseless lies with even a shred of evidence!! Instead he makes three logical fallacies in all of the three points he makes!
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
There are no Seven Sleepers in the Bible. It's just a legend from folklore that became famous with Christians and was adopted by the Quran in sura al-Kahf.
This is doesn't prove that the event of Seven Sleepers never happened.
I'm happy that at least the origin of the Seven Sleepers story as predating the Quran is not denied.
Because the story is a narration of event that happened before lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). How can you even make this an issue? Here is an advice, read and understand from a valid source on the topic before making a comment.
It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and obedience to Allâh, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allâh, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masâkîn (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salât, and gives the Zakât, and keep their word whenever they make a promise, and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of persecution, hardship, and war. Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaqûn (the pious).
1) My opinions, you call "lies", are not originally "my" opinions, but are opinions shared by most of educated people from the Western world.
2) On an history forum for example, my "opinion" on the Seven Sleepers would be accepted without discussion. The discussion would be on who wrote the 5th century legend in Ephesus and from which older folklore elements did it derive.
3) Our Western scholarship has given us enough information to be able to distinguish between what is legendary and what is real. We trust that scholarship and we do not walk around with proofs in our pockets that the earth rotates around the sun or that Cinderella is an imaginary character. It is just assumed as such.
To give another example, I was taken aback when some of you denied that there were creation stories from clay in pagan religions. Here in the West every cultured person knows there are such stories and will not deny it. As I did not have the proofs of what everybody believes as true, why should I, it took me a while until I found texts from historians that corroborated my "opinion".
4) When we will have finished discussing the Seven Sleepers legend, we will have to address the legends of Alexander the Great, of Noah and the Flood, of Abraham and the Idols, of Cain's raven, of Moses and al-Khidr, of Solomon and the queen of Sheba, just to mention the most important in the Quran.
5) At the moment, the only "proofs" I have that the Seven Sleepers story is man-made, is that there is no proofs that the Seven Sleepers have existed (unless you are going to give me some), and the fact that most sites call it a legend.
Does mansio save himself from the humiliation of being caught red-handed making an allegation he cannot support? Let's see...
format_quote Originally Posted by mansio
1) My opinions, you call "lies", are not originally "my" opinions, but are opinions shared by most of educated people from the Western world.
Fallacy of appeal to majority. Mansio has just committed what we call argumentum ad populum. This is not evidence that the story of the sleepers is man-made. Even if the majority of people believed this, it still doesn't make it true. The majority of educated people in the world are also either Christian, Muslim or Hindu.
2) On an history forum for example, my "opinion" on the Seven Sleepers would be accepted without discussion.
Red herring. This is not evidence that the story of the sleepers is man-made. Mansio brought the allegation so he should bring the evidence.
3) Our Western scholarship has given us enough information to be able to distinguish between what is legendary and what is real.
Yet mansio refuses to present this so-called 'information' he allegedly posesses!
We trust that scholarship and we do not walk around with proofs in our pockets that the earth rotates around the sun or that Cinderella is an imaginary character. It is just assumed as such.
Red herring. This is not evidence that the story of the sleepers is man-made. Mansio brought the allegation so he should bring the evidence.
To give another example, I was taken aback when some of you denied that there were creation stories from clay in pagan religions. Here in the West every cultured person knows there are such stories and will not deny it. As I did not have the proofs of what everybody believes as true, why should I, it took me a while until I found texts from historians that corroborated my "opinion"
Red herring. This is not evidence that the story of the sleepers is man-made. Mansio brought the allegation so he should bring the evidence.
As an aside, all you did in the discussion of clay was produce quotes from some historians that agreed with you as opposed to bring historical evidence like that which I brought concerning the babylonian mythology where I exposed your ignorance concerning Berosus's narrative and the missing fragments. Why have you abandoned that debate?
4) When we will have finished discussing the Seven Sleepers legend, we will have to address the legends of Alexander the Great, of Noah and the Flood, of Abraham and the Idols, of Cain's raven, of Moses and al-Khidr, of Solomon and the queen of Sheba, just to mention the most important in the Quran.
Instead of providing evidence, mansio brings up other allegations!!
5) At the moment, the only "proofs" I have that the Seven Sleepers story is man-made, is that there is no proofs that the Seven Sleepers have existed (unless you are going to give me some), and the fact that most sites call it a legend.
Argument from ignorance.. We refute this with the simple statement, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"! Mansio now wants us to prove that the story of the sleepers is NOT man-made!!
Wrong move! Mansio brought the allegation so HE should bring the evidence.
If mansio attempts to respond in any thread other than this one, we will challenge him to return here and continue this discussion until he recants his baseless assertion and admit that he has made claims against Islam without any evidence - something an honest person would not do.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
Show me YOUR proofs of the existence of the Seven Sleepers. I think that would be the final argument against my position.
Do you also have proofs of Adam and Eve's existence btw ?
Show me YOUR proofs of the existence of the Seven Sleepers.
Wrong! YOU made the allegation so the burden of proof is upon you. Are you admitting that you called the story of the sleepers 'a man-made tale', without any evidence to support your claim??
If you do have evidence then show it to me. You're going to learn now that you shouldn't raise these allegations if you don't have evidence to support them!
The ball's in your court mansio. You made the claim and this time we won't let you weasel out. You will either provide evidence to support your claim or recant your original allegation as a baseless assertion.
The burden of proof is on you to prove what you said. If I had claimed that the story of the sleepers is confirmed from historical evidence, then the burden of proof would be on me. But I never said that. You claimed that the story was man-made, so either support your claim, or admit your mistake.
Do you also have proofs of Adam and Eve's existence btw ?
Redherring!
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
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