Can a rich Church or man or Mosques get into heaven?
Christians do not seem to live their religion as it pertains to wealth.
Matthew 19:23
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Genesis 13:2
And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.
Matthew 19:24
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
There seems to be a theme throughout scripture that says that wealth is not a good thing yet the Church amasses wealth for it’s own sake and glorification.
Can a Church that does not practice what it preaches lead us to heaven or is wealth actually a good thing.
What comes to mind is Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail.
In selecting the cup of Christ, the proper cup was the poor man’s cup. In contrast, if asked to select the cup of the Church, he would have selected the riches cup.
One has to wonder if the Church is right or if Jesus was.
Many say they have faith in Jesus but few follow His line of thought when their wealth is in question.
Would God reject our rich Church?
Is our Church imperfect because of it’s wealth?
Will God reject the rich man?
In Islam, it is our responsibility to earn and spend wealth through permissible means by spending on yourself and others that you are responsible for but not excessively.
Prophet Muhammad(saw) said:
"A slave will not be able to take a step further on the Day of Requital until he is taken to account for [the following things]: his time and how he spent it, his knowledge and how he used it, his money and how he earned and spent it, and his youth and how he passed it. (Tirmidhi).
Allah(swt) also says in Surah Baqarah verse 177:
"Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves."
In Islam, wealth belongs to Allah but Allah has entrusted it to mankind to use wisely and not wastefully. For those who have been blessed with wealth, it is a test, therefore, Muslims should strive to pass this test by not hoarding this wealth.
An important example of this would be "Zakah." Zakah is a portion of one’s wealth that should be given to the poor or to other important causes. It is the third of five pillars in Islam and obligatory for all those are financially capable.
The Qur’an warns us about the danger of piling up wealth to the extent it influences us negatively.
“Woe to every scandalmonger and backbiter
Who pileth up wealth and layeth it by
Thinking that his wealth would make him last forever
By no means! He will be sure to be thrown into that which breaks to Pieces.”
(Al-Humazah 104: 1-4)
In Surah al-Taubah, chapter 9, verse 24, Allah Ta'ala says,
“Say, if it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred, or the wealth that you have gained, the commerce in which you are fear a decline, or dwellings in which you are delight, are dearer to you than Allah or His Messenger, or striving in His cause, than wait until Allah brings about His decision; and Allah guides not to the rebellious,”
What the poor must get from the wealth of the rich is not charity but their right, of which they may be deprived from.
"And in their property was a portion due to him who begs and to him who is denied (good)." (51:19)
"And those in whose wealth there is a fixed portion, for him who begs and for him who is denied (good)." (70:24-25)
Those who spend their wealth wisely and with the intent of benefiting mankind, they are those who are successful in the sight of God.
Last edited by Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн; 06-22-2009 at 03:17 PM.
Reason: typo
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
I can't speak for Islam, but I agree with you that Christians in the wealthy West are certainly managing to ignore Jesus' teachings on the poor and wealth quite successfully.
Not just rich churches, but as individuals we do too ...
I am reminded about Jesus' advice to the rich young man to 'sell all his possessions and follow him'.
How many rich Christians are willing to do that?
Imagine the Vatican/Church of England/other wealthy churches sold their riches and gave the proceeds to the poor ...
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."
Luke 16:13
Peace glo
Here I stand.
I can do no other.
May God help me.
Amen.
Come, let us worship and bow down •
and kneel before the Lord our Maker
[Psalm 95]
what about Intrest i thought that was forbidden in christainty too?
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Ibn Abbas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I had a chance to look into the Paradise and I found that majority of the people were poor. [Sahih Muslim]
Abu Hurayrah reported that Allah's messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The poor people will enter paradise five hundred years before the rich. [Sunan al-Tirmidhi]
"I spent thirty years learning manners, and I spent twenty years learning knowledge."
Your dogma follows closely that of Christianity. I am in the decadent west and expect to see millionaires and billionaires here. I note though that many Muslims are also quite wealthy in the east. Can it be that the east does not practice their dogma any better than they do in the Christian west. Not living in the east, I may be completely wrong with my impressions. I also understand that Muslims are not supposed to lend money but that there is a queasy legal way for them to gain interest on loans but again here, my information is sketchy. Can you enlighten?
I can't speak for Islam, but I agree with you that Christians in the wealthy West are certainly managing to ignore Jesus' teachings on the poor and wealth quite successfully.
Not just rich churches, but as individuals we do too ...
I am reminded about Jesus' advice to the rich young man to 'sell all his possessions and follow him'.
How many rich Christians are willing to do that?
Imagine the Vatican/Church of England/other wealthy churches sold their riches and gave the proceeds to the poor ...
:X Bite your tongue. Can't have Churches walking their talk now.
Your dogma follows closely that of Christianity. I am in the decadent west and expect to see millionaires and billionaires here. I note though that many Muslims are also quite wealthy in the east. Can it be that the east does not practice their dogma any better than they do in the Christian west. Not living in the east, I may be completely wrong with my impressions. I also understand that Muslims are not supposed to lend money but that there is a queasy legal way for them to gain interest on loans but again here, my information is sketchy. Can you enlighten?
Regards
DL
Not sure where you made the east and west distinction as a lot of muslims are from the west - that distiction isnt very accurate - Furthermore by rich we are not just talking about the super rich but also the middle class who live like rich people. The rich man of Africa is less off then the middle class man in the US.
However rich people can also go to haven if there wealth is used properly - so its not a dogamtic rule whats so ever
Muslims are allowed to lend - Just not on intrest/usury. I'm sure christians are against usury/intrest too - It would be good if a christain could verify that. I know they were against it in the middle ages.
Last edited by Zafran; 06-22-2009 at 06:38 PM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Not sure where you made the east and west distinction as a lot of muslims are from the west - that distiction isnt very accurate - Furthermore by rich we are not just talking about the super rich but also the middle class who live like rich people. The rich man of Africa is less off then the middle class man in the US.
You are right there.
I remember hearing once that if you have as much as a bank account (even if you don't have much money), you are likely to belong the richest 10% of the world population ...
Muslims are allowed to lend - Just not on intrest/usury. I'm sure christians are against usury/intrest too - It would be good if a christain could verify that. I know they were against it in the middle ages.
As far as i know the old Jewish laws did not allow charging interest to other Israelites. (Not sure about other people)
I think you are right, that until the middle ages charging interest was frowned upon my Christians. I don't know how and why that changed, and I don't really have time to research it right now.
But on the topic of interest and poverty (and I know this is slightly off topic), here is a site which arranges small loans to entrepreneurs in developing countries ... thereby helping them to set up or improve their businesses.
You can loan as little as $25, and when the money is payed back to you, you can re-loan it to somebody else.
No interest is charged to the person lending the money.
Kiva's mission is to connect people through lending for the sake of alleviating poverty.
Kiva is the world's first person-to-person micro-lending website, empowering individuals to lend directly to unique entrepreneurs around the globe.
The people you see on Kiva's site are real individuals in need of funding - not marketing material. When you browse entrepreneurs' profiles on the site, choose someone to lend to, and then make a loan, you are helping a real person make great strides towards economic independence and improve life for themselves, their family, and their community. Throughout the course of the loan (usually 6-12 months), you can receive email journal updates and track repayments. Then, when you get your loan money back, you can relend to someone else in need.
what about Intrest i thought that was forbidden in christainty too?
It is and it used to be that only the Jews were moneylenders, I believe the Talmud allows 10% to be charged before it can be considered usury. I certainly am against usury, but you have alot of people who dont follow the tenents of their religion anymore.
It is and it used to be that only the Jews were moneylenders, I believe the Talmud allows 10% to be charged before it can be considered usury. I certainly am against usury, but you have alot of people who dont follow the tenents of their religion anymore.
good point - In History they used to teach us that the Jews were not allowed to own land so they went to the moneylending business - the christains used to frown upon usury and they used that agisnt the Jews most of the time.
when christ goes to the Jewish temple and has a go at the Phrises there - was that because they were doing Usury in the temple? (in the bible).
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Yes that would be usury because they were charging exhorbant rates to change the money to the shekels.
Thanks. So christ was against Usury - Nice.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Yes. I asked my husband about this as he is an amateur expert on Judiasm, (his 1st wife was Jewish) and told me that according to Jewish law anything above 10% is usury, but anything under that is consider acceptable due to the risk one incurrs when loaning money.
Not sure where you made the east and west distinction as a lot of muslims are from the west - that distiction isnt very accurate - Furthermore by rich we are not just talking about the super rich but also the middle class who live like rich people. The rich man of Africa is less off then the middle class man in the US.
However rich people can also go to haven if there wealth is used properly - so its not a dogamtic rule whats so ever
Muslims are allowed to lend - Just not on intrest/usury. I'm sure christians are against usury/intrest too - It would be good if a christain could verify that. I know they were against it in the middle ages.
We could write books on --used properly.
Jesus was clear about giving to the poor. He did not say to retain a few million for personal needs.
Most wealth is amassed through exploitation of labor and markets.
This makes the accumulation of great wealth immoral in my view.
Are there moral ways to amass great wealth and what are they?
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