Recently, i have come across some very ignorant people who have absolutley no idea about Islam i.e they have not read the Quran or Hadeeth. They talk trash about Islam and fail to listen to your reasoning. I can't take this sort of nonsense.
25:63 And the servants of ((Allah)) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!";
4:140 Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. For Allah will collect the hypocrites and those who defy faith - all in Hell:-
25:63 And the servants of ((Allah)) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!";
4:140 Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. For Allah will collect the hypocrites and those who defy faith - all in Hell:-
Recently, i have come across some very ignorant people who have absolutley no idea about Islam i.e they have not read the Quran or Hadeeth. They talk trash about Islam and fail to listen to your reasoning. I can't take this sort of nonsense.
What shall i do?
Jazakallah
First off, don't get angry with them, they don't know Islam...you do. Teach by example. If they see you get frustrated right when you are trying to answer them or if you instantly get angry if they insult your faith, they will be first inclined to think Muslims are all angry, or mean, or intolerant. So basically keep your cool
Second, explain your beliefs to them in a peacefull manor. People need time, some will get offended but you will notice most will come back wanting to know more. They will now realise you are the educated one, not them.
Third, if they are still mean.......kick them in the shin...they go down quicker
I'm just kidding.....no Italianguy bashing please
Keep in mind they are not ignorant, just uninformed, thats why its your duty to inform them
I'm gonna get some flack from my fellow Christians on this one......
Why not quote from scripture to show them they're wrong?
Well, it's minor things such as Allah sending only the good Muslims to heaven and condemning everyone (christians, atheist, jews etc) to hell for eternity.
They carefully search for punishments and trials set by Allah but they fail to see the infinite mercy of Allah.
For one who really loves the religion of islam, it is very difficult to sustain the anger.
I know this is a test of patients for me and they will get what they deserve.
I know this might be a typical reply, but patience is the best thing. And by patience, I don't mean ignoring what they say, I mean keeping your cool when you're reasoning with them.
If they don't want to listen,then tell them that their arguments are futile if they are too afraid of being contradicted. Sub7anAllah. I came alot of people who are ignorant about Islam,and all of it's subcategories...such a justice and hijab. With patience and many examples, along with facts that they can relate to, I make them see the beauty in our religion,well I hope that's what I am doing.
You tell them the truth and they can take or leave whatever they want from it. Your duty is to put it(the truth) out there.
After a person turns away from the company of those [ignorant associates], and he turns to the company of those who are absent in person - but whose bounties and good influence continue to exist in the world, he would then inquire a new zeal and a new direction, and he would become stranger among the people - even if he be a relative or a close acquaintance.
This would make him a dear stranger to people. He can clearly see the obscurity that they suffer, but they cannot see the splendor which he enjoys. He excuses them as much as he can, while enjoining and advising them to do good with all of his power. Thus he looks at them with two eyes:
With one eye, he recognizes Allah's commands and prohibitions. Based of this, he advises or warns them, and befriends and disowns them, giving them their rights and requiring his.
With the other eye, he recognizes Allah's Decree and Measure. Based on this, he sympathizes with them; he makes du`aa' (supplications) for them; he asks Allah (ta`aalaa) to forgive them; and he seeks excuses for them in matters that do not involve violation of Allah's commands and His Shar` (Allah's Divine Law). He engulfs them with kindness, compassion and forgiveness, heeding to Allah's command [to His Messenger (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam)]:
"Show forgiveness, enjoin what is good, and turn away from the foolish." (Al-A`raaf 7:199)
If a person abides by this aayah, it would suffice and cure him. It calls for:
Good manners in dealing with people: by forgiving them and showing them compassion to the limits of one's character and nature.
Fulfilling Allah's rights in people by enjoining what is good, which applies to matters that the minds attest to their goodness and merit, based on what Allah has commanded.
Avoiding their evil: to ward off the harm resulting from their ignorance, without trying to avenge himself.
How else can a person attain perfection? And what policy and behavior can be better in this world than this? If a man tries to consider every evil reaching him from people (I mean a true evil that results in a loss of honor before Allah (Ta`aalaa)), he will find that it arises from neglecting one or more of these three matters. If he abides by them all, then whatever is inflicted on him by people will be good, even if it appears to be evil. Only good can result from enjoining good, even if it be encased in a situation of evil and harm. Allah (Ta`aalaa) said;
"Verily! Those who brought forth the great slander [against `Aa'ishah (radhiallahu `anhaa)] are a group among you. Consider it not a bad thing for you. Nay, it is good for you…" [An-Noor 24:11]
And He addressed His Messenger (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) by saying:
"So forgive them, ask Allah to forgive them, and consult them in the affair. Then when you have taken a decision, put your full trust in Allah." [Aal `Imraan 3:159]
This aayah instructs the Messenger (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) to fulfill Allah's rights and the people's rights. When people do wrong, they would either be violating Allah's limits or harming His Messenger personally. If they harm the Messenger (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam), he shoud respond by forgiving them. But if they overstep Allah's limits, then he (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) should ask Allah (Ta`aala) to forgive them and to soften their hearts. Also, he (sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam) should extract their opinions by consulting them, because this tends to make them more obedient and willing to advise. Once he forms his decision, he should seek advice no more, but rather put his trust in Allah and go forth to fulfill what he decided, for Allah loves those who trust Him.
And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.” [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]
Well, it's minor things such as Allah sending only the good Muslims to heaven and condemning everyone (christians, atheist, jews etc) to hell for eternity.
But that's true.... Perhaps the argument there is that it isn't too hard to be a good muslim and that they should try, instead of crying about it. They'll be better people for it.
They carefully search for punishments and trials set by Allah but they fail to see the infinite mercy of Allah.
For one who really loves the religion of islam, it is very difficult to sustain the anger.
I know this is a test of patients for me and they will get what they deserve.
Yeah, don't sweat it.
Why do you love Islam? This would be your answer to them.
Well, it's minor things such as Allah sending only the good Muslims to heaven and condemning everyone (christians, atheist, jews etc) to hell for eternity.
Perhaps I misread, but what you are saying there is not a minor thing. It has many deep and resonating moral issues to a non-muslims. Particularly atheists and Jews. Christians are less likely to have an issue with it, since they are likely to believe their own version of hell to be true.
Why do you think that an ideology that welcomes eternal suffering to large groups of people would not be controversial, or have many deep ethical problems to those who disagree?
^ethics/morality is not defined by humans or derived using their intellect. Hence, in Prophetic world, the belief in hell-fire has no ethical problem rather they deem it as an act of God's Justice and Mercy. However, when we come to 'arrogant' world of atheists and philosophers then everything is unethical if it doesn't work what atheist/philosopher X personally deems acceptable. This problem is deep rooted in believing that one can derive truth and falsehood using his own limited intellect, knowledge and wisdom.
It always makes me wonder why atheists are so obsessed about the concept of hell-fire? Why same logic is not applied to heaven?
عن تميم بن أوس الداري أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: قال الدين النصيحة ثلاثا قلنا لمن يا رسول الله قال لله ولكتابه ولرسوله ولأئمة المسلمين وعامتهم - رواه مسلم
^ethics/morality is not defined by humans or derived using their intellect. Hence, in Prophetic world, the belief in hell-fire has no ethical problem rather they deem it as an act of God's Justice and Mercy.
I agree this is often what many Muslims and many Christians believe concerning morality. However, to declare disagreements with it as 'minor' is to really understate the gravity of what is being proposed. It is to declare that everyone who is not of a specific world-view, or who falls short of a specific standard (set up the conditions at your theological leisure) is to be tortured for eternity. This is often also declared with such cheerfulness and such confidence of righteousness that can you honestly, for one moment not believe that it could revile those whom it targets, or is used to target?
You can call it an act of justice if you like, but from a secular humanist perspective, or indeed some religious perspectives - it comes across as sadistic, cruel and pointless at best. At worst it can be a stop-gap to faith in the belief system that it is a part of.
However, when we come to 'arrogant' world of atheists and philosophers then everything is unethical if it doesn't work what atheist/philosopher X personally deems acceptable. This problem is deep rooted in believing that one can derive truth and falsehood using his own limited intellect, knowledge and wisdom.
I've already made a large response to your misunderstandings on this point in another thread. It was coincidentally, about hellfire.
Just so you know, someone claiming that something is wrong because it is disagreeable to them for whatever reason(s) is an almost universal claim made by the devoutly religious and rabid anti-theist alike. It is an all too human affair and a consequence of our ability to declare what ought in our communities.
It always makes me wonder why atheists are so obsessed about the concept of hell-fire? Why same logic is not applied to heaven?
First of all, I'm not obsessed with it.
Second of all, the question is nonsensical. What logic do you think is being applied to hellfire here, and how would it be applied to heaven?
well, this is off-topic and maybe mods can move the posts to right place
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I agree this is often what many Muslims and many Christians believe concerning morality.
it is not only a belief but what rationally makes sense to those who have NOT confined themselves to their own arrogant world in which they don't recognize their shortcoming.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
It is to declare that everyone who is not of a specific world-view, or who falls short of a specific standard (set up the conditions at your theological leisure) is to be tortured for eternity.
like you said, you also believe in the same thing and propagate it except that your wording is bit different. Now, which view is correct then at least in our world view we can find it out but not in yours. So according to your world view we are stuck with no solution.
secondly, our standards are set by the Creator of this world. He created the world and set the laws, like it or hate it, it is not going to change anything. It is not your world where you can have monoply of your understanding and tell others what should be the laws. He set the laws and those obey will receive eternal happiness and those who don't will get eternal punishment.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
This is often also declared with such cheerfulness and such confidence of righteousness that can you honestly, for one moment not believe that it could revile those whom it targets, or is used to target?
you don't believe in hell so why are you so bothered about other people's actions?
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
You can call it an act of justice if you like, but from a secular humanist perspective, or indeed some religious perspectives - it comes across as sadistic, cruel and pointless at best. At worst it can be a stop-gap to faith in the belief system that it is a part of.
that is fine but humanist perspective is not the source of morality nor any other human perspective.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I've already made a large response to your misunderstandings on this point in another thread. It was coincidentally, about hellfire.
I don't recall it, could you please point me?
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Just so you know, someone claiming that something is wrong because it is disagreeable to them for whatever reason(s) is an almost universal claim made by the devoutly religious and rabid anti-theist alike.
less straw man and more common sense. At least, in Islamic world, we don't say something is wrong because we don't agree with it. Our methodology is not same as yours and we don't relay on human understanding of right and wrong.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
First of all, I'm not obsessed with it.
never said you were. as far how true is your statement then all we have to do look for you posts on this board. And I'm sure good portion of your speech on this board is discussing this topic. Whatever, I don't care whether you are obsessed or not but many atheists are.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Second of all, the question is nonsensical. What logic do you think is being applied to hellfire here, and how would it be applied to heaven?
nonsensical? you don't even know the context of my question and you go as far making a baseless claim - that's quite rational of you, isn't it? There are number of problems I have with this approach of atheists:
1 - If eternal torture is irrational due to finite crime and infinite punishment issue then why does it seem you people have no problem accepting finite work with infinite reward?
2 - If both concepts are irrational to you people then why there is so much talk about hell?
anyway, bro Abdul Fatteh had a ong discussion with you and I don't think there is any benefit in continuing this discussion with you
عن تميم بن أوس الداري أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: قال الدين النصيحة ثلاثا قلنا لمن يا رسول الله قال لله ولكتابه ولرسوله ولأئمة المسلمين وعامتهم - رواه مسلم
it is not only a belief but what rationally makes sense to those who have NOT confined themselves to their own arrogant world in which they don't recognize their shortcoming.
The irony is breathtaking.
You declare the moral world view of others "arrogant" for not accepting your moral world view with compunction. In any case, I hardly consider a world view which deliberately tells us to forgo our faculties and embrace some unknown divine arbiter for guidance as intuitive. Perhaps it is a small step away for a theist, but for an atheist it is completely impossible to accept such claims.
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
like you said, you also believe in the same thing and propagate it except that your wording is bit different. Now, which view is correct then at least in our world view we can find it out but not in yours. So according to your world view we are stuck with no solution.
What are you talking about? I don't believe in 'eternal torture' for the wretched. I don't accept, and nor would I in any situation agree with absolute punishment for the misinformed, or the foolish.
I'm not sure you know what my world view is. Why do you think I believe in eternal torture? I'm a secular humanist with libertarian leanings.
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
secondly, our standards are set by the Creator of this world. He created the world and set the laws, like it or hate it, it is not going to change anything.
This is your moral philosophy? Obedience? I am disappointed, but not entirely surprised. This is the unfortunate confusion of absolute morality that apparently far too many theists have. The first is a foundational confusion of the difference between ought (a moral term, based in what we should do) and is (a factual term, based on what is real). Muslims and Christians believe that the two are inseparable, and frequently invoke the fury of the naturalistic fallacy to this end. The idea of nature decreeing what is right, or what happens naturally as a guideline for what we ought not comes around here far too often as a result of this. I think you actually have already imposed your confusion of the terms onto me already and then falsely made claims over my morality as a consequence of it.
Secondly, the problem is rather deeper than you might imagine. You set up a moral world view rooted in obedience, and grounded in subservience. The term 'right' becomes 'obedience', the term 'wrong' becomes 'disobedience'. The term 'justice' itself after this loses all coherent meaning. Everything by your logic here is all by, because of, and for God. You only do right, or 'obey' what is right because God says so. You do not believe, by this logic, that murder is incorrect because of the suffering it causes to others, or the loss of life involved - but you disagree with it just because God says so. This philosophy is the greatest architect of evil ever inflicted onto mankind. It has been and is still partial to today unleashing destruction on others on the very premise. It is the motivation of serial killers, who declare that God has told them to set up a hit list. It is responsible for the abuse of altruism and empathy by people of power, manipulating them into emotional tools useful only for serving the will of God at the collateral damage of life. Someone who believes truly that all moral principles are worthless, and that the only moral maxim is to follow God's orders is not and cannot be interested in humanity, or the welfare of others but only interested in the requirements of God.
This, despite claims to the contrary is unflinchingly arbitrary and subjective. All of your world view could change based on a single order or declaration from God. Let us propose hypothetically that God came down and declared that you were to force others to convert to Islam on pain of death. Proposing that happened: What would you do? Would you accept it? Why or why not? I am genuinely interested in your response. What you do respond with will confirm how steadfast you are in your convictions to the unquestionable standards of God.
It is not your world where you can have monoply of your understanding and tell others what should be the laws. He set the laws and those obey will receive eternal happiness and those who don't will get eternal punishment.
Indeed, you are already one step forward. You have shown you are perfectly capable, without compunction of accepting eternal torture for no reason other that God declares it so.
you don't believe in hell so why are you so bothered about other people's actions?
I'm not particularly, unless they direct them towards me. Do you understand why people might have an issue with the concept of hell?
that is fine but humanist perspective is not the source of morality nor any other human perspective.
This is not in common ground. I don't believe that there is a 'source of morality' outside of intelligent life.
I don't recall it, could you please point me?
It was in the Clarifications On Islam section, in a thread about hellfire I believe.
less straw man and more common sense. At least, in Islamic world, we don't say something is wrong because we don't agree with it. Our methodology is not same as yours and we don't relay on human understanding of right and wrong.
Yes you do.
At least passively. You accept the moral world view of Islam because you agree with it, and reject all others because you disagree with them.
nonsensical? you don't even know the context of my question and you go as far making a baseless claim - that's quite rational of you, isn't it? There are number of problems I have with this approach of atheists:
1 - If eternal torture is irrational due to finite crime and infinite punishment issue then why does it seem you people have no problem accepting finite work with infinite reward?
God is considered to be omnibenevolent.
It would not be inconsistent to get such rewards.
2 - If both concepts are irrational to you people then why there is so much talk about hell?
What do you mean? In general, or on this forum? I talk about it because I find hell, the idea of hell to be an immoral concept.
anyway, bro Abdul Fatteh had a ong discussion with you and I don't think there is any benefit in continuing this discussion with you
Its up to you.
The post I responded to was in that thread by the way.
Recently, i have come across some very ignorant people who have absolutley no idea about Islam i.e they have not read the Quran or Hadeeth. They talk trash about Islam and fail to listen to your reasoning. I can't take this sort of nonsense.
What shall i do?
Jazakallah
Surah Al Baqarah
(5) As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. (6) Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
I also want to know how we should deal with people who don't pray intentionally? Who don't care what the other has advised him/her to do?
25:36 And the true servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk the earth with humility and when the ignorant address them, they respond with words of peace.
Perhaps I misread, but what you are saying there is not a minor thing. It has many deep and resonating moral issues to a non-muslims. Particularly atheists and Jews. Christians are less likely to have an issue with it, since they are likely to believe their own version of hell to be true.
Why do you think that an ideology that welcomes eternal suffering to large groups of people would not be controversial, or have many deep ethical problems to those who disagree?
Three words:
God's Infinite Mercy
Take advantage, avoid going to hell. Simple!
Last edited by Life_Is_Short; 01-15-2010 at 02:51 AM.
Amen to that sister! He needs God...allot! God wants him yet he denies Him? Why? I want this brother to meet me in Heaven but i fear i will not see him.
Wellllllllllllll.........hope you got good cell service down there atheist people. I will send you a text message, God bless. And don't forget to bring sunscreen
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.......kick them in the shin...they go down quicker
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