Saudi women allowed to argue in courts

[CosmicPathos]

Saudi Arabia is planning to bring in a new law to allow women lawyers to argue cases in court for the first time.

Justice Minister Mohammed al-Eissa said the law was part of King Abdullah's plan to develop the legal system.

The law - to be issued "in the coming days" - would allow women to appear in court on family-related cases, including divorce and child custody.
At the moment, they can only work behind the scenes in government and court offices.

The new legislation will also allow Saudi women to complete certain procedures without the presence of a witness.

"In accordance with the new law, women will be able to complete their preliminary procedures with notaries by just presenting their IDs," said Ministry of Justice official Osama al-Mirdas, according to Arab News.
Under a system of male guardianship, Saudi Arabian women are required to be kept separate from men they are not related to.

All are veiled to a greater or lesser degree in public, they are not allowed to drive, and women under 45 must receive permission from a male when they travel. (the writer is presenting this as his/her lament. I hope if he/she dies as a kaafir then he/she has the same lament)

Opportunities for education and employment are also dependent on male guardianship. (Not that it is not in the liberating West)

But a number of steps have been taken to ease restrictions - for instance women are now allowed to stay in hotels unaccompanied. (yea, zina usually occurs when a guy or a girl rent out a hotel room and the two love-birds meet, at least back home and even in the West. Does not justify ban of women renting a hotel room but I am not sure what Islamic ruling would be)

Last year, a senior cleric was removed after criticising a new mixed-sex science and technology university. (Yes, HAIL the Al-Saud Shayateen. No, you cant criticize or rebel against the ruler, Prophet (pbuh) said so man!)

The cleric, Sheikh Saad al-Shethry, had described the mixing of sexes in any university as evil and a great sin. (Mixing of sexes is indeed a great evil. But I would not trust Sheikh Al-Shethry. He gave a fatwa against co-education in KAUST and weeks later he allowed co-education saying that its justified in this context, after the pressure from the Al-Saud shayateen)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8526862.stm

Do you guys have any comments? Italics are my comments above.

[heavenlyspot]

It's definitely hard to comment on the issue when there are so many different opinions on the matter. There are many laws in Saudi prohibiting women from doing certain things. However a lot of Muslim people I talk to agree that it's somewhat even against Islam to prevent them from participating in society in the simplest ways.

On the other hand, many Muslims see the immense benefits of these laws. Either way- one thing us foreign Muslims (ones living in the West) sometimes forget is that most people living in Saudi Arabia are rich. Meaning, just because a woman cannot drive doesn't mean she has to take the bus everywhere. They have drivers and helpers around the house (not that everyone is rich ofcourse).

[CosmicPathos]

It's definitely hard to comment on the issue when there are so many different opinions on the matter. There are many laws in Saudi prohibiting women from doing certain things. However a lot of Muslim people I talk to agree that it's somewhat even against Islam to prevent them from participating in society in the simplest ways.

On the other hand, many Muslims see the immense benefits of these laws. Either way- one thing us foreign Muslims (ones living in the West) sometimes forget is that most people living in Saudi Arabia are rich. Meaning, just because a woman cannot drive doesn't mean she has to take the bus everywhere. They have drivers and helpers around the house (not that everyone is rich ofcourse).

Hmm but these laws in Saudi have a backing from the religious people who are known as scholars in Saudi and the West. Example being the past scholars such as Sh Bin Baz and others. The Shura had the fatwa of banning of camera phones in Saudi I believe back in 2004.

Can you explain which of these laws which prohibit women from certain things are contradictory to islam as seen from the lens of a Western Muslim?

[heavenlyspot]

Yes, that's why I'm not totally opposed to the laws. Surely these scholars and shaikhs see the wisdom behind their laws.

I guess living so long in a non-Muslim country shapes your thinking SubhanAllah.

[Lynx]

Saudi Arabia is planning to bring in a new law to allow women lawyers to argue cases in court for the first time.

Justice Minister Mohammed al-Eissa said the law was part of King Abdullah's plan to develop the legal system.

The law - to be issued "in the coming days" - would allow women to appear in court on family-related cases, including divorce and child custody.
At the moment, they can only work behind the scenes in government and court offices.

The new legislation will also allow Saudi women to complete certain procedures without the presence of a witness.

"In accordance with the new law, women will be able to complete their preliminary procedures with notaries by just presenting their IDs," said Ministry of Justice official Osama al-Mirdas, according to Arab News.
Under a system of male guardianship, Saudi Arabian women are required to be kept separate from men they are not related to.

All are veiled to a greater or lesser degree in public, they are not allowed to drive, and women under 45 must receive permission from a male when they travel. (the writer is presenting this as his/her lament. I hope if he/she dies as a kaafir then he/she has the same lament)

Opportunities for education and employment are also dependent on male guardianship. (Not that it is not in the liberating West)

But a number of steps have been taken to ease restrictions - for instance women are now allowed to stay in hotels unaccompanied. (yea, zina usually occurs when a guy or a girl rent out a hotel room and the two love-birds meet, at least back home and even in the West. Does not justify ban of women renting a hotel room but I am not sure what Islamic ruling would be)

Last year, a senior cleric was removed after criticising a new mixed-sex science and technology university. (Yes, HAIL the Al-Saud Shayateen. No, you cant criticize or rebel against the ruler, Prophet (pbuh) said so man!)

The cleric, Sheikh Saad al-Shethry, had described the mixing of sexes in any university as evil and a great sin. (Mixing of sexes is indeed a great evil. But I would not trust Sheikh Al-Shethry. He gave a fatwa against co-education in KAUST and weeks later he allowed co-education saying that its justified in this context, after the pressure from the Al-Saud shayateen)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8526862.stm

Do you guys have any comments? Italics are my comments above.

So do you think women should or should not be allowed to drive?

[CosmicPathos]

So do you think women should or should not be allowed to drive?

In an Islamic state, I do think they should be allowed to drive in the absence of a mehram companion. They cannot however "travel," unless they have a male mehram accompanying them. Emergencies excepted.

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/9280/women%20outside

[titus]

In an Islamic state, I do think they should be allowed to drive in the absence of a mehram companion.

Out of curiosity, would this rule apply to non-Muslim women also in an Islamic state?

[CosmicPathos]

Out of curiosity, would this rule apply to non-Muslim women also in an Islamic state?

yes, non-Muslims in an Islamic state do not get special treatment. They are not above the law.

[ardianto]

Saudi Arabia is planning to bring in a new law to allow women lawyers to argue cases in court for the first time.

Justice Minister Mohammed al-Eissa said the law was part of King Abdullah's plan to develop the legal system.

The law - to be issued "in the coming days" - would allow women to appear in court on family-related cases, including divorce and child custody.
At the moment, they can only work behind the scenes in government and court offices.

The new legislation will also allow Saudi women to complete certain procedures without the presence of a witness.

"In accordance with the new law, women will be able to complete their preliminary procedures with notaries by just presenting their IDs," said Ministry of Justice official Osama al-Mirdas, according to Arab News.
Under a system of male guardianship, Saudi Arabian women are required to be kept separate from men they are not related to.

All are veiled to a greater or lesser degree in public, they are not allowed to drive, and women under 45 must receive permission from a male when they travel.
Opportunities for education and employment are also dependent on male guardianship.

But a number of steps have been taken to ease restrictions - for instance women are now allowed to stay in hotels unaccompanied.

Last year, a senior cleric was removed after criticising a new mixed-sex science and technology university.

The cleric, Sheikh Saad al-Shethry, had described the mixing of sexes in any university as evil and a great sin.

After the Italics has gone, now what is your comment on this article, bro, sis ?.

[Supreme]

Saudi Arabia is giving women a basic human right?

Madness. What next? Maybe it might give women more rights- what then? It's unthinkable.

[CosmicPathos]

After the Italics has gone, now what is your comment on this article, bro, sis ?.

what do you mean?

[Lynx]

In an Islamic state, I do think they should be allowed to drive in the absence of a mehram companion. They cannot however "travel," unless they have a male mehram accompanying them. Emergencies excepted.

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/9280/women%20outside

I See.

You quote from Islamqa which is interesting. What are your feelings on this?

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/45880/saudi%20women%20drive

You will have to scroll down a bit to get to the part about Women driving where ibn baaz and uthaymeen are being quoted.

[CosmicPathos]

I See.

You quote from Islamqa which is interesting. What are your feelings on this?

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/45880/saudi%20women%20drive

You will have to scroll down a bit to get to the part about Women driving where ibn baaz and uthaymeen are being quoted.

I dont disagree with their rulings. They are speaking for the people of their country within a specific social milieu and culture i.e. An-Najd.

[Samkurd]

The title of this thread makes me laugh..

People are saying this as if its some sort of achievement that woman can now, in the year 2010, be allowed to vote.

I think Saudi Arabia should stop living in the olden times and understand that women, just like men, are humans too.

I hear people say "Well its not against women, its so that men do not get involved" or for things like how men and women are separated at dining facilities "Well i thought of it as keeping the men segregated not the other way round" for the purpose of men hitting on women..

How about Saudi Arabia just teaches their men to just be CIVILIZED human beings, not power tripping, ego hungry losers.

From,

A middle eastern, muslim male.

[CosmicPathos]

The title of this thread makes me laugh..

People are saying this as if its some sort of achievement that woman can now, in the year 2010, be allowed to vote.

I think Saudi Arabia should stop living in the olden times and understand that women, just like men, are humans too.

I hear people say "Well its not against women, its so that men do not get involved" or for things like how men and women are separated at dining facilities "Well i thought of it as keeping the men segregated not the other way round" for the purpose of men hitting on women..

How about Saudi Arabia just teaches their men to just be CIVILIZED human beings, not power tripping, ego hungry losers.

From,

A middle eastern, muslim male.

voting is haram.

[جوري]

^^ I agree with that..so far I have seen two fataws from sheikh uhtymeen and frankly I disagree with them. scholars make mistakes, I don't think that his fatwa is appropriate for najd now or during any time. During the prophet time, did khwala bint al azwar not ride a horse along side khalid ibn ilwaleed to save her brother? did the women not voice their 'vote' to prophet Mohammad (PBUH) I am not a scholar, but I think a little common sense goes along way.

[جوري]

voting is haram. You are a frustrated middle eastern, muslim male who is influenced by the West while sitting in some cave and probably were born in some cave.

what does مبايعة mean to you? have you seen this term in the Quran? and did you see women partake in that?

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُبَايِعُونَكَ إِنَّمَا يُبَايِعُونَ اللَّهَ يَدُ اللَّهِ فَوْقَ أَيْدِيهِمْ فَمَن نَّكَثَ فَإِنَّمَا يَنكُثُ عَلَى نَفْسِهِ وَمَنْ أَوْفَى بِمَا عَاهَدَ عَلَيْهُ اللَّهَ فَسَيُؤْتِيهِ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا (48:10)

[CosmicPathos]

what does مبايعة mean to you? have you seen this term in the Quran? and did you see women partake in that?

Voting as it is done in a secular democratic society. I did not say anything about free-will in giving allegiance (vote?) to any Islamic leader which one deems to be appropriate for leading the ummah. Also regarding the "voting" of the Khulafa rashideen, none of them advertised that he wanted to be the leader as is commonly done where we live. On the contrary, Umar (ra) did not want his responsibility as a leader. We cannot equate two entirely different systems. And as you might have seen, I am strictly opposed to Saudi Kingship and do not consider that Islamic as well. But that guys comments appeared as a reflection of infatuation with the West which is unfortunately common among people living back home. We live here and I am sure you also know the reality. Grass is greener on the other side.

w salam

[جوري]

Voting as it is done in a secular democratic society. I did not say anything about free-will in giving allegiance (vote?) to any Islamic leader which one deems to be appropriate for leading the ummah.

w salam

within the Islamic tenets women were allowed and are allowed to voice their needs and concerns this was the deal millenniums ago, did you not know of women yelling at Umab ibn ilkhtab (RA) question is why are things further back to pre-Islamic Arabia? to the days of jahilya now.. why are people so afraid to speak lest they be deemed less than ideal Muslims? Sob7an Allah..

[Samkurd]

voting is haram. You are a frustrated middle eastern, muslim male who is influenced by the West while sitting in some cave and probably were born in some cave.

Frustrated for voicing an opinion? Do not try and insult me because im giving the other end of the argument, learn how to be mature if you wish to participate in a discussion and handle both sides like an adult.