Living in Non-Muslim lands: What's the excuse?

[Tariqa]

What is the excuse for Muslims that live in non-Muslims lands and have the means to leave?? What is the excuse for a Muslim to move to a non Muslim land and avoid moving to a land of Muslims??

Muslim staying in non-Muslim lands

Any Muslim that is born or residing in a non-Muslim land, what gives him the excuse to reside among corruption..??
After a man has the means to leave why does he not leave??
Is it the fact that Muslims become fat and lazy after leaving or living in a fattening environment and have no motive or are too comfortable to go??
Do the Muslims find it permissible at all in the least to live among musriks and disbeliever in the least bit???


How about the Muslims that leave their homelands to go to a non-Muslim state?? What is their excuse?? How rare is it that a man in his homeland would be oppressed in his homeland for Islam.. You hear that excuse often but how true is it that a man is being oppressed and the only land he can leave to is a country of even more evils and ill as their are no lands of Muslims to escape to?? How many use the excuse that their is no work in their lands only to relocate to a land of spiritual poverty where work is non existent for a Muslims but is wealthy in evils and immorality...?? How could these same so called Muslims make this excuse in the least??

[Malaikah]

We don't need an excuse. Living in non-Muslim lands is permissible.

The corruption argument isn't strong either. The middle east is FULL of corruption.

[BlissfullyJaded]

Out of curiosity, where do you live?

I don't have regrets about living in the West. We all do what is within our means to do and to make it seem like all Muslims in the West aren't doing much but just lazing around leading comfortable lives is an absurd generalization. Muslims tend to be well educated and yes in the upper middle class or even upper class, but chances are, their being here is helping less well of family members back in their home countries. Some do have the means to move back home, but for whatever reasons they have they can't just pack up and go back.

And it is valid reason, not an excuse, that finding work in many Muslim countries is difficult.

[Tariqa]

well we all know that a person who is so unqualified to make a statement such as it is permissible to live in Muslims lands should not speak... Is this even a question for Muslims? Tell what makes living in a non Muslim land permissible?? tell me do you see the majority of Muslims practicing this permission..?? Do they apply for this permission.. In what can you just come out and say that living in the non Muslim countries are permissible..??? In what way?? Do you think it is permissible for a Muslim to live around corruption from shirk to music, to fornication to murder??? Where do you find in Islam that this acceptable for a Muslim to endure in what way???? You shall have no proof so what would possibly make you utter such words without knowledge....



How could you say that Muslims living in non Muslim lands are helping Muslims back home??? Tell how are they helping the Muslims back home with money?? How do you think any of these Muslims in non Muslim countries make "Muslim" money?? They are obviously making non Muslim dollars in non Muslim lands.. But how?? Permissible incomes or impermissible....???

No the Muslims may not be lazying it up but do you see any of the Muslims rallying together, organizing many minority Muslims to be a voice, a means to get to a Muslim country???? Many of the Muslims think of leaving to a Muslim land as "something nice" something they would like to do... The Muslim in these non Muslim countries are making no effort to leave their home or new lands??? Nothing above and beyond.. They are sort of waiting for a chance to leave, do you see any who's actually fighting to live among the ummah????

Difficult is not an excuse.. We are to fight difficulty not just accept our miserable states..

[Woodrow]

My question:

What constitutes a Muslim Country?

I have lived in quite a few different countries several in the Mideast. I have yet to find any that could be considered Muslim countries. However I have found some excellent Islamic Cities. Makkah, and Medinah of course, but even Medinah has some enclaves within it that do not live up to Islamic standards.

Overall the most Islamic City I have visited is Fez, Morocco, also known as the "City of the never ending Masjid". Dearborn, Michigan is possibly the most Islamic City in the Western world. Austin, Dallas and Houston Texas have some very Islamic communities within them.

So does a true Islamic country exist anyplace, or is it there are enclaves of Islamic cities scattered throughout the world? I think it may be better to live in an Islamic City, even if it is not in an Islamic country, than to live in an non-Islamic city in an alleged Islamic country. Some of the least Islamic cities I know are in Islamic countries, Casablanca, Riyadh, Alexandria, Tehran for example.

In the original posters opinion, what countries do you believe are Islamic?

[north_malaysian]

How about 1,000,000 Israeli citizens who are Muslims?

I think, leaving "Israel" is bad for them...as Zionists would occupy their houses and lands and give it to the settlers .. right?

[Whatsthepoint]

How about 1,000,000 Israeli citizens who are Muslims?

I think, leaving "Israel" is bad for them...as Zionists would occupy their houses and lands and give it to the settlers .. right?

A few days ago the foreign secretary Tzipi Livni stated between the lines that they will be deported once the Palestinian state has been formed, saying the solution for Israeli Arabs lies outside Israel...

[Umar001]

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,

As-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,

The key part is, having the means.

I don't think anyone is so naive so as to miss the problems living in a non-Islamic country can bring, especially if the family is not that practicing, we see it in the U.K. in varying forms, you have

those who have totally lost Islaam, others who have partially lost it and are conforming to the way of the society,

then those who are culturally Muslim who are retaining some aspects of Islam due to their culture

and then those who want to become really practicing but due to the society find it easier to be doing bad,

then you have the practicing people who are ok but could be doing better.

Roughly speaking that is somewhat some of the ways people are. A lot of their problems could be solved if they lived in an Islamic place, though some of the above don't even want that, due to their socialisation with guys who don't have the same moral standards!

The question though does arise, where can people go, even if they had money to move?


Note: for those saying it is permissible, can you state if there are conditions or not, is it permissible for everyone or some and all times or not?

br.al-Habeshi

[KittyKat]

One could argue that a Muslim living in a non-Muslim land is setting the example for others to come to and find Allah.

Just my 2 scents.

Peace.

[Amadeus85]

When I talked with a few people from Maghreb all of them wanted to move to France, Holland or UK.

[north_malaysian]

A few days ago the foreign secretary Tzipi Livni stated between the lines that they will be deported once the Palestinian state has been formed, saying the solution for Israeli Arabs lies outside Israel...

Imagine if the European leaders telling the same thing to their Jewish citizens... that as Israel already being formed and they should be deported to Israel....

It would be "Anti-semitic!!!"

[Tariqa]

To answer the question of the first ...this is a good question..but...we hear it too often..as if..people are ignorant to what an "islamic land" is.

The truth is that when we say muslim we mean a majority populated land or a land where muslims run the governing system even if they are failing short, a bad muslim is better than the best musrik kufr indeed... No there is no perfect soceity today but we can at least make the best of the worst situation and non muslims that offer freedom do not offer islamic freedom it is only a decpetion and those same muslims are ven moreso oppresed though they know not...


We must make the best out of a bad situation and choose what is better and in our cases living with "bad muslims" is a lesser evil...

[Tariqa]

sorry to answer the question about the money issue.... yes it is true we have to find places to go..there are places that exsit or even if we cannot find thew best muslim lands to go to we can find better lands to go to then non muslim majority lands... I think that many muslims think about one particular land and then immediatly judge all other lands based off of the perception of the former.. this is a weak mentality...we must continue to strive and strive hard and one door closes continue to find other ways in.. It can be done if the muslims continue to search and not give up using the mentality that there is nowhere to go or we have so many problems.. cant is not a word right??? We can!




We can set the example of finding in allah in the lands allah has made sacred rather can we not indeed??

[S_87]

how many muslim lands are willing to accept muslims that are not of their nationality?

[Woodrow]

how many muslim lands are willing to accept muslims that are not of their nationality?

Although that is very unIslamic, it is the Truth. Although Muslims are very welcome as tourist, visitors or students, there is much reluctance to accept non-native Muslims as residents. in many countries. Some that I have found that give the cold shoulder to non-native Muslims are Iran, UAE, Saudi, Somalia, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt. Although the people are very nice and very helpful, there are barriers put up in terms of marriage, language, employment, housing. I have never tried to live in Pakistan, so I do not know., But I do not know of any Pakistan citizens that are not of Asian or Indian Ancestry. It is hard to get by in Pakistan if you do not speak Urdu, Farsi or Bangli.

[Tariqa]

Ok well this is the attitude us muslims should be disscussing how we can find a muslim land to go to before we just say there is no way or it is not fard...


Yes it is true that it is dificult to find a land that is willing to accept foreniers but it is on us muslims to fight this injustice.. We have to want a muslim land like we want our lives.. We have to search for better situations.. Im sure their are many lands closer to the heart of the umah that can at least get us one step closer but some muslims are on the other side of the world, so far away form out destination how would we get there if we keep traveling further away??? There is a way and if we cant get the best situation now then at least we can settle in a land closer to the best until we keep trying to get in to the best land and succeed....It is possible and there are lands if we keep trying and keep pushing..we can do it, and we can make it inshallalh...

[Malaikah]

well we all know that a person who is so unqualified to make a statement such as it is permissible to live in Muslims lands should not speak...

lol, who said I was making it up?

Is this even a question for Muslims?

For the millions of Muslim living in non-Muslim lands, yes, it's a very important question.

Tell what makes living in a non Muslim land permissible?? tell me do you see the majority of Muslims practicing this permission..??

Why should they?? Just because living in non-Muslims lands is halal doesn't mean everyone has to pack their bags and leave!

Do you think it is permissible for a Muslim to live around corruption from shirk to music, to fornication to murder???

Are you telling me that Muslim lands are filled with these things? Been to Dubai lately? Ever watched a Lebanese TV channel? Seen the corruption happening in Egypt?? Muslim countries are not perfect or free of sin, at all.

Where do you find in Islam that this acceptable for a Muslim to endure in what way???? You shall have no proof so what would possibly make you utter such words without knowledge....

I'm, not speaking without knowledge. Believe it or not, the opinion you follow is not the only opinion out there. Many scholars are of the opinion that it is permissible for Muslim to live in non-Muslim lands as long as they are able to practise their religion.

The proofs? I'm not a scholar, but here is a very summarised version of some of the proofs mentioned by those many scholars who consider it permissible for Muslim to live in non-Muslim lands:

1. When the Muslims were persecuted in Makkah, the Prophet phub sent a large number of them to live in Ethiopia, a land ruled by a Christian king.

2. When the Prophet pbuh moved to Madinah and established an actual Islamic state*, he never sent any messengers to tell the Muslim living in Ethiopia to comeback to Madinah, even though it was safe for them to come back.

What does that tell us? That it is permissible to live in the lands of non-Muslims, even if there is an Islamic state.

(*note: not just a country where lots of Muslim live, which is what the Muslim lands are today!)

Anyway, putting that aside, even if it is haram, it would be impossible to transport millions of Muslims that are living in non-Muslims lands to Muslims lands! Try finding a country that will take them all in the first place!

[Woodrow]

What about Islamic cities or provinces within non-Islamic Nations. The Chinese Muslims have been living in Chinese cities almost since the time of the Prophet(PBUH), they were among the earliest of Muslims, some of the oldest Masjids are in China. The Niujie Masjid in Bejing was built in 996, Islam has been in China since at least the year 650 CE or about the year 20 in the Islamic Calender, yet China is not an Islamic Nation. Would you consider them as being in a Non-Muslim land and should migrate to a Muslim Country?

Islam grows by forming Islamic enclaves within non-Muslim lands. the Enclaves become Islamic, while the country they are within remains non-Muslim. Are these enclaves in Non-Muslim lands considered living in non-Muslim land or would these enclaves be considered Muslim Land?

[Woodrow]

What is the better choice, to migrate to a Muslim land(if you can find one) or do your best to make the small area where you live Muslim Land? This seems to be what has happened in much of the world. The country with the second largest Muslim population is India, which is non-Muslim land. Yet, more Muslims live in India than in Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Dubai, and Egypt combined. I am certain many Muslims living in India will tell you that the cities or neighborhoods they live in are Muslim lands.

The country with the largest Muslim population is Indonesia. But, it does not have an Islamic form of government. The country is considered to be a Constitutional Democracy with a parliament and President. Is it a Muslim land because it has the world's largest Muslim population?

[Tariqa]

lol, who said I was making it up?


For the millions of Muslim living in non-Muslim lands, yes, it's a very important question.



Why should they?? Just because living in non-Muslims lands is halal doesn't mean everyone has to pack their bags and leave!



Are you telling me that Muslim lands are filled with these things? Been to Dubai lately? Ever watched a Lebanese TV channel? Seen the corruption happening in Egypt?? Muslim countries are not perfect or free of sin, at all.



I'm, not speaking without knowledge. Believe it or not, the opinion you follow is not the only opinion out there. Many scholars are of the opinion that it is permissible for Muslim to live in non-Muslim lands as long as they are able to practice their religion.

The proofs? I'm not a scholar, but here is a very summarized version of some of the proofs mentioned by those many scholars who consider it permissible for Muslim to live in non-Muslim lands:

1. When the Muslims were persecuted in Makkah, the Prophet phub sent a large number of them to live in Ethiopia, a land ruled by a Christian king.

2. When the Prophet pbuh moved to Madinah and established an actual Islamic state*, he never sent any messengers to tell the Muslim living in Ethiopia to comeback to Madinah, even though it was safe for them to come back.

What does that tell us? That it is permissible to live in the lands of non-Muslims, even if there is an Islamic state.

(*note: not just a country where lots of Muslim live, which is what the Muslim lands are today!)

Anyway, putting that aside, even if it is haram, it would be impossible to transport millions of Muslims that are living in non-Muslims lands to Muslims lands! Try finding a country that will take them all in the first place!

I do not think you are understanding at all. You see it is not the fact that muslims cannot live in non muslim lands, it is the fact that the same permission today is non exsitant virtually. Tell me one land you see that a Muslim can practice his religon.... Not one...so how can you say today its permissible to live in a non Muslim country when there are no countries that a Muslim can fully practice his deen...
You forgot those were olden times when they were allowed to leave, now days those same rules do not apply..

SO tell me if there is no perfect place why would you choose the worst lands to go to over better but still corrupted Muslim countires....We as Muslims must alway choose the lesser evil and with your attitude we will be doomed to be the worst Muslims and the worst lands.. Is this permissible in Islam.. i do not think so....